Just call me Harry. (Everything Harry & Meghan)

[canbelto]

Would either of you have preferred that I prettied the term up and just called him "whipped"? Because the context still would have been there and I'm sure that I would have been accused, once more, falsely, of committing a micro-aggression.

Women, regardless of the color of their skin, are called "pushy" all the time (which is why Sheryl Sandberg wrote the book "Lean In"), so there wasn't and isn't any need to bring race into this and I'm very offended that you did so.

And, honestly, if that is the only response you have, @canbelto, to the content of my response and explanation as to why I think Meghan is driving the bus on this move to LA, then it makes it pretty clear that you are far too focused on race than on other factors that contributed to people's perceptions of them.

Black women are commonly called "pushy," "aggressive," "sassy," just like men of color are called "menacing." It is a classic microaggression.
Think about it: if Meghan is the one arranging for these multi-million dollar deals what the hell is wrong with it? She's earning income for a growing household with a husband that was born into so much money that he never developed any practical job skills. Why is she being called "pushy" and Harry "p__sy whipped"? Think about how offensive and degrading that sounds and ask yourself whether you'd say that about a white couple. Really.

 

[Karen-W]

Black women are commonly called "pushy," "aggressive," "sassy," just like men of color are called "menacing." It is a classic microaggression.
Think about it: if Meghan is the one arranging for these multi-million dollar deals what the hell is wrong with it? She's earning income for a growing household with a husband that was born into so much money that he never developed any practical job skills. Why is she being called "pushy" and Harry "p__sy whipped"? Think about how offensive and degrading that sounds and ask yourself whether you'd say that about a white couple. Really.

Frankly, I would say it about a white couple, and for you to flat out call me racist and attempt to insinuate that I wouldn't is just as offensive as you seem to believe I am being with your perceived micro-aggression. You don't know me apart from the interactions we have had on this board and, right now, it seems like you are bringing a lot of your own personal baggage into this discussion. Think about how offensive and degrading it is for anyone to be accused of racism where none exists.

You have yet to argue against any of the points that I made in my original response to you claiming I was committing a micro-aggression. I very clearly stated why I believe she is the one "driving the bus" so to speak. I do think she is the smarter of the two and that her professional/business experience is what is pushing them in the direction they've taken. And, yes, I do believe that her wings were clipped by, first, the BRF, and now by the pan-demic. That doesn't make her pushy. It just is stating that the BRF doesn't monetize itself the way she, clearly, wants to monetize she and Harry's status as royals. Would there have been a greater push in that direction without the pan-demic putting a hard stop to in-person appearances and the like? Absolutely.

Seriously, none of that has to do with her race, so stop trying to make this about race.

If you really want to accuse me of some micro-aggression then, maybe, you could potentially make an argument about gender stereotyping but, again, my original comment that you went straight to race with was that I thought her wings were being clipped. And, furthermore, at no point did I pass judgment on whether or not it was right or wrong for her wings to be clipped - it was a mere observation on my part. Even in my expanded explanation, I still don't pass judgment on the right or wrong of it, just state that she is, IMO, the one in control. I could care less who "wears the pants" in their family. That's for the two of them to work out, just between them, what works for their relationship.

 

[clairecloutier]

The concept of a man being "whipped" implies that his wife/girlfriend has "too much" influence in their relationship. The implication being that a man should have 51 percent power or more. That it's important that he be seen as "running things" or, at least, not in any way subservient to the woman (which would "unman" him). The term and concept are inherently sexist. It doesn't matter if the concept is widespread over cultures. It is still inherently sexist/misogynist.

 

[MsZem]

I think that Harry and Meghan are two fundamentally decent people who are doing their best to adapt to an unusual situation. They'll make some mistakes along the way, but everyone does that. Their mistakes just play out in a much more public way.

 

[Karen-W]

The concept of a man being "whipped" implies that his wife/girlfriend has "too much" influence in their relationship. The implication being that a man should have 51 percent power or more. That it's important that he be seen as "running things" or, at least, not in any way subservient to the woman (which would "unman" him). The term and concept are inherently sexist. It doesn't matter if the concept is widespread over cultures. It is still inherently sexist/misogynist.

And yet, he is the one out there, in that James Corden interview, stating that he was, at the least, co-driving their decisions. Sounds like he is playing into the gender stereotyping as much as anyone else.

