Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

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skatingguy

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Agree, TUEs are not given out like candy. I think what KaoriFan may be referring to was the perception by the Russians that some TUEs to Western athletes were for medications like stimulants for ADHD, which are completely banned in Russia (but obviously 100% legitimate for ADHD).
That speaks more to the culture of doping in Russia than it does issues with the anti-doping system. Russian sporting authorities, and politicians have using the TUE's, even though they are available to all athletes with appropriate documentation, as a way to gaslight their people and make this a 'the world vs Russia' rather than an issue with the sporting culture in Russia.
 
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altai_rose

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That speaks more to the culture of doping in Russia than it does issues with the anti-doping system. Russian sporting authorities, and politicians have using the TUE's, even though they are available to all athletes with appropriate documentation, as a way to gaslight there people and make this a 'the world vs Russia' rather than an issue with the sporting culture in Russia.
Eh, I think it speaks more to the lack of understanding of ADHD and its treatment in Russia.... but now we are drifting way off topic.
 

KaoriFan

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I don't. TUE's are not given out like candy, and thanks to the Russian hacking in 2016, we know that not all TUE's are granted. Doping rules were created to discourage cheating, not having athletes avoid medical treatment for documented medical conditions, or injuries.

Here's CNN article from 2016:

But leading anti-doping experts and sport scientists say the current system could be manipulated.

“There is the potential, no doubt, for some organizations to use that to their advantage by trying to encourage athletes to indicate medical conditions which they may not actually have,” Michele Verroken, founder of Sporting Integrity, told CNN.

“It is a potential area of risk and needs to be managed properly. The danger is that we end up with suspicion which is sad because people have exploited situations like this and they don’t have severe heart conditions or asthma."



The mere suspicion can cause lack of trust between countries.

So why do Russians have lack of trust? In some sports the testing rules have been changed suddenly in the offseason to target medication used by their athletes (Sharapova). Other times, western athletes get TUEs exemptions, some of them are suspicious, some of them maybe cultural difference. This cause the Russians to have contempt for the doping and testing process. They don't trust it, they think it's a farce, so they treat it like a farce. Whoever control the testing control the sport.

Anyone can say the TUEs exemptions are all legit and nobody cheat the system that way, but one person might believe that and another person might think it sounds the same as dopers always claim they never failed a drug test.

Even when 35 and 40 year old athletes continue to dominate their professional sports. Nope, definitely no corruption of testing controls going on there. :rolleyes:

I don't think Olympics is the right place to fight this issue. It's not fair to the other athletes. I don't even know if exemptions are a problem in skating specifically, they may not be. But I think it's definitely a problem in sports in general, and then all you need is for the Russians to feel they are being treated unfairly, and they are going to take what they feel like are appropriate reactions. I wish they didn't do it at the Olympics, fight in the offseason and then boycott if you are still not happy, but here we are.

They are also not innocent. They got away with cheating in 2014 and since they got away with it, then they push too far and now they are the guilty one. It's all so tiring. I'm sad for the other athletes, Kamila should not skate, but in the offseason, I hope everyone can reflect on what they can do differently to restore trust and work towards a more honest playing field, not just blame the bogeyman.
 

skatingguy

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The mere suspicion can cause lack of trust between countries.

