The Dance Hall 8: Join the Maskerade 2020-2021

[Wyliefan]

What's funny, @mjb52?

 

[mjb52]

What's funny, @mjb52?

First sentence of your post... they should let us split emoticon reactions by parts of posts.

I need time to really think through my take-aways for Worlds, but one of the most interesting for me is Canada as well. At one point, before his injury maybe?, I thought FB/S really had a chance at grabbing the top spot in Canada and now I think that has firmly slipped away from them.

 

[Wyliefan]

I know there was some speculation about that, but when they went head to head at 2019 nationals and G/P's scores were so much higher, it looked like Skate Canada had no interest in the idea.

 

[Colonel Green]

I need time to really think through my take-aways for Worlds, but one of the most interesting for me is Canada as well. At one point, before his injury maybe?, I thought FB/S really had a chance at grabbing the top spot in Canada and now I think that has firmly slipped away from them.

I know there was some speculation about that, but when they went head to head at 2019 nationals and G/P's scores were so much higher, it looked like Skate Canada had no interest in the idea.

There was more speculation about it at the start of the 2019-20 season when they got those huge scores right out of the gate at their Challengers (in particular when they got basically the same score in the RD as Guignard/Fabbri at Lombardia). But then Gilles & Poirier won the gold at SCI and in general had a very successful season culminating in the 4CC silver and Fournier Beaudry & Sorensen got waylaid by his injury. I think things were already trending away from it being possible (the fed was making a push for the podium at Montreal Worlds), but the missed time due to injury I think definitely sealed that it wasn't happening. It's just too late in the cycle for the fed to swap horses, particularly when one of those horses now has a World medal.

They (especially Marjorie) present themselves very confidently, which is a strength, but as I've complained before, they had no connection at all to their RD music.

I always thought they were very sharp in the RD (subjectivity?! in ice dance?! well I never!).

 

[Ka3sha]

While final results at this year's Worlds were a bit unexpected and I still have some questions about levels/GOEs/PCS for some teams, but all in all, the final placements seem fair and correct to me.

I am very happy for all three teams on the podium
Victoria and Nikita looked and very confident and prepared, especially if we take in consideration the difficult year they and especially her had. His twizzles are still a do or die kinda element for them, but it seems to me that overall they learnt how to deal with nerves and I don't worry whenever they could fall on whatever step/lift/turn now. Also, congratulations to Victoria - the only skater who managed to get level 4 on her OFStSq

2 points gap between SinKats and H/D after the RD seemed a bit too much. Unlike many, I don't have a problem with SinKats score, more that H/D were underscored on GOEs and PCS - especially in comparison with C/B, who got lower levels and whose skating skills are not on the same level (both teams got 9,39). But they lost the FD fair and square, and unlike SinKats they didn't learn how to compete and not lose the GOEs and levels when it matters the most.
Also, I think USFS made a strategically wrong decision here - their tactics to support all teams (or at least #1 and #2) worked very well last olympic cycle when they were all fighting for bronze, but IF they want silver/or even gold (too late for that), they need to be bolder and choose 1 team to support politically.

Was very glad for Piper&Paul, what a nice and well deserved surprise that was. Last season that FD felt kinda boring and uninspiring to me both times I had an opportunity to see them live (Rostelecom and GPF), but here they were so moving and these 4 minutes felt like one.

I was not the biggest fan of the Snake FD even last season, but at least you could saw the fire and enjoyment in their eyes - this year it seemed like they themselves were kinda tired and no so inspired about it. I totally get their decision to keep this dance, especially given Madi's concussion and time off the ice during the summer, but I also kinda felt that this year they could lower the bar a bit with the program and skate to something different just to have the opportunity to get back to the style that suits them the most in the Olympic season. So now I wonder about strategics and their plans for the next season - they now need another super cool program, that would be not too similar to the Snake FD but still engaging and dynamic, because there are at least 4 or 5 teams who are better in lyrical/classical kind of things. Would be interesting to see.

Honestly, I still don't get the scores of the Brits - yeah, they are entertaining and fun (and I personally enjoy Lilah's podcast), I love their upper body, especially Lewis, but if you pay attention to their feet - you can't unsee their flat edges and lack of actual skating. So I will never understand how they got higher SS than H/B, who had the best and most difficult OFStSq of the event.

Very proud of Sara/Kirill - while I am sorry they didn't make top-10 here, they skated the best they could given Sara's injury and very limited training. Speaking about next season - it will be interesting to see what they choose for the FD. Sara has been very clever with their packaging and choosing styles so far - it's something modern, then Spanish, than modern/romantic, then Spanish again. So in 2022 it should have been Spanish again, but they had to keep their Flamenco for two years, so we will see what they decide to do.

