The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

[MarieM]

It might be that they didn’t want to be licked into a sensual style given their romantic history. Just guessing.

IMO they thought that what worked for V&M would work for them.
But by doing that they ignored that their huge success was the sexyness coming out from that 2018 FD of theirs. Since then their programs are just boring.

BUT this year's FD is growing on me. It's not as good as their 2018 FD, but it IS miles better than last season awfull FD. And their skating is so much better than the russian it's starting to really show.

And no, losing to BOTH american teams is BAD NEWS. IT's ice dance. Momentum is built month after month. You fall out of it more than once, you're kind of dead. And considering Nikita isn't well, the gold medal from the team event already is good.

I hate the team event. IT's always going to be CAN, USA, or RUS in first. It sucks.

 

[Andora]

And no, losing to BOTH american teams is BAD NEWS. IT's ice dance. Momentum is built month after month. You fall out of it more than once, you're kind of dead. And considering Nikita isn't well, the gold medal from the team event already is good.

Thiiiiis. I couldn't have imagined any reality where C&B best S&K, yet that's how the political winds have blown.

Maybe, knowing how bad Nikita's back really is, the thinking was go full boar to nail down the Team Event Gold, and potentially sacrifice the individual Ice Dance event. ROC didn't mess around with team gold, used their top champions at ever step, no substitutions, etc. Now they can pick up their ladies Gold (and silver & bronze) while letting IAM have their own podium.

I sincerely doubt Russia has given up like that, but it's a whole new world after the team event.

 

[manhn]

Was team gold a bigger deal for Russia in 2014 over pairs and ladies gold? Is Lip a bigger name than Sot?

At least with Canada, the team gold was a big deal but V&M’s individual gold was a way bigger deal.

How has Japan reacted to their medal?

 

[PRlady]

Thiiiiis. I couldn't have imagined any reality where C&B best S&K, yet that's how the political winds have blown.

Maybe, knowing how bad Nikita's back really is, the thinking was go full boar to nail down the Team Event Gold, and potentially sacrifice the individual Ice Dance event. ROC didn't mess around with team gold, used their top champions at ever step, no substitutions, etc. Now they can pick up their ladies Gold (and silver & bronze) while letting IAM have their own podium.

I sincerely doubt Russia has given up like that, but it's a whole new world after the team event.

Russia may have gotten used to not winning dance, '06 was the last time they did. A series of Lobachevas and Bobrovas and SinKats haven't gotten Russia back to the top step of the podium, despite their pairs program coming back gangbusters and having an untouchable stream of ladies. TPTB might be well aware that it's been years since Zhulin came up with great material, either, so sacrificing SinKats chances in the IE for the team gold was a sensible move from that standpoint.

 

[manhn]

If Russia wanted to spread the wealth around, I think their second ranked pairs team and ladies were more “deserving” than their second ranked dance, especially with S&B not in Beijing yet.

 

[skategal]

I think Russia knows that S/K are unlikely to get gold in ID unless P/C really mess up.

But they knew Team gold was theirs for the taking if they put all their top skaters in.

It makes sense to me to do so.

Take no chances.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

S/K were unlikely to get gold, but they were heavily favored for silver. Now, they've lost a lot of momentum after losing to both American teams. Nikita made major and obvious mistakes in the rhythm dance which is why they lost to H/D, and the extended lift is what led them to lose to C/B. Of the two American teams, I think C/B have more scoring potential since they got a level 3 on their stationary lift, and that should be a relatively easy fix for the individual event. The two big losers from the team event were S/K and G/P. G/P went into the Olympics in the bronze medal race with the two American teams. Now, they are pretty solidly out of that conversation and are podium dark horses alongside StepBuk and G/F. The big winners are obviously the American teams, but also PapCiz, since SinKats have been soundly taken out of gold medal contention. It will require an absolute disaster from P/C to lose the gold.

