Is Michelle Kwan underrated

[Fiero425]

Well, it's not as if Irina didn't get any gifts in her career. She got a major one in the 2001-02 GPF and then Kwan was pretty much shut out of Worlds no matter how she skated. And even if Irina placed first after the SP, there's no telling what would have happened in the LP. Irina could have found some way to muck it up anyway. And maybe if Cohen learned to skate on edges by 2002 she could have beaten Kwan in the SP. Kwan can't help it that she was just da bomb diggity at that point in comparison to her competition. Cohen placing ahead of Fumie Suguri at that time in their career in a sport called figure skating where skating skills should be important and then keeping her stockings after she "borrowed" them from Suguri was reward enough.

Again, if it was telecast, I saw it! That was more than a gift at the '02 GPF! Irina was awful and if memory serves, she only completed 3 triples! I just thought MK and her minions probably should have been the last to be "rolling their eyes" after so many times MK's ripped off a medal or standing! It was almost as embarrassing as one of those Pro/Am events set in Canada where Michelle lost to Josee Chouinard who was floundering all over the ice! It was ridiculous with her practically leaving the ice with bloody knees and elbows taking GOLD! It's hard to take the sport seriously when things like this happen; or worse to this day!

 

[AxelAnnie]

I always see the title of this thread as:. Is Michelle Kawn Interrotated?

 

[syzygy]

I always see the title of this thread as:. Is Michelle Kawn Interrotated?

And I read this as "Is Michelle Kwan Interrogated"

Excuse me Miss Kwan, are you more overrated or underrated?
Michelle: I-
Okay everyone, wise words from Michelle today. And now back to Tara and Johnny with more valuable commentary.

 

[olympic]

A

95 Worlds I wouldn't give her the title, but definitely a medal ahead of Surya. I think going 1-2-3 with Lulu, Michelle and Nicole or especially Lulu, Nicole and Michelle would have been fine. Surya had mistakes in both programs and were very rough.

97 Worlds she could have the title if one more judge put Vanessa ahead of Tara in the short. As it was, both the short and free were judged very tightly. I would have given Michelle the win for that competition, but momentum dictated otherwise.

99 Worlds - the fall in the short almost didn't matter because even if she hadn't fallen and been in control of her destiny, her lacklustre free would still have lost to Maria. Silver was exactly what she deserved.

02 Worlds - she paid the price for the mistake in the short but I would actually have her win the free. Still silver though.

04 Worlds - she lost momentum on a weaker qualifying skate and an overtime in the short, but the judging for Miki and even Shizuka with the cheated 3/3 were also suspect in both QR and SP. Michelle deserved the bronze but not higher.

05 Worlds - probably deserved bronze.

IDK about 95 Worlds. Nicole killed it in the SP then fell twice in the LP, but she had the 3-3 albeit w/ a wonky landing. She skated 'big' and fast. Surya did not have great SS but that LP was one of the better skates in her career. Under 6.0, the judges had freedom to place her 'good' skate while considering her WC rep onto the podium. OTOH, MK at the age of 14 was solid but junior-ish in many respects, but I don't really want to take anything away from her because it was a very good championship for her.

Wasn't MK ill at 99 Worlds? I also always thought she was taking a break in her head. IOW, she was not as focused as the past 3 seasons. Maybe it was the post-Nagano blues. IDK, but I agree that the title belonged to Bute alone w/o question.

Falls at 04 and 05 Worlds probably kept her from placing higher. You can tell though that the judges were waiting for Sasha to deliver in 04 but she failed. I didn't consider MK's 03-04 LP to be all that great in comparison to her other LPs, and I appreciated Shizuka's breakthrough that year. While I saw the cheated jumps, I think they were groundbreaking in their ambition at the time (3-3-2). Yet, Michelle could have beaten Shiz in the LP had she not doubled the Lutz. Had she done that and stood up in the QR, would she have place higher? I think she would've knocked Kostner off the podium in 05 with a clean QR and LP, but not enough to catch Sasha or Irina (skating in Moscow).

---

What is so bittersweet about her career is how close she was to 2 Olympic titles. I believe she would have won in Nagano if there had just been one added element in her LP; could have been a 3T-3T, clean 3F or maybe just skating faster on top of the music, she would IMO beaten Tara 5-4. I believe the AUS and HUN judges had her 0.1 behind Tara (I will have to check again), combine with the US, GER and POL judges and she realistically could have won.