Music/styles predictions for the next season:
SinKats - 100% classy (and boring as some may say). I am sure them will choose blues and jazz, something they did for an Ella Fitzgerald exhibition. And also classical romantic FD - I'd bet on Spartacus or something like that.

Hubbell/Donohue - for me they also should choose a classy sexy blues, something similar to their 2017/18 FD and then powerful dramatic classical piece for the FD. I wouldn't mind even Tosca. They are the most powerful and fast couple in the world, they have to use this advantage. I love them, but I am sure they will choose another hideous hip hop mix for the RD and cheesy soundtrack for the FD... (fingers crossed I am wrong)

I think Piper and Paul will continue exploring the Canadian culture/ authentic pieces of music. And they definitely should have something fun and light for the RD - they are the best at doing it and again should use this opportunity to stand out

Also intrigued to see what the Brits will choose for Olympic season - they have had two fun and dancing FD, so wonder what they will do next

Sorry for the long post, I got carried away a bit

 

[allezfred]

My impression of the ice dance event at Worlds was that even with the non-season they had Papadakis/Cizeron would still have won if they had competed.

 

[Bigbird]

My impression of the ice dance event at Worlds was that even with the non-season they had Papadakis/Cizeron would still have won if they had competed.

I thought both HD and CB were really underscored.

If SinKats uses very uncluttered choreo but match that with speed and elegant arms does that really make their relatively uncreative copy cat programs the best?

If they were not Russian their almost constant spin issues, excessive use of crossovers and progressives and relatively poor posture especially in lifts and their shakiness at times would be marked down wouldn't it?

This competition was good with respect to the high number of quality performances but the scores just seemed off at times. Is it that only a particular type of packaging will score well?

The innovativeness of so many couples was just sneezed at. Hubbell's gorgeous posture not to mention Lawrence F/B....it was confusing...

 

[Orm Irian]

The strangest case would be the possibility that Harris & Chan could qualify a spot for Australia that they themselves may not actually be able to take, clearing the way for one of the Aussie teams that otherwise wouldn't have a prayer of qualifying a place to attend.

Both Kerry/Dodds and Friend/Badaoui have the TES minimums that qualify them to skate at both FCCs and the Olympics. There's no call to sneer at the possibility that one of them might represent Australia in Beijing, thank you very much.

 

[PRlady]

What’s interesting to me is that if you subtract teams that will probably retire after Beijing, you get a podium of S/B, the Brits and H/B (assuming the Danadians don’t continue due to his injuries.) with Z/G and the Chinese, who will get an Olys scoring boost at home, contending or passing them.

In other words, we are looking at another huge turnover moment like after Sochi where for a while we will tsk-tsk these puny teams getting medals.

 

[Colonel Green]

Both Kerry/Dodds and Friend/Badaoui have the TES minimums that qualify them to skate at both FCCs and the Olympics. There's no call to sneer at the possibility that one of them might represent Australia in Beijing, thank you very much.

I’d be happy for them if they got to go, and obviously it’s 100% allowed by the rules. It’s just a fact that they would stand little chance of qualifying one of the four Nebelhorn spots themselves.

 

[skategal]

I'm obviously very interested in the S/F-L/L jockeying for third. I'm probably the only one who is, but oh well, we all have our quirks.

What struck me about L/L's 1st Worlds is that they placed exactly where S/F placed in THEIR 1st Worlds, in 14th. (Obviously scores were higher this year.) And what's really interesting is that I see some other similarities between the teams. L/L have a lot of speed, like S/F. And like S/F, their levels were all over the place. It was especially interesting to notice how their Finnstep rose rather abruptly from L1 to L4 last season -- and here it was right back to L1. One could argue that this was due to a lack of competition this year -- but by the same token, one could point out that they had a lot of time to practice it, even with shutdowns.

S/F came out the gate strong in seniors, and then faltered because they kept making mistakes and struggling to find an identity. I don't know whether L/L will start to make mistakes -- I would guess not -- but I see signs of the same struggle in them. They (especially Marjorie) present themselves very confidently, which is a strength, but as I've complained before, they had no connection at all to their RD music. They did better with the FD, but a lot of people were commenting that it was a program that would have looked great on a different team, which again doesn't say much for their ability to interpret and inhabit a program. I know it was just viewer comments in the moment and you can't always go by those, but the general drift of the remarks was telling.

Despite the JWC title and all the hopes that were pinned on them, I suspect that if they don't work on their connection to their music and each other -- and on their levels -- L/L might fall victim to Lower Ranked Team at Montreal Syndrome. I think S/F did themselves a huge favor by going to Carol Lane, and while it may not have paid off yet -- L/L did beat them in the monitoring sessions -- it should prove to be a good move in the long run. Carol strikes me as the kind of coach who can help them with their particular weaknesses, plus they can get more attention there than they could in the Montreal factory. It may not be enough to get them to Beijing, but it very well may help them start rising through the ranks in the years afterward.

