Figure skating in the United States is on thin ice

[Aussie Willy]

No, you get spirals from people who are good at them or want to do them.

Exactly. I hated doing them but had to do them for competition.

No, you only get good spirals from people who base their identity off of role modeling older skaters.

No you don't ONLY get good spirals from role models. Skaters need to have the basic flexibility to start with. They might be inspired by the good spirals but not every one is going to be a Kwan or Cohen.

As for comments about what IJS has been good for, the discipline that has probably improved the most by the introduction of IJS requirements is Synchronised Skating. It used to be marching girls on ice. Now the basic skating quality has risen along with the creativity and structure of the programs. And that is your biggest competitive division out of all of them. Not singles, pairs or dance. It's synchro.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

This would be helpful in so many ways. Many people like to experience sports like this. They want all the technical details. It makes it feel more like a "real" sport too. And, if all you want to do is listen to the music and enjoy the artistry, you can do that too. Just don't look at the box!

I feel like figure skating commentary in the US is still in the 1980s in terms of technology and overall level of discourse.

I agree that some people (like me for instance) actually LIKE learning the detailed rules for points/GOE/etc. It usually makes sense when you study the scoresheets. I like that aspect. But I'm not a typical person, who just wants to sit lazily and just take in the wonderful "artistry" of former World champs like Lipinski, Slutskaya, Ito, since apparently back then the winners were artistic wonders by the way some are talking. If USFS wants to appeal to their fanbase, they need to focus on the "numbers geeks" who can see this is a sport and not just a bad dance recital every four years where the prettiest skater should win.

As for actual skating participation, it is just TOO expensive. Russia has a wonderful funding system. USFS is broke and broken. And to add insult to injury Americans are forced to buy these worthless viewing packages to follow their favorites when Russia has it live-streamed for free across the world. But we've complained about how incompetent USFS is for decades now.

 

[Colonel Green]

And to add insult to injury Americans are forced to buy these worthless viewing packages to follow their favorites when Russia has it live-streamed for free across the world. But we've complained about how incompetent USFS is for decades now.

The foreign livestreams are subsidized by the domestic TV contracts and nationalistic considerations. NBC isn’t interested in giving this stuff away for free; what’s the incentive?

 

[Aussie Willy]

As for actual skating participation, it is just TOO expensive. Russia has a wonderful funding system. USFS is broke and broken. And to add insult to injury Americans are forced to buy these worthless viewing packages to follow their favorites when Russia has it live-streamed for free across the world. But we've complained about how incompetent USFS is for decades now.

No-one has any obligation to provide opportunities to participate in any sport. It is part of the free market. Just as rinks in the US and many parts of the world are private businesses. The best you can hope for is the government supports it with some funding. But I am not sure why you expect the USFSA to pay for every skater. Or why you are even getting your knickers in a knot over it.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

No-one has any obligation to provide opportunities to participate in any sport. It is part of the free market. Just as rinks in the US and many parts of the world are private businesses. The best you can hope for is the government supports it with some funding. But I am not sure why you expect the USFSA to pay for every skater. Or why you are even getting your knickers in a knot over it.

My knickers are not in a knot. In fact I'm wearing no knickers as we 'speak'. It's just so freaking annoying that it seems every year or so out comes some article about US skating being on thin ice or whatever nonsense. And I compared it to Russia, so forgive me dude, I'm just some guy here typing on a computer and expressing my point of view. So, deal. Americans can't afford to skate especially when Russia is this monolith of skating. No, I do not expect USFS to pay for ALL skaters, where would you get such a flimsy and pathetic response from my post? Sounds like I touched a nerve. NMP.

 

[Aussie Willy]

My knickers are not in a knot. In fact I'm wearing no knickers as we 'speak'. It's just so freaking annoying that it seems every year or so out comes some article about US skating being on thin ice or whatever nonsense. And I compared it to Russia, so forgive me dude, I'm just some guy here typing on a computer and expressing my point of view. So, deal. Americans can't afford to skate especially when Russia is this monolith of skating. No, I do not expect USFS to pay for ALL skaters, where would you get such a flimsy and pathetic response from my post? Sounds like I touched a nerve. NMP.