In 2002, had that 3F been clean, Kwan would've won. I don't think she even needed a 3-3 that year to win. Just clean. The 2nd solo 3T was smart. There were 5-6 judges that had her 0.1-0.2 behind what it would've been necessary to win. I think the fall was jarring to the program and dropped the 2nd mark a touch. She was on the ice in that unattractive position for what seemed like forever.

 

[VGThuy]

At 1995 Worlds, the only argument I can see that would result in Kwan getting a medal is if she placed higher in the SP, which is a very reasonable argument considering her content. The most reasonable placement would have been 4th but the overall results would have been the same. IMO, Bonaly should have been behind Kwan in the short but most likely not so behind that a higher LP placement wouldn't overtake Kwan overall. The fact that Kwan got a third place finish in the LP was a sign that the judges would reward her but she needed to make some improvements. IMO, what did it for her next season was not just the superficial transformation but having better extension and more speed and power in her skating than she did in 1995. Btw, 1995 was really fun because it was one of the few Worlds where Kwan at fifth place could have won the whole thing had she won the LP, and she skated last, and did everything she was supposed to do, including 7 triples and two triple/double combos/sequence AND with two double axels. You knew she was a competitor when she had a no-speed exit out of her first Lutz, so she tacked on the double toe in sequence on her second Lutz knowing she had to do that in order for it to count. That kind of move was a result of discipline and being well-prepared by coaching but also an innate killer instinct.

 

[Erin]

At 1995 Worlds, the only argument I can see that would result in Kwan getting a medal is if she placed higher in the SP, which is a very reasonable argument considering her content.

I would have had Kwan second in the free without changing any of the other long program placements. Even without changing her short program placement, that would have been enough to give her the silver medal [Chen 2.5 (3, 1), Kwan 4.5 (5, 2), Bobek 4.5 (1, 4), Bonaly 5.0 (4, 3)]. Although I think there is an argument to have her ahead of Bonaly in both programs.

That said, if she had finished second, I wonder if we would have seen the same transformation in her skating the next year. So maybe the judges did us a favour in retrospect.

 

[bardtoob]

I think Kwan outskated Surya in the SP at 1995 Worlds. Surya might have been older, but juniorish Michelle was still a better cleaner skater with more difficulty. It was the worst kind of "wait your turn" politics because Surya's didn't have more polish.

... I actually think Surya did her best skating in 1998 and onwards, when she actually had speed into her jump entries, good outflowing edges, and showed variety in her steps. She was a phenomenal pro skater.

 

[syzygy]

I think Kwan outskated Surya in the SP at 1995 Worlds. Surya might have been older, but juniorish Michelle was still a better cleaner skater with more difficulty. It was the worst kind of "wait your turn" politics because Surya's didn't have more polish.

... I actually think Surya did her best skating in 1998 and onwards, when she actually had speed into her jump entries, good outflowing edges, and showed variety in her steps. She was a phenomenal pro skater.

I was waiting for someone to say this. Michelle had clean edges into her jumps and just throughout (back then even the lutz), Surya's looked choppy. I will say, she did look like she muscled her way through jumps which went away when she got older and stronger, but that's nothing that Surya didn't do either.

 

[Skibean]

Yes, Michelle had the flu at 1999 Worlds and still managed a silver. She was also skating injured at 2005 Worlds yet managed 4th. That scoring at that event was almost ridiculous though.

 

[Fiero425]

Yes, Michelle had the flu at 1999 Worlds and still managed a Silver. She was also skating injured at 2005 Worlds yet managed 4th. That scoring at that event was almost ridiculous though.

You say "managed," some say stole! I say Kwan should have been in 5th place after the SP behind Malinina to start in 1999!

 

[Skibean]

You say "managed," some say stole! I say Kwan should have been in 5th place after the SP behind Malinina to start

I would have to rewatch but maybe so, however the judges did that. Michelle didn’t steal it. Kinda like Zagitovas 5th place finish at Worlds after her majorly bombing. Not really her fault, but the judges did that Reputation matters.

 

[olympic]

A


IDK about 95 Worlds. Nicole killed it in the SP then fell twice in the LP, but she had the 3-3 albeit w/ a wonky landing. She skated 'big' and fast. Surya did not have great SS but that LP was one of the better skates in her career. Under 6.0, the judges had freedom to place her 'good' skate while considering her WC rep onto the podium. OTOH, MK at the age of 14 was solid but junior-ish in many respects, but I don't really want to take anything away from her because it was a very good championship for her.