What Carol Lane will do with S/F is the most interesting part of Canadian ice dance right now and the biggest question mark of the upcoming season.

I can’t wait to see.

 

[Wyliefan]

I always thought they were very sharp in the RD (subjectivity?! in ice dance?! well I never!).

I didn't say they weren't sharp -- I said they didn't connect to the music. It's West Side Story, and even if it is a warhorse, it still has a meaning you have to understand and interpret. This cannot be done with a little black dress and a huge grin. Their packaging and interpretation was all wrong, even for skating to the jazziest parts of the score, and I'm surprised their team couldn't see that. If they had stuck with her dress from the beginning of the season and worked with them on understanding what they were skating to, and building their connection with each other, it would have been a lot better.

I'm not saying they're not good. They are. But they have lots of work to do.

 

[Colonel Green]

I didn't say they weren't sharp -- I said they didn't connect to the music. It's West Side Story, and even if it is a warhorse, it still has a meaning you have to understand and interpret.

That’s a matter of opinion, I suppose. Theirs was certainly relatively unconventional as far as WSS programs go, but so was Lee Haein’s 2018/19 free program. I don’t think you’re required to express the story of the source material; lots of programs don’t do that.

 

[Wyliefan]

What’s interesting to me is that if you subtract teams that will probably retire after Beijing, you get a podium of S/B, the Brits and H/B (assuming the Danadians don’t continue due to his injuries.) with Z/G and the Chinese, who will get an Olys scoring boost at home, contending or passing them.

In other words, we are looking at another huge turnover moment like after Sochi where for a while we will tsk-tsk these puny teams getting medals.

Are G/F retiring after Beijing? Italian ice dance will be in dire straits if they do.

 

[PRlady]

Are G/F retiring after Beijing? Italian ice dance will be in dire straits if they do.

I seem to remember they're planning to do that. They want a baby.

 

[Colonel Green]

Are G/F retiring after Beijing? Italian ice dance will be in dire straits if they do.

It has sounded fairly likely (they’re also the oldest of the current top teams).

I find the current paucity of depth in Italian ice dance a bit mystifying since unlike a lot of other mid-tier or small feds they have strong ice dance infrastructure. But Babs just hasn’t seemed to have any luck with her younger pairings.

 

[Wyliefan]

I seem to remember they're planning to do that. They want a baby.

Oh, well, can't blame them for that. Italian babies are very cute. But I'll miss them.

 

[VGThuy]

I will too. They somehow became my favorite team competing.

 

[Regretla]

Obviously we didn't have a ton of real ice dance competitions this season outside of Russia, but summarizing my thoughts on various national hierarchies, etc. this season:

Russia
Between the scoring for S/B at Russian nationals and the developments at the World Championships, it looks like, as far as the judges are concerned, the battle between Sinitsina/Katsalapov and Stepanova/Bukin is decisively over. It's all about pushing the former to Olympic gold now. And it must be said that, after a cascade of health problems this season, S/K looked as good as they ever have at Worlds, while S/B looked noticeably off their game in places.

Zahorski & Guerreiro seem solidly in third, with a whole bunch of teams queued up behind them jockeying for fourth on any given day. None seems particularly poised to make a move for the third Olympic spot.

United States
The most dramatic development of the season, arguably, in that Chock/Bates (through a combination of circumstances) have had their comeback momentum from the 2019/20 season fizzle out, and Hubbell/Donohue are back on top. for the time being.

Hawayek/Baker, in third, seem to have solidified their position going into the Olympic year. It doesn't feel like they're in any special danger of being caught, let alone by a team that could take their third ticket to the Olympics.

Carreira/Ponomarenko ended the season with a bold move for the future that will be interesting to track in the years ahead.

Canada
A season almost wholly defined by things not happening ended with a pretty big thing happening. People periodically queried whether Gilles/Poirier could be challenged for the #1 spot, but that's clearly not happening at this point. With their shiny new World medals, they're unquestionably the brightest star in Skate Canada's firmament.

Fournier Beaudry/Sorensen are firmly in second place.

The most potentially interesting matchup is one we didn't get at any point this season, namely, whether Soucisse/Firus can mount a challenge for the #3 spot. With the relatively conservative scoring at Worlds, S/F could easily end up with a higher season's best if they skate well at WTT, but that obviously doesn't say much of anything.

Japan
Yes, Japan has an ice dance field worth talking about now!

The much-discussed debut of Muramoto/Takahashi ended up being very much a work in progress. The lifts are clearly going to be the main challenge for the new team. Komatsubara/Koleto remain in front for now.

