Tornadoes

[PeterG]

Tornado watch briefly issued after waterspout sighted near Vancouver airport

I have never heard of tornadoes happening anywhere near British Columbia. So this info was shocking. But then lots of shocking things have happened this year in British Columbia.

We had an unprecedented heatwave this summer which resulted in the death of over 600 people. Some reports say that this unprecedented heat played a part in the entire town of Lillooet burning to the ground.

Then this last month floods throughout the province ripped apart Highways 1 and 5, the major east/west highway connected Vancouver to the rest of Canada. These same floods resulted in the flooding of large parts of Abbotsford (population 180,000), mainly in farmalnd where over 640,000 farm animals died.

A tornade, unprecedented heatweave, entire towns burning to the ground and floods that separate Vancouver from the rest of Canada is a lot to endure for one year.

 

[TOADS]

Tornado watch briefly issued after waterspout sighted near Vancouver airport

I have never heard of tornadoes happening anywhere near British Columbia. So this info was shocking. But then lots of shocking things have happened this year in British Columbia.

We had an unprecedented heatwave this summer which resulted in the death of over 600 people. Some reports say that this unprecedented heat played a part in the entire town of Lillooet burning to the ground.

Then this last month floods throughout the province ripped apart Highways 1 and 5, the major east/west highway connected Vancouver to the rest of Canada. These same floods resulted in the flooding of large parts of Abbotsford (population 180,000), mainly in farmalnd where over 640,000 farm animals died.

A tornade, unprecedented heatweave, entire towns burning to the ground and floods that separate Vancouver from the rest of Canada is a lot to endure for one year.

Lytton, BC hit the Canadian national temperature high of 121 degrees and burned to the ground a couple of days later.

 

[TOADS]

I thought you'd be interested in this: just a couple of days ago, I read an article that talked about a 2008 study that shows that nighttime tornados are disproportionately deadly, versus daytime tornados. The article I linked to also shows which states tend to be hit by nighttime tornados, when in the year nighttime tornados are more likely to occur, and explains why that is the case. Since you are in the weather field, you may already know this, but I found it interesting.

This is the article:

Nighttime Tornadoes More Than Twice As Likely To Be Deadly | Weather.com

A recent study found the death rate from nocturnal tornadoes is rising. - Articles from The Weather Channel | weather.com

weather.com

Another added element that makes nighttime tornadoes so deadly is that there are more companies that have 24 hour work schedules. This is clearly evident by lives lost at the Amazon facility and the candle factory.

 

[Karen-W]

Another added element that makes nighttime tornadoes so deadly is that there are more companies that have 24 hour work schedules. This is clearly evident by lives lost at the Amazon facility and the candle factory.

Huh? I don't understand how a factory having a 24-hr work schedule makes a nighttime tornado more deadly than a daytime one. The factory is going to have the same number of people working at any time of the day, regardless of when the tornado strikes. If this storm cell had roared through in broad daylight, it still would have leveled half of that Amazon factory or destroyed the candle factory and the day time crew would have been in just as much danger as the night shift's workers at either facility were.

 

[skatingguy]

Huh? I don't understand how a factory having a 24-hr work schedule makes a nighttime tornado more deadly than a daytime one. The factory is going to have the same number of people working at any time of the day, regardless of when the tornado strikes. If this storm cell had roared through in broad daylight, it still would have leveled half of that Amazon factory or destroyed the candle factory and the day time crew would have been in just as much danger as the night shift's workers at either facility were.

It's harder to see the tornado coming, and there's less people around outside to give additional warning. In the daytime the tornado would be tracked more closely by the people in it's path, it would be announced on local radio etc., there would be reports on local television. There would just be a lot more opportunities for someone instead a closed structure to know about the threat.

 

[TOADS]

Huh? I don't understand how a factory having a 24-hr work schedule makes a nighttime tornado more deadly than a daytime one. The factory is going to have the same number of people working at any time of the day, regardless of when the tornado strikes. If this storm cell had roared through in broad daylight, it still would have leveled half of that Amazon factory or destroyed the candle factory and the day time crew would have been in just as much danger as the night shift's workers at either facility were.

Death tolls in some tornados are exceedingly high due to what is called a mass casualty site. A strong tornado hitting a facility such as a school, hospital, factory, sport arenas, or any other such place can result is a high loss of life since the structure can completely collapse, killing many inside. During the day, such facilities are occupied. The saving grace is there is a chance to evacuate to seek shelter since this tornado can be tracked. You hear many stories of schools being completely demolished but luck was with them and school had let out for the day. However there are cases where they weren’t so lucky, as with the Joplin tornado where there were multiple mass casualty sites.