Wasn't MK ill at 99 Worlds? I also always thought she was taking a break in her head. IOW, she was not as focused as the past 3 seasons. Maybe it was the post-Nagano blues. IDK, but I agree that the title belonged to Bute alone w/o question.

Falls at 04 and 05 Worlds probably kept her from placing higher. You can tell though that the judges were waiting for Sasha to deliver in 04 but she failed. I didn't consider MK's 03-04 LP to be all that great in comparison to her other LPs, and I appreciated Shizuka's breakthrough that year. While I saw the cheated jumps, I think they were groundbreaking in their ambition at the time (3-3-2). Yet, Michelle could have beaten Shiz in the LP had she not doubled the Lutz. Had she done that and stood up in the QR, would she have place higher? I think she would've knocked Kostner off the podium in 05 with a clean QR and LP, but not enough to catch Sasha or Irina (skating in Moscow).

---

What is so bittersweet about her career is how close she was to 2 Olympic titles. I believe she would have won in Nagano if there had just been one added element in her LP; could have been a 3T-3T, clean 3F or maybe just skating faster on top of the music, she would IMO beaten Tara 5-4. I believe the AUS and HUN judges had her 0.1 behind Tara (I will have to check again), combine with the US, GER and POL judges and she realistically could have won.

In 2002, had that 3F been clean, Kwan would've won. I don't think she even needed a 3-3 that year to win. Just clean. The 2nd solo 3T was smart. There were 5-6 judges that had her 0.1-0.2 behind what it would've been necessary to win. I think the fall was jarring to the program and dropped the 2nd mark a touch. She was on the ice in that unattractive position for what seemed like forever.

I couldn't edit my post above, but if Michelle's TM mark in '98 had gone from 5.7-> 5.8 on the cards of the AUS and HUN judges she would've beaten Tara on both by a tie-breaker (5.8/5.8 v 5.7/5.9) and taken the LP by 5-4. It looks like the AUT, UKR, RUS and FRA judges locked Tara in at 5.9/5.9. Then again, she skated next to last

If Michelle had not fallen on the 3F, +0.1 on both sets of marks, she probably would've taken 1st in the LP on the cards of the GER, DEN, ITA (tie-break), FIN, CAN and USA judges. Six judges. Enough to win there, too. The RUS, BLR and SVK judges locked Slute in at 1st

 

[Vagabond]

Underrated, schmunderated!

Is she understated? Understood? Undeterred? And what will Sybil name "her" next alter? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Fiero425]

I would have to rewatch but maybe so, however the judges did that. Michelle didn’t steal it. Kinda like Zagitovas 5th place finish at Worlds after her majorly bombing. Not really her fault, but the judges did that Reputation matters.

I think it all caught up with MK later on! There were several occasions that she was clearly robbed of a victory, but most would think back to wins/medals she didn't deserve, but was "held up" because of her name! I was one of those people never really impressed by Kwan! She was better than typical American skaters with "a stick up her arse" in more ways than one, but she never came close to the grace and style of Sasha Cohen! SC did too much early on and paid for it with a lot of underachievement on her part! Irina Slutskaya was more "a jumper" and deservedly took over that mantle from Surya Bonaly in '96, but the judges started favoring her anyway over Kwan! By '99 it was almost embarrassing how out of favor MK had become Internationally IMO! I can still see this Canadian Pro/Am event in my head where she lost to Josie Chouinard who fell at least 3 times! The commentators were absolutely struggling trying to justify the decision! Irina Slutskaya took over their rivalry and the judges went with her even at a GP Final completing only 3 triples, but eyes rolled as she took GOLD over MK yet again! Skating hasn't been as entertaining since those drama filled days of scoring controversies, coaching changes, and wild, extraordinary accusations going on behind the scenes!

 

[Skibean]

I remember when the judges started rewarding Irina for mediocre performances, but that was the power of the Russian federation.
Sasha probably could have won it all if she skated clean. The judges wanted to reward her, but she could never put together 2 clean programs. I also thought Cohen at times displayed a less than sportsmanlike attitude towards other competitors, but that’s another topic altogether.
It really is a shame Kwan isn’t a 2 time Olympic champion. It was within her grasp twice, possibly three times, but she was very injured in ‘06. She’s probably the greatest skater never to win the Olympic gold and I’ve always thought Medvedeva’s Olympics were very reminiscent of 1998. The younger energizer bunny defeats the overall better skater.