Before the Team Event
Gold - PapCiz
Silver - SinKats
Bronze - H/D, C/B, or G/P
Podium Dark Horses - StepBuk and G/F

After the Team Event
Gold - PapCiz
Silver/Bronze - SinKats, H/D, C/B
Podium Dark Horses - StepBuk, G/F, G/P

 

[text_skate]

Interesting results at the TE segments. Didn't expect this. Both US teams were on, they earned their resp wins. This will make the individual event even more exciting.
When I catched up with FD, the one interesting part was: SinKats where on slow-mo replay faster than ChoBat in real time.

 

[Ka3sha]

I will never ever understand how and why a team with poor basics can place ahead of those who can really skate, show some edge quality, speed and amplitude of skating. No matter how good the programs are or are not.

Otherwise, Hurtado/Diaz should have won the 2014 Ice Dance competition

 

[VGThuy]

Evan Bates doesn’t have poor basics at all. Madison is the weaker link but she’s capable of hitting her levels on a great day. And they may not have the rushed speed of S/K but that’s because they actually have programs with choreography and it matches the music rather than rushing through Rachmaninov and having sloppy reaching for one another. Madison C is no Madison H or Maia or Gabriella or Tessa, but she has her dance-related strengths that really let her shine and she’s far from deficient when it comes to skating skills. She’ll just have to comfort herself with all those medals, titles , (like Nikita and Victoria she’s a junior world champion pre-Evan), and a big win yesterday.

 

[MsZem]

Otherwise, Hurtado/Diaz should have won the 2014 Ice Dance competition

They were the very last qualifiers out of Nebelhorn that season

 

[Lara111]

Evan Bates doesn’t have poor basics at all. Madison is the weaker link but she’s capable of hitting her levels on a great day. And they may not have the rushed speed of S/K but that’s because they actually have programs with choreography and it matches the music rather than rushing through Rachmaninov and having sloppy reaching for one another. Madison C is no Madison H or Maia or Gabriella or Tessa, but she has her dance-related strengths that really let her shine and she’s far from deficient when it comes to skating skills. She’ll just have to comfort herself with all those medals, titles , (like Nikita and Victoria she’s a junior world champion pre-Evan), and a big win yesterday.

Evan's skills and posture inferior to Nikita's.

 

[BittyBug]

I will never ever understand how and why a team with poor basics can place ahead of those who can really skate, show some edge quality, speed and amplitude of skating. No matter how good the programs are or are not.

It's very simple. IJS is a numbers game and S&K made mistakes, which cost them points. (So did H/D and C/B, but theirs were less serious.)

 

[Ka3sha]

Evan Bates doesn’t have poor basics at all. Madison is the weaker link but she’s capable of hitting her levels on a great day. And they may not have the rushed speed of S/K but that’s because they actually have programs with choreography and it matches the music rather than rushing through Rachmaninov and having sloppy reaching for one another. Madison C is no Madison H or Maia or Gabriella or Tessa, but she has her dance-related strengths that really let her shine and she’s far from deficient when it comes to skating skills. She’ll just have to comfort herself with all those medals, titles , (like Nikita and Victoria she’s a junior world champion pre-Evan), and a big win yesterday.

I am not saying she is bad, there are no weak or bad athletes at the top. However, she is definitely weaker than Gariella, Madison H, Victoria and Charlene. They skate far from each other, she tends to lean on Evan and he visibly supports her during most of the steps in pattern, for example. Their programs are interesting for the audience, no doubt, but how much time does Maddie spend on Evan's hands or spinning around his head? For me, this is not the essence of the ice dance.
I definitely agree with them getting high GOEs on choreographic elements (even if I am strongly against having that many choreography elements nowadays), but the GOEs they get on the step sequences and pattern steps are just as questionable as Nikita's GOEs on the twizzles. Also, 9,44 for skating skills?
I am truly not a fan of Sinitsina/Katsalapov programs this season and think they deserve much better material, but when people start saying that they are being hugely overstored - well, they are not the only ones.