You haven't touched any nerve with me. And well you did seem rather angry in your response. Good for you if you like to go commando

 

[missing]

No-one has any obligation to provide opportunities to participate in any sport. It is part of the free market. Just as rinks in the US and many parts of the world are private businesses. The best you can hope for is the government supports it with some funding. But I am not sure why you expect the USFSA to pay for every skater. Or why you are even getting your knickers in a knot over it.

In the United States, that's actually not true.

Public high schools throughout the country field football, basketball, baseball and track and field teams, to mention just a few of the regular sports (obviously there are others).

Parks have basketball courts and fields for soccer and baseball. Many towns and cities have swimming pools. I lived in a town that had a golf course. The Williams sisters learned tennis on municipal courts. And as we saw from the recent bruhaha, New York's Central Park has skating rinks.

The United States, capitalism, education and sports have a long and complex set of relationships. But sports aren't limited to private businesses. It isn't just pay and play/don't pay and don't play. Tax payers do feel an obligation to provide opportunities to participate in a wide variety of sports.

 

[sap5]

This would be helpful in so many ways. Many people like to experience sports like this. They want all the technical details. It makes it feel more like a "real" sport too. And, if all you want to do is listen to the music and enjoy the artistry, you can do that too. Just don't look at the box!

I feel like figure skating commentary in the US is still in the 1980s in terms of technology and overall level of discourse.


I'm okay with this. Well, not your last sentence. But I think it's fine for US skaters to want to have a life and if that means we aren't as competitive on an international level, so be it.


People keep asserting that but I don't see any evidence to support it. If you are a casual fan who only turns in for Worlds and the Olympics, you aren't paying that much attention to the scoring system anyway. I follow many sports at the Olympics only and I get into trying to guess the scores or where they will place without understanding the system one iota. It's still fun especially if the commentators help you. And, again, IJS is much more like how sports in general work with adding up points vs. 6.0 which was actually pretty crazy in terms of trying to explain and understand.

Instead of pretending that all casual fans agree with us (whether that's preferring 6.0 or preferring IJS), I am hoping that the ISU and the NGB actually do some research to find out what casual fans really think and what it would take to bring them more into the sport. I'm guessing what they will find is that the scoring system is irrelevant. It's more important that people have personalities they want to follow (stars) as long as the scoring appears basically fair.

I think casual skating fans want to see what casual fans of any sport want to see -- people who love their sport do great things in it. Look at Elladj Balde -- he's getting millions of views because he's showing how much he loves skating, and how good he is at it.

With judging, I still think it's really not hard for commentators to put some graphics explaining basic elements, and how they are judged. Like "jumps are judged based on how they take off, position in the air, how well it is landed, and the risk factor of the jump.
A skater can fall, but still earn points based on anything that was done well."

 

[sap5]

In the United States, that's actually not true.

Public high schools throughout the country field football, basketball, baseball and track and field teams, to mention just a few of the regular sports (obviously there are others).

Parks have basketball courts and fields for soccer and baseball. Many towns and cities have swimming pools. I lived in a town that had a golf course. The Williams sisters learned tennis on municipal courts. And as we saw from the recent bruhaha, New York's Central Park has skating rinks.

The United States, capitalism, education and sports have a long and complex set of relationships. But sports aren't limited to private businesses. It isn't just pay and play/don't pay and don't play. Tax payers do feel an obligation to provide opportunities to participate in a wide variety of sports.

Absolutely. Most public schools in the US provide opportunities for their students to learn and play sports for free because this country does feel that society has an obligation to provide opportunities to participate in sport. Most cities have rec leagues with low or no-cost options for the same reason.

 

[Aussie Willy]

In the United States, that's actually not true.

Public high schools throughout the country field football, basketball, baseball and track and field teams, to mention just a few of the regular sports (obviously there are others).

Parks have basketball courts and fields for soccer and baseball. Many towns and cities have swimming pools. I lived in a town that had a golf course. The Williams sisters learned tennis on municipal courts. And as we saw from the recent bruhaha, New York's Central Park has skating rinks.