 

[Skibean]

What accusations were going in behind the scenes? I’ve never heard that

 

[Fiero425]

What accusations were going in behind the scenes? I’ve never heard that

OCO, what else? Child exploitation, endangerment, and molestation!

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

She was better than typical American skaters with "a stick up her arse" in more ways than one, but she never came close to the grace and style of Sasha Cohen!

The vulgarity is inappropriate and unnecessary.

She had limitless potential but never capitalized in her brief career.

Michelle Kwan is a figure skating legend and has name recognition with the general public. Miss Cohen is a mere footnote.

-BB

 

[olympic]

I remember when the judges started rewarding Irina for mediocre performances, but that was the power of the Russian federation.
Sasha probably could have won it all if she skated clean. The judges wanted to reward her, but she could never put together 2 clean programs. I also thought Cohen at times displayed a less than sportsmanlike attitude towards other competitors, but that’s another topic altogether.
It really is a shame Kwan isn’t a 2 time Olympic champion. It was within her grasp twice, possibly three times, but she was very injured in ‘06. She’s probably the greatest skater never to win the Olympic gold and I’ve always thought Medvedeva’s Olympics were very reminiscent of 1998. The younger energizer bunny defeats the overall better skater.

Re Slute - Which time period? Intl. Judges always appreciated her and I think she began to fill that vacuum around 2000 as Kwan's chief challenger. As a result, her 2nd mark was probably higher than it should have been. I do recall 'talk' at SLC during the judge's scandal that the RUS Fed was trading for the men and pairs but sacrificing the ladies title. It made me think their respect was more geared towards those two disciplines.

 

[bardtoob]

You say "managed," some say stole! I say Kwan should have been in 5th place after the SP behind Malinina to start in 1999!

The Eastern Bloc was not as powerful in Ladies figure skating back then and typically concentrated its political clout on Pairs, Dance, and Men's singles, where it consistently produced medalists. When Maria won Worlds in 1999 it was the first sweep in all four events by one country and the first Russian Ladies World Champion, and the Eastern Bloc probably got it at the expense of the non-Russian Eastern Bloc countries since they did not contribute to a sweep, including Malinina.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

The fantastic presentation of Kwan should have kept her in the top three after the short program,even with the required deduction.

-BB

 

[Marco]

I think Kwan outskated Surya in the SP at 1995 Worlds. Surya might have been older, but juniorish Michelle was still a better cleaner skater with more difficulty. It was the worst kind of "wait your turn" politics because Surya's didn't have more polish.

... I actually think Surya did her best skating in 1998 and onwards, when she actually had speed into her jump entries, good outflowing edges, and showed variety in her steps. She was a phenomenal pro skater.

Absolutely. I wonder if the judges ever cared about rules or deductions?!

Lutz combo - Michelle had a slow landing but Surya had hand down (deduction).
3flip - Surya had virtually NO steps into hers which should have been a 0.3 deduction.
2axel - even, but Michelle held her landing more.
Layback - Surya travelled quite visibly despite attempting a difficult variation (deduction).
Combo spin - Both had mediocre ones.
Flying spin - Michelle certainly did a bigger and better one.
Spirals - Michelle had a difficult transition and none of Surya's spirals were held for more than a split second (deduction? Or not count at all?).
Steps - Michelle did a full serpentine and Surya's SL steps had so little content.

I liked Surya's program for her and she skated it with speed and inspiration but I don't know if it was so much better skated that it could offset all the deductions that she incurred or technical weaknesses in that program against what Michelle put out.

And in the free, she again had technical issues. The 3flip3toe was cheated 1/2 turn, 3toe euler 3sal was cheated 1/4 turn, final 3lutz (before 3 minute mark) was 2footed, and she only did 3 spins (vs 4 for everyone else). I have absolutely no idea
how this was a 4/5 split loss to Chen Lu's masterpiece with 5 big, clean triples.

 

[Fiero425]

Absolutely. I wonder if the judges ever cared about rules or deductions?!

Lutz combo - Michelle had a slow landing but Surya had hand down (deduction).
3flip - Surya had virtually NO steps into hers which should have been a 0.3 deduction.
2axel - even, but Michelle held her landing more.
Layback - Surya travelled quite visibly despite attempting a difficult variation (deduction).
Combo spin - Both had mediocre ones.
Flying spin - Michelle certainly did a bigger and better one.
Spirals - Michelle had a difficult transition and none of Surya's spirals were held for more than a split second (deduction? Or not count at all?).
Steps - Michelle did a full serpentine and Surya's SL steps had so little content.