 

[JJH]

The expression pussy-whipped or whipped is crude, derogatory and insulting to both the man and the woman.

I try to judge people by what they say and what they do and not by gossip, wild speculation and innuendo.

If Harry or Meghan choose to discuss how they arrived at their decisions I will be interested.

 

[canbelto]

Frankly, I would say it about a white couple, and for you to flat out call me racist and attempt to insinuate that I wouldn't is just as offensive as you seem to believe I am being with your perceived micro-aggression. You don't know me apart from the interactions we have had on this board and, right now, it seems like you are bringing a lot of your own personal baggage into this discussion. Think about how offensive and degrading it is for anyone to be accused of racism where none exists.

You have yet to argue against any of the points that I made in my original response to you claiming I was committing a micro-aggression. I very clearly stated why I believe she is the one "driving the bus" so to speak. I do think she is the smarter of the two and that her professional/business experience is what is pushing them in the direction they've taken. And, yes, I do believe that her wings were clipped by, first, the BRF, and now by the pan-demic. That doesn't make her pushy. It just is stating that the BRF doesn't monetize itself the way she, clearly, wants to monetize she and Harry's status as royals. Would there have been a greater push in that direction without the pan-demic putting a hard stop to in-person appearances and the like? Absolutely.

This is what you said:

Like I said, they're both a couple of narcissists who negatively reinforce to each other's worst perceptions, attitudes and behaviors.

and:

That's my issue with H&M. There is a degree of disingenuousness to their stated issues with the intrusiveness of the press into their personal lives that doesn't live up to scrutiny when you examine their actions.

Yet this is all Meghan's fault? Harry is just "p__sy whipped" and Meghan is driving that bus? Again, think about your attitudes and whether you'd feel this negatively towards Meghan if you didn't feel as if she was the wrong race for Harry.

I;m so sick of "poor Harry was ruined by evil Meghan" narratives. They're always racist and ignore the evidence that it was actually Harry who had pre-existing resentments against his royal life. And as I said, I haven't seen Meghan ONCE since she left the royal family. I've seen Harry on James Corden but that's it. If Meghan were really looking for fame she's done a piss-poor job of keeping herself visible. She has no social media, no appearances on TV outside of one on CNN.

And lemme guess. You hate Oprah too, because Oprah is "pushy"?

 

[MsZem]

@Karen-W - take the L. Whatever criticism you have of Harry and Meghan, the term you used was unacceptable.

I'm so sick of "poor Harry was ruined by evil Meghan" narratives. They're always racist and ignore the evidence that it was actually Harry who had pre-existing resentments against his royal life.

TBH I feel like Meghan is getting cast in the Wallis Simpson role here, and neither she not Harry deserve that.

 

[AxelAnnie]

This is what you said:


and:


Yet this is all Meghan's fault? Harry is just "p__sy whipped" and Meghan is driving that bus? Again, think about your attitudes and whether you'd feel this negatively towards Meghan if you didn't feel as if she was the wrong race for Harry.

I;m so sick of "poor Harry was ruined by evil Meghan" narratives. They're always racist and ignore the evidence that it was actually Harry who had pre-existing resentments against his royal life. And as I said, I haven't seen Meghan ONCE since she left the royal family. I've seen Harry on James Corden but that's it. If Meghan were really looking for fame she's done a piss-poor job of keeping herself visible. She has no social media, no appearances on TV outside of one on CNN.

And lemme guess. You hate Oprah too, because Oprah is "pushy"?

Fanticise much?

 

[AxelAnnie]

The concept of a man being "whipped" implies that his wife/girlfriend has "too much" influence in their relationship. The implication being that a man should have 51 percent power or more. That it's important that he be seen as "running things" or, at least, not in any way subservient to the woman (which would "unman" him). The term and concept are inherently sexist. It doesn't matter if the concept is widespread over cultures. It is still inherently sexist/misogynist.

Erroneous conclusion.

 

[kittyjake5]

ooops I will come back later when this thread calms down

 

[Wyliefan]

ooops I will come back later when this thread calms down

Don't hold your breath . . .

 

[Karen-W]

This is what you said:


and:


Yet this is all Meghan's fault? Harry is just "p__sy whipped" and Meghan is driving that bus? Again, think about your attitudes and whether you'd feel this negatively towards Meghan if you didn't feel as if she was the wrong race for Harry.