The United States, capitalism, education and sports have a long and complex set of relationships. But sports aren't limited to private businesses. It isn't just pay and play/don't pay and don't play. Tax payers do feel an obligation to provide opportunities to participate in a wide variety of sports.

Aren't those rinks in Central Park contracted to Trump? So if a private business doesn't operate them they don't run?

I was talking about rinks. Here all rinks are private businesses. But there are many public sports facilities which we have in Australia as well. I used to work for local government where we managed many sporting fields and took bookings for them.

But if a rink was run by a local government authority and it wasn't making money, are they going to continue operating a facility if it is not profitable?

 

[missing]

Aren't those rinks in Central Park contracted to Trump? So if a private business doesn't operate them they don't run?

I was talking about rinks. Here all rinks are private businesses. But there are many public sports facilities which we have in Australia as well. I used to work for local government where we managed many sporting fields and took bookings for them.

But if a rink was run by a local government authority and it wasn't making money, are they going to continue operating a facility if it is not profitable?

When I lived in the town that owned the golf course I used to watch the town board meetings on TV and there was constant complaining because the golf course was a money loser. So profit isn't necessarily required.

I just did a quick Google search and both New York and New Jersey have over a hundred high school ice hockey teams. So somehow the schools find a way to get rink time.

 

[ЭPiKUilyam]

Aren't those rinks in Central Park contracted to Trump? So if a private business doesn't operate them they don't run?

I was talking about rinks. Here all rinks are private businesses. But there are many public sports facilities which we have in Australia as well. I used to work for local government where we managed many sporting fields and took bookings for them.

But if a rink was run by a local government authority and it wasn't making money, are they going to continue operating a facility if it is not profitable?

And that's what it all comes down to (as with everything else in life...): MONEY. DH and I were talking about what we would do if we had a daughter who wanted to skate. It just costs way too much, and there will not be a backend perk/goal of a college scholarship. I'd put her in tennis or even golf (a friend's daughter got almost a full ride at a prestigious private university playing golf, and she is/was no Michelle Wie). Anna Scherbakova appears to come from a seemingly well to do family, but she has said she hasn't paid for anything skating related since juniors or even before. Russia is just too loaded with money for the rest of the world, particularly America, to be competitive. And Americans like WINNERS, and not just that, but charisma, and looks. So here in America you have mostly middle class or worse trying to balance not just the bills, but the getting up at 4am, the constant driving to and from rink, studio, gym, doing homework in the car (?!?!). Who would do that to their kid, all while blowing the money on a fantasy and then have no money for college? So, I'm mainly talking about ladies, but Russia has so much more money to spend to build champions. Comparing Americans with Russians is like talking about a battle where the Americans bring bows and arrows against Russia with full-out nuclear weapons. And then it's now even worse in America because networks don't want to waste airtime showing it!! And they won't even let vids stay up on Youtube. So America will always be "on thin ice". Not enough money.

Do I think the US government should contribute like Russia? Not at all. I'm more interested in seeing the minimum raise increased, healthcare that is affordable and accessible, whatever. But can't we just be able to WATCH it without spending $$ on crappy streams/service? I'm really not as irritated/angry as I might come across. It's just so frustrating. It seems like more than half are saying skating is dead in America because of IJS or the extinction of figures. No, it's because there is no money. I could actually go on for hours on this, but I'll stop now and listen to others' opinions/thoughts.

 

[Aussie Willy]

And that's what it all comes down to (as with everything else in life...): MONEY. DH and I were talking about what we would do if we had a daughter who wanted to skate. It just costs way too much, and there will not be a backend perk/goal of a college scholarship. I'd put her in tennis or even golf (a friend's daughter got almost a full ride at a prestigious private university playing golf, and she is/was no Michelle Wie). Anna Scherbakova appears to come from a seemingly well to do family, but she has said she hasn't paid for anything skating related since juniors or even before. Russia is just too loaded with money for the rest of the world, particularly America, to be competitive. And Americans like WINNERS, and not just that, but charisma, and looks. So here in America you have mostly middle class or worse trying to balance not just the bills, but the getting up at 4am, the constant driving to and from rink, studio, gym, doing homework in the car (?!?!). Who would do that to their kid, all while blowing the money on a fantasy and then have no money for college? So, I'm mainly talking about ladies, but Russia has so much more money to spend to build champions. Comparing Americans with Russians is like talking about a battle where the Americans bring bows and arrows against Russia with full-out nuclear weapons. And then it's now even worse in America because networks don't want to waste airtime showing it!! And they won't even let vids stay up on Youtube. So America will always be "on thin ice". Not enough money.