Gosh, maybe I simply miss the compulsories or at least proper pre-Sochi step sequences.

 

[Ka3sha]

Anyway, I am really happy with the team event results. Victoria deserves her OGM for an enormous progress she had over the years, and I am extremely happy both H/D and C/B got their well-deserved Olympic medals as well and a chance to share this experience with each other.
Also, it was great to see both Maddies hugging and being genuinely happy in the moment and later on.

 

[MsZem]

Evan Bates doesn’t have poor basics at all. Madison is the weaker link but she’s capable of hitting her levels on a great day. And they may not have the rushed speed of S/K but that’s because they actually have programs with choreography and it matches the music rather than rushing through Rachmaninov and having sloppy reaching for one another. Madison C is no Madison H or Maia or Gabriella or Tessa, but she has her dance-related strengths that really let her shine and she’s far from deficient when it comes to skating skills. She’ll just have to comfort herself with all those medals, titles , (like Nikita and Victoria she’s a junior world champion pre-Evan), and a big win yesterday.

Personally I feel like the Shibs should have at least won the FD at that event.

I don't know what Zhulin was thinking with S/K this season. Whatever Nikita is dealing with could have been camouflaged with better material.

 

[PRlady]

I am not saying she is bad, there are no weak or bad athletes at the top. However, she is definitely weaker than Gariella, Madison H, Victoria and Charlene. They skate far from each other, she tends to lean on Evan and he visibly supports her during most of the steps in pattern, for example. Their programs are interesting for the audience, no doubt, but how much time does Maddie spend on Evan's hands or spinning around his head? For me, this is not the essence of the ice dance.
I definitely agree with them getting high GOEs on choreographic elements (even if I am strongly against having that many choreography elements nowadays), but the GOEs they get on the step sequences and pattern steps are just as questionable as Nikita's GOEs on the twizzles. Also, 9,44 for skating skills?
I am truly not a fan of Sinitsina/Katsalapov programs this season and think they deserve much better material, but when people start saying that they are being hugely overstored - well, they are not the only ones.


Gosh, maybe I simply miss the compulsories or at least proper pre-Sochi step sequences.

Well, I'm with you on the pre-Sochi dance. There was a time when whole dances were "choreographic" -- now they all look too similar. That I would really like to fix although I know the idea is to compare apples with apples in the judging.

Maddie C is a second-mark skater, even I see she's not as powerful as some of the other ladies, but she makes up for a lot in performance quality. If G/F had C/B's performance abilities you'd have the perfect team.

 

[VGThuy]

Evan's skills and posture inferior to Nikita's.

I disagree about posture. Nikita is especially sloppy a few times throughout the dance. As far as skills, Evan has had to kind of hold back for Chock, but he still displays a high level of skill. When he was with Samuelson, he could show off that great foundation he had but that’s ancient history by now. I will say Evan’s partnering skills are miles ahead of Nikita’s. That’s why Nikita’s best days with Elena had empty programs with tons of space between them.

I am not saying she is bad, there are no weak or bad athletes at the top. However, she is definitely weaker than Gariella, Madison H, Victoria and Charlene. They skate far from each other, she tends to lean on Evan and he visibly supports her during most of the steps in pattern, for example. Their programs are interesting for the audience, no doubt, but how much time does Maddie spend on Evan's hands or spinning around his head? For me, this is not the essence of the ice dance.
I definitely agree with them getting high GOEs on choreographic elements (even if I am strongly against having that many choreography elements nowadays), but the GOEs they get on the step sequences and pattern steps are just as questionable as Nikita's GOEs on the twizzles. Also, 9,44 for skating skills?
I am truly not a fan of Sinitsina/Katsalapov programs this season and think they deserve much better material, but when people start saying that they are being hugely overstored - well, they are not the only ones.