I;m so sick of "poor Harry was ruined by evil Meghan" narratives. They're always racist and ignore the evidence that it was actually Harry who had pre-existing resentments against his royal life. And as I said, I haven't seen Meghan ONCE since she left the royal family. I've seen Harry on James Corden but that's it. If Meghan were really looking for fame she's done a piss-poor job of keeping herself visible. She has no social media, no appearances on TV outside of one on CNN.

And lemme guess. You hate Oprah too, because Oprah is "pushy"?

Way to cherry-pick quotes there.

The original quote that you took exception to was:

She has also been limited by the pan-demic. I am cynical enough to believe that is the only thing clipping her wings.

There is NOTHING racist in that comment. Hell, I'm not sure there's anything misogynist in it either. But, you keep bringing your own baggage to the discussion and putting far more into it than exists, if you must.

@Karen-W - take the L. Whatever criticism you have of Harry and Meghan, the term you used was unacceptable.

Read the full use of the term... It's ridiculous to take offense at a term that is stating an "if-then" proposition. I didn't say that I thought he was whipped. Quite the opposite, actually.

Do I think that makes her pushy? I suppose it could, but the implication would then be that Harry is pussy-whipped. I don't think either is the case.

This whole argument is a tempest in a teapot that distracts from the real issue, which is, again, that what Harry & Meghan want to do with their brand goes against what the BRF is about. While I have no doubt that the race-baiting in the British tabloids was a significant factor in their desire to leave the life of working royals, I strongly believe there were other factors at play.

As others have alluded to - Meghan came in not really understanding the role of the BRF within British society or the fishbowl microscope that the BRF lives in, or the fact that, eventually, like an aging actress, she and Harry will become as irrelevant as Edward & Sophie to the press, plus I think she thought that the relationship between the BRF and the press was more akin to that of the Hollywood/celebrity press machine rather than the more adversarial one that exists. The BRF does not exist in of and for itself, but rather for the British people and, as a result, there is a degree of accountability and "well, this is my tax dollar" that puts the press in the position of questioning the spending habits and overall benefit to the nation that simply does not exist within the framework of the Hollywood/celebrity press machine that, instead, fawns all over people for how great they are in this movie or that show or doing good works a la Angelina Jolie, etc. I do think that Meghan and Harry miscalculated the level of influence and control they could exert or the degree of change they could bring to the institution of the BRF - again, that's ego at play, and it's probably more Harry's ego than hers, really.

All of those factors led to the untenable situation where they both wanted out. So, they got out. They crafted a plan, with a lot of input and knowledge from Meghan, on how to get out and live independent of the BRF where they could attempt to control the media narrative in a way that they simply cannot do within the BRF. What they do with themselves from here on out, what they would have done... Who's to say? We can't really know because the pan-demic has limited their visibility and noteworthiness. In that regard, Meghan's wings were clipped by the pan-demic.

 

[skategal]

TBH I feel like Meghan is getting cast in the Wallis Simpson role here, and neither she not Harry deserve that.

Agreed.

Wallis Simpson would have been booted out the door if Edward really wanted to remain King.

Similarly, if Harry wanted to stay in Britain there wouldn't be much that Meghan could have done to change that.

The Royal Family member has the control and the backing of the Monarch and the BRF.[/USER]

 

[Lemonade20]

PUSSYWHIPPED? Excuse me? That is so offensive on so many levels.
And @Lemonade20 her race is important because many of the criticisms of her are micro-aggressions often atttributed to black women.

I never brought up her race, that's why I'm upset someone else did. I was talking about how unlikely Harry would be moving to LA and doing Netflix deals if he was single.

 

[Karen-W]

I never brought up her race, that's why I'm upset someone else did. I was talking about how unlikely Harry would be moving to LA and doing Netflix deals if he was single.

If Harry was single, he would either be in London still or, possibly, Africa.

I don't know that I think if he was married to someone else he would still be in London. I think whomever he married, he would have followed her to the ends of the earth. If it had been Chelsy Davy and she wanted to return to Zimbabwe, that's where he'd be. If it had been some other girl, from say, Athens, that's where they would have wound up. Harry was, IMO, always looking for an out, and he, very conveniently, has a wife who wanted to be anywhere but London in the end. That she is from LA and has connections to the film/entertainment industry is just a perk.