At night, tornadoes can be deadlier because most people are asleep and don’t get the warnings in time. There is a smaller likelihood of a mass casualty event since most such sites are empty except for hospitals and the like.

However in this case we had two facilities that has people working and to make it worse, it was at night, making them potentially mass casualty sites.

 

[Judy]

Really horrifying the devastation. I'm a bit lost for words. ???

 

[Kruss]

This is truly terrible. My heart and prayers go out to everyone affected by these storms.

My sister and her family live in Clarksville, TN, so the tornado that hit near Ford Campbell came about 15-20 miles from her home. They had warning alerts going off all night on their phones, and got a lot of wind, but nothing more. I was up until 2am following the storms because I was concerned for my family there.

 

[PeterG]

Lytton, BC hit the Canadian national temperature high of 121 degrees and burned to the ground a couple of days later.

Oops. I said Lillooet, but I should have said Lytton.

Huh? I don't understand how a factory having a 24-hr work schedule makes a nighttime tornado more deadly than a daytime one.

If the factory had workers only in during the day, then no one there at night when the tornado hit would mean a destroyed factory, but no lives lost.

 

[Cachoo]

Huh? I don't understand how a factory having a 24-hr work schedule makes a nighttime tornado more deadly than a daytime one. The factory is going to have the same number of people working at any time of the day, regardless of when the tornado strikes. If this storm cell had roared through in broad daylight, it still would have leveled half of that Amazon factory or destroyed the candle factory and the day time crew would have been in just as much danger as the night shift's workers at either facility were.

I do believe daytime makes a difference. I’ve lived through countless tornado warnings. I do think you can get careless. At night the meteorologist might say hook echo indicates a tornado but that isn’t necessarily a sure thing. And so many funnels touch down for a few seconds then dissipate. Somehow seeing it from miles away makes a difference. You make different choices. When a tornado wiped the town of Greensburg off of the map it was dark. The sheriff usually told his assistant to leave the siren on for ten minutes. Then when lightning illuminated what was coming he told her to leave the sirens on indefinitely and take cover. By then a lot of folks were in bed.
Chances are if I saw something coming I might leave and head southwest until I was out of harms way.

 

[Karen-W]

I appreciate the comments & observations from the folks who live in tornado-prone areas. I've lived on the West Coast most of my life, save for my college years in Virginia, so I don't really have much experience with them or the warnings. I can understand why, during the day, it's easier to track and see what's coming and know you need to get to a safe place.

I'm not sure that I agree with the condemnation of either Amazon or the candle factory for having a nighttime shift just because it turns them into potentially mass-casualty sites should a tornado come roaring through, especially during a time of year when tornadoes are extremely uncommon.

 

[aka_gerbil]

One of the things we have drilled into us since childhood is don’t go out in a storm and try to out run a tornado.

The vilification of the candle company is about to make me lose my mind. Tornados don’t happen there in December, especially not like this. Even in the spring… if everything was shut down every time there might be weather… and most of the time, these storms that start in Missouri or Arkansas lose power and intensity when the go over the river and turn into nothing more than a regular thunderstorm. People from all over the far Western Kentucky area drove in to work at the factory. Once that storm crossed the river…. Sending people home would have literally sent some of them into the storm. Given the shape that much of the town is in, there’s also no guarantee that even those who lived near would have been any more safe.

There are also a lot of hot takes by people in parts of the country with a more expensive cost of living about trying to tie the starting wage to the roof collapsing in what was possibly an EF5 tornado. No one is adjusting for cost of living and how cheap it is to live there. 8 dollars there is equivalent to 20-30 dollars an hour in the more expensive coastal cities. Also… an EF5 tornado makes a lot of buildings look cheap, no matter how well they were actually built.

My favorite COL example: My parents 3000+ square feet new house that was built new cost less than half of what of what my former roommate paid for her 1200 square feet 55 year old house that is going to need a bunch of exterior repairs at some point.

 

[Karen-W]

One of the things we have drilled into us since childhood is don’t go out in a storm and try to out run a tornado.

The vilification of the candle company is about to make me lose my mind. Tornados don’t happen there in December, especially not like this. Even in the spring… if everything was shut down every time there might be weather…

There are also a lot of hot takes by people in parts of the country with a more expensive cost of living about trying to tie the starting wage to the roof collapsing in what was possibly an EF5 tornado. No one is adjusting for cost of living and how cheap it is to live there. 8 dollars there is equivalent to 20-30 dollars an hour in the more expensive coastal cities.