Gosh, maybe I simply miss the compulsories or at least proper pre-Sochi step sequences.

Oh I do agree with you that Madison relies on Evan a lot to carry her and move her forward. I guess I’ve been conditioned to expect it. However, ever since her move to Montreal, I think she’s improved a lot on that front as she holds her own better and there’s a lot less skipping and jumping to gain forward momentum as they had during their Igor days. I think Sinitsina/Katsalapov are superior in that way but not so much so that they can get away with less quality elements and choreography. Their scores may be too high for SS but I think considering how everyone scores on lifts and other elements that aren’t that great for them and with their choreography scores, it evens out.

Personally I feel like the Shibs should have at least won the FD at that event.

I actually totally agree with this. I thought it was just me being a Shibs Uber though.

I will say I think if we ignore personal taste in choreo and music, then Guignard/Fabbri are the most hosed.

 

[MsZem]

I will say I think if we ignore personal taste in choreo and music, then Guignard/Fabbri are the most hosed.

This is 100% correct.

I adored the Shibs' Cinema Paradiso and kind of enjoyed the Hubbells as well. I couldn't tell you what Chock/Zuerlein did. She certainly has more memorable programs now.

 

[PRlady]

I disagree about posture. Nikita is especially sloppy a few times throughout the dance. As far as skills, Evan has had to kind of hold back for Chock, but he still displays a high level of skill. When he was with Samuelson, he could show off that great foundation he had but that’s ancient history by now. I will say Evan’s partnering skills are miles ahead of Nikita’s. That’s why Nikita’s best days with Elena had empty programs with tons of space between them.


Oh I do agree with you that Madison relies on Evan a lot to carry her and move her forward. I guess I’ve been conditioned to expect it. However, ever since her move to Montreal, I think she’s improved a lot on that front as she holds her own better and there’s a lot less skipping and jumping to gain forward momentum as they had during their Igor days. I think Sinitsina/Katsalapov are superior in that way but not so much so that they can get away with less quality elements and choreography. Their scores may be too high for SS but I think considering how everyone scores on lifts and other elements that aren’t that great for them and with their choreography scores, it evens out.


I actually totally agree with this. I thought it was just me being a Shibs Uber though.

I will say I think if we ignore personal taste in choreo and music, then Guignard/Fabbri are the most hosed.

G/F really suffer from the lack of height difference, it makes G look bigger than she is. That's not fixable (and yes I know I sound like the poster who harps on this all the time, but it is a factor.)

 

[VGThuy]

G/F really suffer from the lack of height difference, it makes G look bigger than she is. That's not fixable (and yes I know I sound like the poster who harps on this all the time, but it is a factor.)

But I really don’t mind that. They move so well together and their lines match despite the height differences. It’s just a different look, but necessarily a wrong one. And they really know where the other one is at all times. I’m amazed at their timing. It allows them to do some intricate dances. The lack of height hasn’t made their lifts suffer either. They have some of the best and most seamless lifts of the competition.

 

[Rafter]

Re: Chock, she has never had great edges. Quite shallow and she doesn’t skate with much power.

What helps her a lot is a gorgeous, expressive face and the ability to hit beautiful positions, especially in lifts.

 

[litenkyckling]

even Romain Haguenauer thinks that Madi C has weaker SS

 

[Peepsquick]

It might be that they didn’t want to be licked into a sensual style given their romantic history. Just guessing.

I disagree about posture. Nikita is especially sloppy a few times throughout the dance. As far as skills, Evan has had to kind of hold back for Chock, but he still displays a high level of skill. When he was with Samuelson, he could show off that great foundation he had but that’s ancient history by now. I will say Evan’s partnering skills are miles ahead of Nikita’s. That’s why Nikita’s best days with Elena had empty programs with tons of space between them.