 

[MacMadame]

I think this stuff annoys me, because work and life has become a lot harder over the last year and there's always these two plastered over the media with some kind of grievance. I just see it, and I think, what could they possibly know of what working people experience of the world? To me, they've just become symbols of the inequalities of life.

They have barely been in the media this year. Look at this thread and how little has been posted.

And this comes up every time they are in the media. They can't be in the media a few times a year without people saying they are always in the media.

They are in the media about what an actor who values his private life might be. They go to the media when they have a project to report and they keep us informed about major milestones like being pregnant (which is kind of hard to hide at a certain point) and that's about it. They aren't on social media posting their thoughts on everything every day like some other celebrities who have based their brand on themselves.

Meghan on the other hand is American (don't you dare bring up her race).

As long as we're demanding, here's mine: Don't you dare pretend you are a mind-reader and know what her real motivations are for everything.

Think about how offensive and degrading that sounds and ask yourself whether you'd say that about a white couple. Really.

Actually, this world is pretty sexist so they might.

And as I said, I haven't seen Meghan ONCE since she left the royal family. I've seen Harry on James Corden but that's it.

But, but, but... they've been PLASTERED all over the media! /sarcasm

I was talking about how unlikely Harry would be moving to LA and doing Netflix deals if he was single.

He's not single. When people get married and have kids, they make different decisions.

Not to mention, he has been disenchanted with royal life and life in the spotlight for a while. So I could see him moving to Canada and only coming to the UK a few times a year to do Inviticus type stuff even without being married. Also, it's not like before he was married that he didn't do things that put him in the spotlight. But sure, he's only doing things in the spotlight because of Meghan.

You know, he's dated a lot of English girls and he ended up with Meghan. There could be very good reasons for that including wanting to move to LA or at least out of the UK.

 

[MsZem]

You know, he's dated a lot of English girls and he ended up with Meghan. There could be very good reasons for that including wanting to move to LA or at least out of the UK.

I have no idea who Harry dated casually, but the only girlfriends I'm aware of were Chelsy Davy and Cressida Bonas, and Davy isn't English.

 

[wickedwitch]

Harry, along with pretty much all royalty, is very out of touch with most people. He's endured genuine tragedies and hardships in his life, but those hardships are very different from what most people endure. It's not necessarily easier, just different.

My impression is that he was and is looking for his place in the world, like most people do at one time or another, but his problem is that as much as he tries, I'm not sure he can ever really understand most of the world. I think Meghan helps with this, gives him an achor in the world, but her experience (like every other human's) is also limited. Both of them are familiar with using fame as essentially a job, so that's where they're starting. The Netflix deal and the like are just them testing the water, trying to find what works for them. I don't know them at all, so I don't know if this will make them happy in the end, but at worst they'll learn that it's one more thing that doesn't make them happy.

 

[Karen-W]

I have no idea who Harry dated casually, but the only girlfriends I'm aware of were Chelsy Davy and Cressida Bonas, and Davy isn't English.

Those are the only two long term, publicly known girlfriends he had before Meghan. I honestly think, had Davy come along ten years later in his life, he would have thrown off royal life for her to live in Zimbabwe, much the same as he's thrown off royal life to live in LA with Meghan. Harry has never been fully comfortable with his life as a royal, though he's also never been one to fully disavow it. Very much a "have my cake and eat it too" mentality from him, which is why, I think, he and Meghan tried for the half in/half out approach that the BRF shut down promptly.

 

[Judy]

Awhhhh I think he and his wife just look happy.

 

[starrynight]

They have barely been in the media this year.

But, but, but... they've been PLASTERED all over the media! /sarcasm

Are you American? It's completely different in other parts of the world - it's been a media saturation of these two. Where I live they are pretty much daily headlines, if every other day on a slow news week. And then on every magazine cover at the supermarket check outs. I imagine you guys have had your elections to be more concerned about, so I guess they are not in the media much in the US. I suspect that's probably want they are looking to change.

 

[overedge]

Davy isn't English by birth, but her family is/was part of the colonial landowning class in Zimbabwe. Which in some colonial countries is about as English as you can be without actually being English.

 

[canbelto]

Are you American? It's completely different in other parts of the world - it's been a media saturation of these two. Where I live they are pretty much daily headlines, if every other day on a slow news week. And then on every magazine cover at the supermarket check outs. I imagine you guys have had your elections to be more concerned about, so I guess they are not in the media much in the US. I suspect that's probably want they are looking to change.