My favorite COL example: My parents 3000+ square feet new house that was built new cost less than half of what of what my former roommate paid for her 1200 square feet 55 year old house that is going to need a bunch of exterior repairs at some point.

The vilification of both the candle company and Amazon in both of these cases just strikes me as kneejerk "Capitalism = BAD!" talking points that, like you mention with regard to COL, doesn't take into consideration the reality of how much cheaper it is to live in these areas compared to the coastal regions.

Plus, from everything I've read and heard about EF5 tornadoes, they're like a Cat 5 hurricane or a 8.0+ earthquake, it doesn't really matter how well a building is built, not much will survive a direct hit or being at the epicenter of one. There's only so much man can do to keep safe from Mother Nature.

 

[aka_gerbil]

The vilification of both the candle company and Amazon in both of these cases just strikes me as kneejerk "Capitalism = BAD!" talking points that, like you mention with regard to COL, doesn't take into consideration the reality of how much cheaper it is to live in these areas compared to the coastal regions.

Plus, from everything I've read and heard about EF5 tornadoes, they're like a Cat 5 hurricane or a 8.0+ earthquake, it doesn't really matter how well a building is built, not much will survive a direct hit or being at the epicenter of one. There's only so much man can do to keep safe from Mother Nature.

I think it very much is knee-jerk and some people trying to grab ahold of anything, even tragedy, to push their own view point. There is plenty to discuss about how capitalism can go wrong without trying to use these tragic incidents.

Yeah… sometimes, Mother Nature is going to just be the winner despite the best of precautions.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Dark humor alert:

Maybe we need a reboot of Twister so people can get more easily visualize being in an EF5 tornado. Cows flying around a truck will do that.


ETA: hmm....the rest of my post didn't post for some reason.

In all seriousness I don't see how anyone can armchair quarterback which buildings are code deficient from the pictures of the destruction left behind. I certainly wouldn't have that skill level with all the data. There are probably a few suspect building codes somewhere in all that but there are far more built to tornado code that couldn't stand up to that storm. This thing crossed states with a vengeance.

 

[TOADS]

I appreciate the comments & observations from the folks who live in tornado-prone areas. I've lived on the West Coast most of my life, save for my college years in Virginia, so I don't really have much experience with them or the warnings. I can understand why, during the day, it's easier to track and see what's coming and know you need to get to a safe place.

I'm not sure that I agree with the condemnation of either Amazon or the candle factory for having a nighttime shift just because it turns them into potentially mass-casualty sites should a tornado come roaring through, especially during a time of year when tornadoes are extremely uncommon.

This was not to be a commendation of the candle factory or Amazon. They didn’t do anything wrong, it was just plain bad luck. The point is that many companies now operate many hours beyond the normal 9 to 5 hours and potential mass casualty events if there is a night time tornado.

So get off that line of crap…..

 

[Karen-W]

This was not to be a commendation of the candle factory or Amazon. They didn’t do anything wrong, it was just plain bad luck. The point is that many companies now operate many hours beyond the normal 9 to 5 hours and potential mass casualty events if there is a night time tornado.

So get off that line of crap…..

Companies have been operating well beyond the normal 9 to 5 hours for decades. My dad worked the graveyard shift at our local lumber mill 50 years ago, and my grandma worked the swing shift at a beef jerky factory when I was a kid.

So, yes, it was just plain bad luck but a 24/7 work schedule, especially for factories, is hardly some new phenomena and this tragedy won't change that.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Dark humor alert:

Maybe we need a reboot of Twister so people can get more easily visualize being in an EF5 tornado. Cows flying around a truck will do that.


ETA: hmm....the rest of my post didn't post for some reason.

In all seriousness I don't see how anyone can armchair quarterback which buildings are code deficient from the pictures of the destruction left behind. I certainly wouldn't have that skill level with all the data. There are probably a few suspect building codes somewhere in all that but there are far more built to tornado code that couldn't stand up to that storm. This thing crossed states with a vengeance.

I’m not sure about Illinois, but far Western Kentucky is part of the New Madrid Seismic Zone and the state of Kentucky has long required certain standards be met for new construction. This factory was built long after those codes were put into place. What I’m not sure is how structural design for earthquakes aligns with structural design for tornados. I do know that a friend in Florida has a house built to withstand up to cat 4 and an interior room that’s even more enforced. The walls of the whole thing are concrete and steel going some absurd number of feet into the ground. That kind of construction would be a disaster in earthquake prone CA where you want the buildings to have some give.