So why do Russians have lack of trust?
It's not about trust - that's a propaganda line from the Russian government, and parroted by Russian sporting officials. It fits a narrative that the Putin regime would like the people of Russia to believe so they use it. If another narrative worked better that'd use that. They don't care about doping, or the athletes, they just want sports to glorify the regime, and when something tarnishes that affect they want to turn the issue so that it's about Mother Russia as victim. That's what nationalist, autocratic regimes do.
In some sports the testing rules have been changed suddenly in the offseason to target medication used by their athletes (Sharapova). Other times, western athletes get TUEs exemptions, some of them are suspicious, some of them maybe cultural difference. This cause the Russians to have contempt for the doping and testing process. They don't trust it, they think it's a farce, so they treat it like a farce. Whoever control the testing control the sport.
If the medication was used for legitimate medical reason they could have applied for a TUE, but they didn't because they back up the use of the drug. If we use Sharapova as a specific example, she was not even reporting the medication on her medical disclosure forms when the drug was not banned.
Anyone can say the TUEs exemptions are all legit and nobody cheat the system that way, but one person might believe that and another person might think it sounds the same as dopers always claim they never failed a drug test.
Never said that no one had ever cheated, but the issue is that the Russians repeatedly invoke TUE's as the equivalent to doping rather than dealing with their own issues.
Even when 35 and 40 year old athletes continue to dominate their professional sports. Nope, definitely no corruption of testing controls going on there. :rolleyes:
Professional sports - particularly North American teams sports - are very different animals compared to most Olympic sports. They don't have the same controls because they are not subject to the WADA code. That being said a lot of things have changed over the years in professional sports, particularly the amount of money at stake.
They are also not innocent. They got away with cheating in 2014 and since they got away with it, then they push too far and now they are the guilty one. It's all so tiring. I'm sad for the other athletes, Kamila should not skate, but in the offseason, I hope everyone can reflect on what they can do differently to restore trust and work towards a more honest playing field, not just blame the bogeyman.
I'm in favour of punishing the guilty party in this case, as well as for the doping scandal from the early part of the last decade but that means that the Russians have to take some responsibility for the problem in their sporting community. They are not the only country where this is an issue, but they are the largest, and most frequent so they get a lot of attention for it.
 

Mugs

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Excellent point. They went out of their way to not apply the WADA code and emphasized her age as a reason for doing so, thus seeing her as a little girl who needs to be protected from harm and not as a legitimate Olympic athlete and also dismissed all the other competitors competing in the Womens event because somewhere deep down, they’re just like “It’s womens figure skating, it’s not a real sport so who cares about fair play? They’re all little girls anyway, right? It’s basically like a costume party.”

The irony is, by deciding Kamila needed to be "protected," CAS has pushed her right back into the arms of those who are doing her actual physical harm. I mean, this is beyond outrageous.
 

MacMadame

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In some sports the testing rules have been changed suddenly in the offseason to target medication used by their athletes (Sharapova).
Except that particular drug was not added to the banned list suddenly. There was plenty of notice, plenty of communication as well including communicating a cutoff date where you shouldn't take if you wanted to test clean on Jan 1 when it became banned.

And when that cutoff date turned out to be wrong, WADA didn't throw the book at athletes who got caught up but adjusted.

Sharapova's case was completely different because she kept taking if after Jan 1 and she never got a TUE or even put it on her disclosure form.

I'm in favour of punishing the guilty party in this case, as well as for the doping scandal from the early part of the last decade but that means that the Russians have to take some responsibility for the problem in their sporting community. They are not the only country where this is an issue, but they are the largest, and most frequent so they get a lot of attention for it.
They get attention because they were engaged in state-sponsored doping. If your government is helping you dope, you don't have to worry about testing positive. It's like when China helped gymnasts fake their ages by providing official birth certificates. Or way back when East Germany was doping athletes and no one could catch them.

It's bad when a training center dopes. But it's harder to get away with it if they don't have the support of their government and/or their sports foundation and doping organization. Lance Armstrong got away with it because his failed test(s) were hidden by his sports federation. IMO not only should he have been banned but they should have been penalized as well for helping him evade detection.
 

skatingguy

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It's bad when a training center dopes. But it's harder to get away with it if they don't have the support of their government and/or their sports foundation and doping organization. Lance Armstrong got away with it because his failed test(s) were hidden by his sports federation. IMO not only should he have been banned but they should have been penalized as well for helping him evade detection.
We've never really figured out how to do institutional responsibility. All our legal institutions, and our sense of justice is about punishing guilty parties, and compensating victims, but when it comes to institutional responsibility it doesn't fit within those narrow parameters. Cycling is one of those sports with a deep history of doping that crosses national boundaries to the point where it was the norm, and those not doping were in the minority, and also at the back of the pack, so it's not surprising that that level of corruption would rise into the organization that runs the sport. UCI (Union Cycliste Internationale) is so corrupt, and morally vacant that they gave an award to Turkmenistan's authoritarian leader Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedow in 2019, and awarded the country the 2021 Track World Championships. The event was later moved to France because of COVID restrictions, though Berimuhamedow maintains that there has never been a single COVID case in the country.
 