Do I think the US government should contribute like Russia? Not at all. I'm more interested in seeing the minimum raise increased, healthcare that is affordable and accessible, whatever. But can't we just be able to WATCH it without spending $$ on crappy streams/service? I'm really not as irritated/angry as I might come across. It's just so frustrating. It seems like more than half are saying skating is dead in America because of IJS or the extinction of figures. No, it's because there is no money. I could actually go on for hours on this, but I'll stop now and listen to others' opinions/thoughts.

Our skating club ran an event live stream last year. It is not cheap to do so we had to charge for it. But we did it for a couple of reasons. One because we couldn't fly in a Technical Specialist so they called it through the live stream (then rang me to confirm the elements). And because we were limited on audience numbers at the venue so we streamed so others could watch.

I can only imagine the logistics of running a US event is a lot more than what ours was. It would probably cost thousands to run it. And live streams can be notorious for problems. Hell trying to watch Worlds in Australia via the ISU live stream which is based on a professional production? Can be very frustrating.

 

[overedge]

Absolutely. Most public schools in the US provide opportunities for their students to learn and play sports for free because this country does feel that society has an obligation to provide opportunities to participate in sport. Most cities have rec leagues with low or no-cost options for the same reason.

Providing the facilities is not the same as providing opportunities. Even if a league is low or no-cost, that may not be useful if participants can't easily get to the facility, or if they don't feel it's safe to play sports there.

One of the barriers to participating in skating is that it's not always easy, or even possible, to get to and from a rink on public transit, especially if you're dragging a wheeled bag with all your gear in it. Not all rinks are located near transit lines, and not all of them have regular transit service, particularly on evenings or weekends.

 

[MacMadame]

Aren't those rinks in Central Park contracted to Trump? So if a private business doesn't operate them they don't run?

In a lot of places, running of public facilities is contracted out to a private company. If one private company decides they don't want to do it anymore, then they put the contract out to bid and other company picks it up.

IOW, the facility is still owned by the city/school/county and they have ultimate control.

As an example, the Oakland rink is owned by the City of Oakland, but Sharks Ice runs it for them. It still belongs to the City of Oakland though and they could turn around and give the contract to someone else if they became dissatisfied with the Sharks Ice management of the rink. Or Sharks Ice could decide the contract wasn't worth it to them and either renegotiate the contract or walk away.

There is a company here that ran the swim program at a High School that walked away from the contract recently (early into the pandemic, I think) because running a swim program was really outside their wheelhouse and they decided it wasn't worth it anymore.

 

[mjb52]

I think this weekend I'll try to do a bit of a deep dive on the history of what makes something a NCAA scholarship sport vs. non-scholarship sport; this conversation has me curious. If anyone has any reading suggestions, let me know!

 

[AxelAnnie]

I think this weekend I'll try to do a bit of a deep dive on the history of what makes something a NCAA scholarship sport vs. non-scholarship sport; this conversation has me curious. If anyone has any reading suggestions, let me know!

Wouldn't it mean that there is a team there and they compete against other NCAA teams? I can't see.that ever happening on skating.

 

[giselle23]

Going to argue that at surface level, maybe that's how 6.0 came across. But the second mark, particularly in the short but not exclusively, was often used as the way to get the desired result by each judge. The short program had mandatory deductions. If a top skater was hit with a few of those and had to play catch up, their presentation score could always be bumped up a tenth or two, or however much versus skater B, so that the deductions really didn't matter anymore.

So in reality, they still weren't equal and never will be as artistry/presentation/program components are still subjective.

Also, with the crazy differences in attempted content between the top skaters in both mens and ladies, I like that there is a separation rather than handing Skater A with 5 quads a 5.9 and skater B with only a triple Axel a 5.8, or whatever, and then simply giving skater B the second mark.