Yoshida/Nishiyama

Italy
Beneath Guignard/Fabbri's unchallenged reign as #1, this was a wild season of teams breaking up and recombining.

I've said many times previously that Italian ice dance desperately needs one of the younger teams to find another gear, and clearly they're working in that, even if it'll be a while before any results are evident.

France
Papadakis/Cizeron ended up sitting the season out, while Lauriault/Le Gac's descent continues. But France lost its second spot for both the Olympics and a home Worlds, so that sucks for everybody who is not P/C.

Miscellaneous
Fear/Gibson are rising like a rocket. The judging at Worlds firmly grouped them with F-B/S in a second tier of teams separted from both the top seven (counting the absent P/C) and several other teams who were also thought of as being in the second tier.

Considering that S/B started their season at Nationals, late December, I'd say they lost more training time than S/K.They lost their summer training, the test skates, Russian cups and the Grand Prix. Both teams had the virus as well and pretty badly. But there is never a real battle, their federation is always clear who gets the international support, and what the order is.

I think that Italy will find a team to continue G/F's legacy.They always seem to find the way out, I trust them.

I'm also interested in seeing how things develop for C/P, now they moved to Moir. And if when H/D and C/B retire there is going to be a battle between them and H/B for the national title.

 

[Colonel Green]

This is of course attributable in part to P/C’s non-participation, but this is the first World podium since 2016 where all the medalists had different coaches.

 

[MsZem]

In other words, we are looking at another huge turnover moment like after Sochi where for a while we will tsk-tsk these puny teams getting medals.

Who were those puny teams getting medals post-Sochi? The 2014 podium was okay, and then a year later P/C took over. There's always some wacky results on the GP, but I don't recall that period as being particularly up and down.

 

[Ka3sha]

Considering that S/B started their season at Nationals, late December, I'd say they lost more training time than S/K.They lost their summer training, the test skates, Russian cups and the Grand Prix. Both teams had the ***** as well and pretty badly. But there is never a real battle, their federation is always clear who gets the international support, and what the order is.

SinKats also missed part of the summer, test skates and had to withdrew from Russian Cup due to injuries - Nikita had problems with his back during the summer/early autumn and then they withdrew from Russian Cup event and spent few weeks off the ice due to Vika’s knee injury.

I just hope both teams have already had the share of injuries and misfortunes, and next season will be easier for them.

 

[Wyliefan]

Who were those puny teams getting medals post-Sochi? The 2014 podium was okay, and then a year later P/C took over. There's always some wacky results on the GP, but I don't recall that period as being particularly up and down.

I seem to remember a lot of angst about C/L winning. (Personally, I loved it!)

 

[love_skate2011]

Russia's Next No.1 after Sintkats retire ?

Meet Nepo power of Davis / Smolkin, they are working with Igor exclusively after C/P dumped him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyTQolJZUkw&t=152s

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

What’s interesting to me is that if you subtract teams that will probably retire after Beijing, you get a podium of S/B, the Brits and H/B (assuming the Danadians don’t continue due to his injuries.) with Z/G and the Chinese, who will get an Olys scoring boost at home, contending or passing them.

In other words, we are looking at another huge turnover moment like after Sochi where for a while we will tsk-tsk these puny teams getting medals.

My money would be on Kazakova/Reviya of Georgia as the up and coming breakout stars of the new quad.

 

[MsZem]

I seem to remember a lot of angst about C/L winning. (Personally, I loved it!)

I still think that the medals in 2014 were determined to some extent by the skating order in the final group. Which sucked for P/B, but what can you do.

Anyway, post-Olympic worlds

 

[mjb52]

I thought someone's idea that one or two of the current top teams might do the extra year or two past the Olympics while not staying for the whole quad thing was plausible, especially if they perceive that the field will be comparatively weak.

 

[Ka3sha]

I still think that the medals in 2014 were determined to some extent by the skating order in the final group. Which sucked for P/B, but what can you do.

Or by Katsalapov’s twizzles.

Also, as far as I remember, P/B were not clean in the SD either.

 

[Colonel Green]

I thought someone's idea that one or two of the current top teams might do the extra year or two past the Olympics while not staying for the whole quad thing was plausible, especially if they perceive that the field will be comparatively weak.

I feel like Stepanova/Bukin will, at a minimum, after all these near-misses.

Unrelatedly, looking at the ISU communication regarding Olympic spots, I’m reminded that we could very easily have three countries with three spots (guaranteed) but none with two.

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

Russia's Next No.1 after Sintkats retire ?

Meet Nepo power of Davis / Smolkin, they are working with Igor exclusively after C/P dumped him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyTQolJZUkw&t=152s

The Nepo power is also strong in the case of Morozov/Bagin.
I personally am holding out for Khudabarieva/Bazin, for the sheer entertainment factor.