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Dobre

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Why risk team gold and they are already on probation they didn’t need Valieva to win team gold.
I've read this here a bunch of times & I need to argue with it. The Russian Federation did not know they didn't need Valieva to win team gold. We don't even know they didn't need her to win team gold, but Russia certainly didn't know it at the time. Scherbakova was a hot mess in her free skate at Russian Nationals. Trusova has had injury rumors swirling around her all season. Kondratiuk lost to Jin, Kvitelashvili, and Grassl in the short and the free during the men's event & we all knew that was possible during the team event, just as we all knew it was possible that Vincent or Nathan could defeat even Japan in the men's free. Canada could have missed the final flight altogether and given the U.S. pair team a better shot at a higher finish or have imploded for that matter. Karen or Mariah could have finished 3rd as expected or even higher with help from a miss by one of the top ladies, as happened at Worlds. The possibility was there, even with Valieva skating clean. It would certainly have been there without her skating. China could have put in Sui & Han in the pairs free. And none of this takes into account the threat from Japan. There were many things Russia could not know before the event.

Like Shpilband & Zhulin, Russia is very good at the smoke & mirrors politics; but that doesn't mean they buy into their own propaganda. They wanted the win. They wanted the win for the team because that was the win that would put "Russia" on top. And they were willing to put up every single one of their top athletes twice to make that happen. It was always quite likely Russia would win that event, but it was not guaranteed. And it was certainly not guaranteed that using her only once would somehow protect them from being disqualified if it was later found that she cheated. It was all or nothing. If they had wanted to protect the team from her, they would have had to take her out of the lineup entirely. And, as best I can recall, neither of the other ladies has a reliable triple axel for the short.
 

overedge

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The irony is, by deciding Kamila needed to be "protected," CAS has pushed her right back into the arms of those who are doing her actual physical harm. I mean, this is beyond outrageous.

"Protected" status is in the WADA code, for underage athletes under certain circumstances. I agree with you about the effects of CAS' decision, but their job is to interpret the code, not rewrite it. The factors they considered in their decision were "
fairness, proportionality, irreparable harm,
and the relative balance of interests as between the Applicants and the Athlete"
 

Sasha'sSpins

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Three separate organizations filed the complaint (including, finally, the ISU) seeking to overturn RUSADA's decision to lift the temporary suspension. The Russian Fed can spin that 1/3 of the panel hearing the case is American, but in the face of three international organizations enjoining a legal claim against them, that's all it is... spin.
Well yes of course, it would've just been spin had they ruled against Valieva - which we now know that they didn't. I still hold with my initial opinion the Panelists should have all been from neutral countries.
 

AxelAnnie

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Objection, strawman argument. Not "all sportsmen" have recently tested positive for a banned substance :rolleyes:

Also, there are no drugs that you take to help you "legit" win a game. So yes, if a drug actually helps you win a game, it will be banned because you aren't supposed to win games with drugs. :rolleyes:
I just hope that Eteri does NOT escape from this unscathed. She is responsible for those girls, and overseed EVERYTHING. And this certainly falls into the everything category.

IMO the entire thing is disgusting.
 

reckless

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"Protected" status is in the WADA code, for underage athletes under certain circumstances. I agree with you about the effects of CAS' decision, but their job is to interpret the code, not rewrite it. The factors they considered in their decision were "
fairness, proportionality, irreparable harm,
and the relative balance of interests as between the Applicants and the Athlete"
But CAS did rewrite the WADA Code. Where a "protected person" is treated differently from other athletes, the WADA Code is very specific. First, a "protected person" is subject to different final penalty provisions -- ranging from reprimand to two-year ban (other athletes face four-year bans). Second, a "protected person" does not have the same burden of proving they do not have "significant fault" for the doping. An adult athlete must prove: (1) the drug was ingested unknowingly; and (2) how the drug got into their system. A "protected person" does not have the burden of proving the second part, though Valieva's team had offered an explanation (albeit, a ludicrous one). Third, a "protected person" is not subject to the mandatory disclosure provisions of the WADA Code; disclosure is optional depending on circumstances.

So those are places where the WADA Code has specific sections where it carves out exceptions applicable to "protected persons." In most legal systems, when interpreting a law, you try to ascertain the intent of the people who drafted it. When those drafters do something in some parts of the code (like create certain exceptions), when the do not include something similar in another part of the law, it is presumed they did not intend to include that thing. So by drafting exceptions for "protected persons," it showed that it knew how to create such exceptions. Where it did not include exceptions, it should have been understood that no exception exists.