Under 6.0, if a top skater got deductions in the short program, it was usually fatal for getting the gold medal unless others made mistakes. I really don't recall a situation where the second mark bumped someone up in that situation. I'm sure there may be some, but I don't think it was the rule.

 

[giselle23]

I came into judging just as 6.0 was being wound down and IJS came in. I hated judging with 6.0. While you gave a value, it was still about placing skaters and then having to justify those placements.

Love judging with IJS so much more. And the results make more sense because they can be explained.

In Australia here, with our Learn to Skate program Aussie Skate we now have IJS as the basis for our judging. All the skaters get their elements individually assessed and marked under two components. A lot of work has gone into it and it is facilitated either using ISUCalc or an Excel spreadsheet. It was one of my goals when I took on the role of Sport Development Chair a couple of years ago.

Kids going forward in Australia won't have a clue that it ever existed except when they watch old programs.

The issue isn't really whether the superfans like it. It's whether is affects the sport's overall popularity. I don't know if it does. But the general public's interest in the sport, in the US at least, has declined since the scoring system changed.

 

[tony]

Under 6.0, if a top skater got deductions in the short program, it was usually fatal for getting the gold medal unless others made mistakes. I really don't recall a situation where the second mark bumped someone up in that situation. I'm sure there may be some, but I don't think it was the rule.

I'm not talking about their quest for the gold medal solely, and not sure what you mean by 'the rule'. There were plenty of instances of a top skater having an off-performance and still getting thrown a 5.9 for presentation (or something high) to keep them in some kind of mix rather than tanking their score completely. I'd also ETA and argue here that sometimes a top skater might have a 0.4 deduction, was unlikely to get a 5.9 with a clean skate, but was handed the 5.5 anyways.

So yes, the judges were still able to manipulate the scores via the second mark to an extent. At the end of the day, it was still possible to get the majority of placements they wanted by adjusting the individual marks to get ordinals they wanted. If there was too much of a deficit, then obviously not.

And there's the whole issue of boxing in within the LP. Sometimes by the end of the competition the scores were really making no sense individually, and the judges were just finding the correct combination to get the desired ordinal anyways.

 

[Coco]

Some of the wealthiest public high schools in Wisconsin have their own rinks. The rink then becomes a limited income earner for the school district as it can be rented when it's not being used by the school.

I wonder if there is grant money available to build public rinks/sports facilities attached to schools that can also be used by the community.

 

[once_upon]

I think the tie in to college scholarships is an important point to think about. I also think that the potential ability for participants to earn a lot of money plus the prestige for the high school, college as they "produce" highly sought after athletes plays into the public support of team sports like football, baseball, hockey.

Skating and gymnastics are generally single competitors, not much earning ability unless you are a Kwan or Biles.

Not much prestige for communities. For example NFL players are often introduced as _______, the Ohio State or _____, LSU. Skaters aren't introduced as ______, from _______.

Basically, limited income for the skater, a college, a community.

Who other than us die hard fans tune in to ISU competition each week? Who other than die hard fans read the ISU requirements each season? (I know several people who spend hours studying the penalty rules for the highly popular [in the US] NFL - and they also change every season.)

I think it goes back to money - both on the expenditure side and the potential future earnings side.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

What intercollegiate competition is there in skating?

 

[Sylvia]

What intercollegiate competition is there in skating?

The National Intercollegiate Team Final is usually held each spring (link to goes to the 2019-20 season team competition results; Final was cancelled last year): https://www.usfigureskating.org/skate/skating-opportunities/collegiate-skating

ETA that figure skating is a club, not varsity, level sport at U.S. colleges and depends on interested students to run/organize their respective clubs in order to participate in these intercollegiate competitions.

This IG account was started by USFS in November 2020: https://www.instagram.com/uscollegiateskating/

 

[MacMadame]

The issue isn't really whether the superfans like it. It's whether is affects the sport's overall popularity. I don't know if it does. But the general public's interest in the sport, in the US at least, has declined since the scoring system changed.