Oh I do agree with you that Madison relies on Evan a lot to carry her and move her forward. I guess I’ve been conditioned to expect it. However, ever since her move to Montreal, I think she’s improved a lot on that front as she holds her own better and there’s a lot less skipping and jumping to gain forward momentum as they had during their Igor days. I think Sinitsina/Katsalapov are superior in that way but not so much so that they can get away with less quality elements and choreography. Their scores may be too high for SS but I think considering how everyone scores on lifts and other elements that aren’t that great for them and with their choreography scores, it evens out.


I actually totally agree with this. I thought it was just me being a Shibs Uber though.

I will say I think if we ignore personal taste in choreo and music, then Guignard/Fabbri are the most hosed.

All good technicians for me but totally lacking the IT-factor, at least for me ...

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

S/K were unlikely to get gold, but they were heavily favored for silver. Now, they've lost a lot of momentum after losing to both American teams. Nikita made major and obvious mistakes in the rhythm dance which is why they lost to H/D, and the extended lift is what led them to lose to C/B. Of the two American teams, I think C/B have more scoring potential since they got a level 3 on their stationary lift, and that should be a relatively easy fix for the individual event. The two big losers from the team event were S/K and G/P. G/P went into the Olympics in the bronze medal race with the two American teams. Now, they are pretty solidly out of that conversation and are podium dark horses alongside StepBuk and G/F. The big winners are obviously the American teams, but also PapCiz, since SinKats have been soundly taken out of gold medal contention. It will require an absolute disaster from P/C to lose the gold.

Before the Team Event
Gold - PapCiz
Silver - SinKats
Bronze - H/D, C/B, or G/P
Podium Dark Horses - StepBuk and G/F

After the Team Event
Gold - PapCiz
Silver/Bronze - SinKats, H/D, C/B
Podium Dark Horses - StepBuk, G/F, G/P

Absolutely. And there is no chance of S&K beating P&C barring a disaester now and they will have to work hard to secure their expected medal. While I agree G&P now have virtually no shot of a medal. Even their PCS in the FD were significantly behind 2 of the other medal contenders.

 

[VGThuy]

All good technicians for me but totally lacking the IT-factor, at least for me ...

Cool story, bro.

 

[Andora]

I don't know what Zhulin was thinking with S/K this season. Whatever Nikita is dealing with could have been camouflaged with better material.

Gives me much more appreciation for Linichuk's "creativity" in 2010.

But I really don’t mind that. They move so well together and their lines match despite the height differences. It’s just a different look, but necessarily a wrong one. And they really know where the other one is at all times. I’m amazed at their timing. It allows them to do some intricate dances. The lack of height hasn’t made their lifts suffer either. They have some of the best and most seamless lifts of the competition.

Agreed, re: G&F. I'm continually blown away by how well they move across the ice together. At their worst, I find their musicality is better than most top teams. But they're still somehow missing that "it" that pushes lesser teams forward, which is sad. I'm not sure if the lack of height difference does play into it or not, but it doesn't have to.

 

[vireo]

Re: Chock, she has never had great edges. Quite shallow and she doesn’t skate with much power.

What helps her a lot is a gorgeous, expressive face and the ability to hit beautiful positions, especially in lifts.

Madison Chock has a dancer's control of her body. That is a rare quality in skating. She uses her entire body so eloquently, doesn't waste a beat of the music, and never breaks character. That requires a great deal of skill, effort and concentration.

I like ice dancers who can dance, so I'm happy to see Chock rewarded for what she brings to the discipline.

 

[skategal]

Generally I’m not a fan of S/K and usually enjoy C/B but I thought S/K had the win yesterday.

It was the best they ever skated that FD and they were flying over the ice.

I’m not sad C/B got the win but I thought for sure it was going the other way.

 

[MsZem]

Gives me much more appreciation for Linichuk's "creativity" in 2010.

There were two good things about DomShabs that season: their Tango Romantica CD at the Olympics, and my first time hearing this piece of music because of their FD.