One of the real problems with nighttime storms in rural areas is lack of warning and people being asleep. If I were in charge, every home would be provided with a weather radio.

 

[TOADS]

Companies have been operating well beyond the normal 9 to 5 hours for decades. My dad worked the graveyard shift at our local lumber mill 50 years ago, and my grandma worked the swing shift at a beef jerky factory when I was a kid.

So, yes, it was just plain bad luck but a 24/7 work schedule, especially for factories, is hardly some new phenomena and this tragedy won't change that.

Actually this tragedy can change things. After the Greenberg tornado totaled that town and killed a lot of people, new structures require a concrete tornado room and schools had to have concrete secure storm rooms. NOAA now issues warnings over many media platforms. If new factories are required to have secure storm shelters, the warning system issued by NOAA could be hooked up to the factory’s klaxon system. A five minute warning would enable folks to scramble to shelters..

 

[Cachoo]

One of the things we have drilled into us since childhood is don’t go out in a storm and try to out run a tornado.

The vilification of the candle company is about to make me lose my mind. Tornados don’t happen there in December, especially not like this. Even in the spring… if everything was shut down every time there might be weather… and most of the time, these storms that start in Missouri or Arkansas lose power and intensity when the go over the river and turn into nothing more than a regular thunderstorm. People from all over the far Western Kentucky area drove in to work at the factory. Once that storm crossed the river…. Sending people home would have literally sent some of them into the storm. Given the shape that much of the town is in, there’s also no guarantee that even those who lived near would have been any more safe.

There are also a lot of hot takes by people in parts of the country with a more expensive cost of living about trying to tie the starting wage to the roof collapsing in what was possibly an EF5 tornado. No one is adjusting for cost of living and how cheap it is to live there. 8 dollars there is equivalent to 20-30 dollars an hour in the more expensive coastal cities. Also… an EF5 tornado makes a lot of buildings look cheap, no matter how well they were actually built.

My favorite COL example: My parents 3000+ square feet new house that was built new cost less than half of what of what my former roommate paid for her 1200 square feet 55 year old house that is going to need a bunch of exterior repairs at some point.

Us too: I may ignore that though. If it was miles off and big and headed my direction I might do the old right angle skiparoo to get out if it's way. However that can be dangerous if the storm is dropping multiple funnels or if the tornado changes direction like it it did in Oklahoma a few years back. Three experienced storm chasers died as a result. They were behind the storm until suddenly they weren't. If it is dark I would stay in place but that is scary when you know one is headed your way and the power goes out and things start hitting the house (luckily it missed us.)

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

One of the real problems with nighttime storms in rural areas is lack of warning and people being asleep. If I were in charge, every home would be provided with a weather radio.

That was my problem last year. I woke up to 5 trees slamming into my home. I have 2 weather radios now. One is plugged into the wall. The other runs on battery for when the power is out and I pull it out once a month to check that it's still charged. I also have one of those car battery chargers that can also charge your cell phone and inflate your tires. And a really great cell phone battery pack. It's a little effort to make sure all 3 are charged once a month but worth it. It's horrible to need your phone and have no power to charge it.

 

[missing]

All seven people incarcerated at Graves County jail who worked at the Mayfield Consumer Products candle factory are alive.

The seven were among the dozens feared dead and injured after a massive tornado struck the factory overnight. However, an unnamed spokesperson using the Graves County Jail Facebook account told WFPL News the jail had “accounted for all inmates.” They said some inmates have injuries but they are “non-life threatening.”

 

[Karen-W]

Actually this tragedy can change things. After the Greenberg tornado totaled that town and killed a lot of people, new structures require a concrete tornado room and schools had to have concrete secure storm rooms. NOAA now issues warnings over many media platforms. If new factories are required to have secure storm shelters, the warning system issued by NOAA could be hooked up to the factory’s klaxon system. A five minute warning would enable folks to scramble to shelters..

Those are good things to change and implement with building codes going forward, similar to the stricter building codes that California has to withstand the shaking from major earthquakes. And I would hope that state legislatures and building authorities seriously consider those types of tangible, meaningful safety measures.

Goodness knows, when I went to college in Virginia just 2 years after living through the Loma Prieta quake, I walked around the gorgeous century-old brick campus and shuddered at the notion of being in one of them during an earthquake.

 

[aka_gerbil]

The candle factory did have an interior shelter area with concrete walls and the employees had been moved into it before the storm hit. As I said above, Kentucky does have and has had for a long time now building codes because of the New Madrid Fault.