It's been on the decline since Kwan stopped being so dominant and then retired and no Ladies skater took her place as well.

I suspect that has more to do with it since interest in Japan went up when they started getting on the podium regularly. People like winners.

 

[thvu]

The issue isn't really whether the superfans like it. It's whether is affects the sport's overall popularity. I don't know if it does. But the general public's interest in the sport, in the US at least, has declined since the scoring system changed.

Correlation does not mean causation.

 

[Vash01]

I have not read the article yet. I plan on reading it in the next 24 hours Max, but as soon as I saw the title, I was surprised.

Why is it seen in a negative light? The US is almost guaranteed a gold in men in worlds and the next Olympics, May be longer. They have a great chance of winning at least one medal in Ice dance at the next world and Olympics.

The US was never strong in pairs. It was very strong in Ladies for decades. The drop off has been in just one discipline- ladies. It is not like they digressed. It is just that Japan and Russia got ahead, way ahead of them. US ladies dominated for decades. Now it could be Russia’s turn In Ladies. Russia/USSR were very strong in pairs, ice dance, and for a decade in men. They have dropped off in men.

These things go in cycles. I see no reason to panic. If they are talking about popularity of the sport, it was always popular among a very small fraction of fans. It will never be like football, Baseball, basketball, or even Tennis.

Now I am curious to read what the article says.

 

[attyfan]

I think that another problem with skating in the US is that it is Olympic-centered -- so if the skating at an Olys isn't the kind that makes people say "I want to see more of this", fewer and fewer people watch other skating events. In 1994, when record numbers were watching (due to "the whack"), they also got superlative skating in all disciplines -- and it wasn't limited to the medalists. After all, I think a lot of people would want to see more of something like Kurt Browning's "Casablanca". By 2006, by contrast, this was gone -- instead, there were things like five falls in the short dance, two skaters badly injured, etc.

 

[mjb52]

Another thing that I personally hate but recognize as a factor is that rivalries really help. It's not my thing but it is pretty much undeniable that the Battle of the Brians, the Battle of the Carmens, Harding/Kerrigan, Kwan/Lipinski, Medvedeva/Zagitova now in Russia - all that stuff really pushes interest. Chen/Hanyu doesn't seem to quite have the same push and I wonder if that's because of Chen's SP issue making Pyongchang pretty much a foregone conclusion, so that it didn't take off as a pivotal rivalry in the US where people tend more to tune in for the Olympics. And it's sort of one-sided I guess? The Hanyu fans seem really intense about it but I don't get the impression there is this huge Nathan Chen stan community that is obsessed in the same way, maybe he is just so laid-back and chill that it rubs off on his fans! Even the Pasha/Usova/Zhulin stuff brought ice dance a lot of attention. What I don't like is that it takes a toll on the skaters. It brings fans in, but it also brings a lot of negatives. It's a tough balance.

 

[tony]

Another thing that I personally hate but recognize as a factor is that rivalries really help. It's not my thing but it is pretty much undeniable that the Battle of the Brians, the Battle of the Carmens, Harding/Kerrigan, Kwan/Lipinski, Medvedeva/Zagitova now in Russia - all that stuff really pushes interest. Chen/Hanyu doesn't seem to quite have the same push and I wonder if that's because of Chen's SP issue making Pyongchang pretty much a foregone conclusion, so that it didn't take off as a pivotal rivalry in the US where people tend more to tune in for the Olympics. And it's sort of one-sided I guess? The Hanyu fans seem really intense about it but I don't get the impression there is this huge Nathan Chen stan community that is obsessed in the same way, maybe he is just so laid-back and chill that it rubs off on his fans! Even the Pasha/Usova/Zhulin stuff brought ice dance a lot of attention. What I don't like is that it takes a toll on the skaters. It brings fans in, but it also brings a lot of negatives. It's a tough balance.

Also, social media has shown that the majority of skaters all get along just fine and really are all working hard and supporting each other to do their best. When the only news we got about skaters was in a bi-monthly magazine or random news update, I think it was a lot easier to push a rivalry— no one really knew any better.

ETA- that is unless you’re Weir and Lysacek. That one US Nats interview with both of them together still has me