The provision in the WADA Code governing provisional suspensions has no exception for "protected persons." It permits a provisional suspension to be lifted in two situations: (1) the athlete demonstrates to the hearing panel that the violation is likely to have involved a Contaminated Product; or (2) the violation involves a substance of abuse (not applicable here). The provisional suspension also has procedural requirements. It cannot be imposed or must be lifted if there is not enough time for a provisional hearing and an appeal before the event. That provision does not apply because the hearing last week was a provisional hearing and the appeal was heard Sunday.

CAS created an exception to the provisional suspension rule that does not exist in the WADA Code. If anyone rewrote the Code, it was CAS. WADA and the IOC sought to have it applied as written.
 

Cachoo

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You know back in the day in baseball people would say the ball was "juiced." But it turns out the athletes were juiced and there is an asterisk in the record books to indicate that these records are not pure. The ladies event needs an asterisk because this event is not pure. It's juiced.
 

Areski

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Lol I genuinely thought the grandpa excuse was just a fan fabrication. I am absolutely amazed it's real. Slow clap for all involved in that amazing piece of absurd theater.
Eurosport commentators here gently circumvented that and they surely already heard about it. But this is so cringy that I can't blame them.
 

irenemulindwairen

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Leave Lipnitskaya out of this. All of her test are negative. She had other issues.
I understand where you are coming from. It is a cultural thing. Achieve before you are in your are in your mid twenties, or you die a spinster. Who wants to marry an "old girl?"
 

Judy

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Really messy situation. I do strongly feel that any Olympic athlete deserves to stand on the podium and see their flag raised.

I do feel that if she wins her medal will eventually be removed. i think the people/coaches around her are just disgusting.
 

screech

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Really messy situation. I do strongly feel that any Olympic athlete deserves to stand on the podium and see their flag raised.

I do feel that if she wins her medal will eventually be removed. i think the people/coaches around her are just disgusting.
They'd never do it, but IMO it would be better to have everyone else get the medals/have their podium moment, but just leave her spot empty. If the results end up needing to be changed after the fact, the medals can be re-distributed at that point. Or a second ceremony held at the first Worlds that takes place after the entire investigation is done.

I used to teach at a middle school in a country where it is prohibited to expel a student from a school, and there is a limit on how much suspension they can receive in a school year. This is done to 'protect the rights of the child'. At this school we had a student (not in my class) who was very much a problem child - occasional physical altercations with other students, stealing school property and selling on the black market, etc (the police were called but the evidence was deemed 'circumstantial'). This child was also incredibly disruptive in classes. Eventually during the school year we reached the point where he'd used up all his permitted suspension, and he couldn't be expelled, so he was sent back to class, where he continued to cause disruptions and have an extremely negative affect on everyone around him. But it was all done to protect 'the rights of the child'. It made the teachers (who were all international) view this as his rights almost being more important than the rights of all the children around them, whose education was suffering (in addition to other things).

Though clearly not as extreme, this situation with Kamila's is reminding me of this student - protecting her rights is negatively affecting per peers, making it appear as though HER rights are more important than everyone else's. So that she can be protected, as is seemingly written in the laws, it's affecting THEIR rights.
 

vgerdes

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Though clearly not as extreme, this situation with Kamila's is reminding me of this student - protecting her rights is negatively affecting per peers, making it appear as though HER rights are more important than everyone else's. So that she can be protected, as is seemingly written in the laws, it's affecting THEIR rights.
Yes. It certainly seems as though they are protecting her rights at the expense of all others. It's absolutely infuriating.
 

Lara111

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Yes. It certainly seems as though they are protecting her rights at the expense of all others. It's absolutely infuriating.
The other who is impacted are Tutberidze girls. Most ''others'' cannot even dream about Olympic podium. Valieva is not on dope now. She is clean and under a lot of pressure. They cannot bit her even in this situation.
 

ioana

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So why do Russians have lack of trust? In some sports the testing rules have been changed suddenly in the offseason to target medication used by their athletes (Sharapova).

I know this was already addressed, but the revisionist history around Sharapova's suspension boggles the mind. Drug was on monitored substance list for a year prior to being banned. Rusada sent out memo about upcoming ban in September, three months prior to ban. Nothing about that timeline qualifies as 'sudden.' Sharapova got a reduced sentence by basically claiming negligence, admitting her situation was of her own making.

 
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