I do think there are some at-odds to building things to withstand earthquakes and buildings to withstand tornados (or hurricanes). For an earthquake, you want some give, but that’s what you don’t want for tornadoes and hurricanes. How do you build in a part of the country that is at risk for both?

 

[MacMadame]

If it was miles off and big and headed my direction I might do the old right angle skiparoo to get out if it's way.

Except tornados don't follow a direct path ever. They bounce around.

 

[once_upon]

I think when there is a large number of deaths in any catastrophic weather incident people want to blame someone or something in addition to the weather event. From one map line I saw this system that spawned all the destruction was about a 10 hour time line.

Nighttime tornadoes are among the worst - people are sleeping when advance systems are less likely to be in people's awareness (ie TV or phones on DND status), weather spotters might be out but darkness can mask the upcoming storm, etc.

One article I read, said a couple were talking to their son who was working at the Amazon facility before the tornado hit and he reported they were heading to the tornado shelter. (He was among the deceased). But my guess is that tornado drills were not a common occurrence and I imagine there was a lot confusion/terror.

If I was going to fault a company, it would be to question a) if drills were part of a plan, b) How many people knew the location of a shelter, c) What kind of communication system was in place with the NWS and within the facility.

 

[Cachoo]

Except tornados don't follow a direct path ever. They bounce around.

True but the Oklahoma tornado that went from clockwise to counterclockwise was very rare. Generally they move north and east. I think I would be more worried about the speed if I decided to go south and west to get away from it. Some look like they are moving very fast.

 

[aka_gerbil]

True but the Oklahoma tornado that went from clockwise to counterclockwise was very rare. Generally they move north and east. I think I would be more worried about the speed if I decided to go south and west to get away from it. Some look like they are moving very fast.

But even if you have a storm that’s in general tracking like you expect, the thing can still turn. At one point, the tornado on Friday night was tracking straight line West directly towards the farm. It was miles away, but if it hadn’t turned… completely different path hitting a different set of towns.

The tornado first touched down in Arkansas at 4 pm central and merged with another system at 2 am eastern, so 9 hours. I’ve said this before, but usually crossing the river turns these storms from tornadoes to regular thunderstorms. It’s just what happens most of the time. Tornadoes in far Western Kentucky are usually short track and EF0 or EF1. December is usually very quiet for severe storms of any kind. This was just so aberrant from how any of this goes normally.

Edit: that was the time from the system developing to merging with the other. The first warning was issued by NWS Memphis for Northwest Arkansas at 7:06 pm. It hit the nursing home in Monette right before 7:30. After it crossed the river, it did look like it was losing steam/power as usual, but it was likely just cycling and it regained intensity right as it hit the southwest of Mayfield. They stopped picking up rotation in the storm at 11:30, when it was southwest of Louisville.

I’m really curious to see the ratings from the time it crossed the river until it hit mayfield.

 

[TOADS]

But even if you have a storm that’s in general tracking like you expect, the thing can still turn. At one point, the tornado on Friday night was tracking straight line West directly towards the farm. It was miles away, but if it hadn’t turned… completely different path hitting a different set of towns.

The tornado first touched down in Arkansas at 4 pm central and merged with another system at 2 am eastern, so 9 hours. I’ve said this before, but usually crossing the river turns these storms from tornadoes to regular thunderstorms. It’s just what happens most of the time. Tornadoes in far Western Kentucky are usually short track and EF0 or EF1. December is usually very quiet for severe storms of any kind. This was just so aberrant from how any of this goes normally.

Edit: that was the time from the system developing to merging with the other. The first warning was issued by NWS Memphis for Northwest Arkansas at 7:06 pm. It hit the nursing home in Monette right before 7:30. After it crossed the river, it did look like it was losing steam/power as usual, but it was likely just cycling and it regained intensity right as it hit the southwest of Mayfield. They stopped picking up rotation in the storm at 11:30, when it was southwest of Louisville.

I’m really curious to see the ratings from the time it crossed the river until it hit mayfield.

Forensic meteorologists and structural engineers will be able to determine what the strength of the tornado was when it hit Mayfield.

 

[Cachoo]

Forensic meteorologists and structural engineers will be able to determine what the strength of the tornado was when it hit Mayfield.

Forensic meteorologists and structural engineers will be able to determine what the strength of the tornado was when it hit Mayfield.

They showed some footage from a town near Mayfield—-Bremen?? Anyway it looked like a few places had only the foundation left without debris and debarked trees. Scary.