Huh? No matter where you live in the world the pan demic has been the main source of news. Where do you live where the media has the luxury to plaster Harry and Meghan all over the news?

 

[starrynight]

Huh? No matter where you live in the world the pan demic has been the main source of news. Where do you live where the media has the luxury to plaster Harry and Meghan all over the news?

I'm sure anyone from Australia or the UK could vouch that these guys have been constantly in the media and the magazines. For example, there's two big articles about Harry and Meghan this morning (both about their website changes) and one lead one about Charles visiting Prince Phillip in hospital to address the future of the monarchy. Lots more on the day the Oprah interview was announced.

 

[alexikeguchi]

Are you American? It's completely different in other parts of the world - it's been a media saturation of these two. Where I live they are pretty much daily headlines, if every other day on a slow news week. And then on every magazine cover at the supermarket check outs.

Well, did you ever stop to think maybe that's on the media and not them? And perhaps that's why they decided to move to the US?

 

[starrynight]

Well, did you ever stop to think maybe that's on the media and not them? And perhaps that's why they decided to move to the US?

They are global superstars because Harry was born into a powerful ruling, aristocratic family based off hundreds of years of entrenched social and economic inequality.

The extent to which people can be comfortable with that, I think, depends on one's views of the world.

Harry and Meghan have actually really exposed the amount of privilege that is there, because they have been able to leave the UK (and any kind of reciprocal 'duties' that come with that privilege) and convert that into clear dollar figures and new mansions. (The UK system of inherited property and income does hide the money a lot).

I get that in this world there will be incredibly rich people and people who inherit vast fortunes. And the rich just get richer (through Netflix and Spotify deals). But I do feel uncomfortable with the adulation and platform that comes with money and power. It's just wolves in sheep's clothing when people like that try to paint themselves as champions against the system.

I think that's what gets me. It's the victim narrative they have built when they are in fact privileged beyond the wildest dreams of the average person. Especially given the hardship people have experienced throughout the world over the last year.

It's a bit like in their book, where all the main squabbles I heard about were over tiaras, hairdressers and shopping trips. Pretty silly rich people stuff.

I think this stuff annoys me, because work and life has become a lot harder over the last year and there's always these two plastered over the media with some kind of grievance. I just see it, and I think, what could they possibly know of what working people experience of the world? To me, they've just become symbols of the inequalities of life.

I'm just going to quote these again.

I think people just need to remember where exactly these two get their platform from and stop making them out to be some kind of heroes.

Anyone who believes in an equal society shouldn't be supporting and idolising people who have benefited off a system of entrenched social injustice and class inequality. No matter what pretty packaging they come in.

Why not support someone like Lebron James (who I got introduced to in this thread) who is a truly self made person who is an inspiration.

I know these views of mine are probably too left-wing for a royalist thread (which is usually a more right wing affair) but I do feel like it's a valid perspective. Maybe something just to keep in mind.

 

[canbelto]

I love Lebron James. He is an absolute inspiration to young people everywhere. He grew up in very difficult surroundings, got to where he is today because of his talent and discipline, and gives back to the community.

I don't have the same attachment to Harry and Meghan at all. But they are being blamed for things that aren't their fault. The British tabloids needing constant click-bait -- not their fault. Meghan's dad being a total turd and selling her letters to a tabloid -- not their fault. The British population finding out that actually, they're not ready for a mixed-race royal -- not their fault. Them needing to make money and signing a Netflix and Spotify deal -- not their fault. It's Netflix and Spotify's fault for perhaps overpaying them and overestimating their creative chops. We will see.

 

[starrynight]

As the British press... I don't know. I do think that any ruling class, like politicians, need to be closely watched.

I think if the press wasn't around, they'd be out of control - much the way until very recently royal families were all about harems, head chopping and all sorts of insanity. Goodness knows, Prince Andrew is still up to some of that even still. If there weren't any monitoring from the press it would be next level. There used to be laws in the UK prohibiting writing certain things about the royal family - that's why the US knew about Wallace Simpson but it was banned from publication in the UK. I don't think things should go back to being like that.

 

[MsZem]

The British population finding out that actually, they're not ready for a mixed-race royal -- not their fault.

I'm sorry, but this is quite a statement to make without at least a survey to back it up. The British tabloids ≠ the British population.