I liked Surya's program for her and she skated it with speed and inspiration but I don't know if it was so much better skated that it could offset all the deductions that she incurred or technical weaknesses in that program against what Michelle put out.

And in the free, she again had technical issues. The 3flip3toe was cheated 1/2 turn, 3toe euler 3sal was cheated 1/4 turn, final 3lutz (before 3 minute mark) was 2footed, and she only did 3 spins (vs 4 for everyone else). I have absolutely no idea
how this was a 4/5 split loss to Chen Lu's masterpiece with 5 big, clean triples.

I don't think a little "cheat" on a landing was as observed as strictly as today due to the fans and "powers that be" wanting to see something exceptional! If the judges truly cared about the rules, Oksana Baiul would have won nothing in her career! No one cheated their landings more; esp. on the 3-Lutz that she 2-footed every single time that I can think of! As a matter of fact, the only clean "triple LUTZ" of OB's that I can remember ever occurring was at the 2000 Goodwill Games which was more a mini-proAM! They brought back skaters from the grave to skate and competed evenly from Katarina Witt and Dorothy Hamill to Surya Bonaly and Yuka Sato! They seemed to pair the skaters knowing the older skaters couldn't keep up with the younger ones! For Oksana, her obvious, nearest competitor was Nancy Kerrigan from '94 OG's! NK barely got thru her performance; typical "stick" as most US skaters train to be! Anyway, OB came out and skated beautifully and "went for it" performing the best 3-LUTZ of her career! The "reaction" shot was of Nancy with her mouth "AGAPE!" Too bad Baiul couldn't be happy with her performance, and with her huge ego decided to add a final 3-Salchow after doubling it earlier in the program! She of course was late with the music running out and with no speed she fell to boot ruining her moment! NK won their H2H and wound up 5th overall behind winner Surya Bonaly over Yuka Sato who matched up from their '94 Worlds rivalry!

 

[olympic]

How much were URs considered in the 6.0 era, though?

 

[Erin]

How much were URs considered in the 6.0 era, though?

People were certainly aware of them. The CBC commentators spent Surya’s whole program talking about them. That program is actually how I learned what an underrotation was.

 

[Fiero425]

People were certainly aware of them. The CBC commentators spent Surya’s whole program talking about them.

Well Surya was an easy target! She and her mother were "the outsider" in more ways than one! She wasn't one of their "ICE PRINCESSES!" It got ugly at times; commentators probably not realizing how offensive they were when speaking of Bonaly! I agree she skated better later on; "when she wanted to!" After her Achilles tendon tear in '96 and subsequent return to the ice in '97, she was a last minute replacement for a skater (maybe Kadavy) at the Japan Open! So few athletes return from such a devastating injury, but I hear she was back on the ice "on one skate" after just 6 weeks! I was thrilled she was back, but concerned since the judging had more to do with the artistic side than technical ability she could manage! She surprised everyone by showing she can do other things than complete triple combos! She was quite smooth and graceful as a matter of fact and almost brought tears to my eyes after her long program! Katarina Witt probably wasn't happy an injured Surya could outdo her doing "Don't Cry For Me Argentina!" It broke her face to see such low scores, but doing one triple toe wasn't going to get her out of the scoring cellar!

- - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDyIeZ-gAUA - - Short/Technical Program

- - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZA4myKJElU&t=103s - - Long/Artistic Program

 

[meggonzo]

People were certainly aware of them. The CBC commentators spent Surya’s whole program talking about them. That program is actually how I learned what an underrotation was.

I also learned what an underrotation was from a different Surya program - 1991 Worlds when she attempted a quad toe. And that was the NBC broadcast.

 

[VGThuy]

I have a feeling the judges were giving Surya some credit in the LP for having probably her best skate in years there and for having the guts to go for that content even if they weren’t fully clean. 1995 Worlds LP is my personal go-to performance for Surya from her eligible days.

 

[Fiero425]

I have a feeling the judges were giving Surya some credit in the LP for having probably her best skate in years there and for having the guts to go for that content even if they weren’t fully clean. 1995 Worlds LP is my personal go-to performance for Surya from her eligible days.

I taped every performance of that gypsy program! I know it by heart; the music and jumps! It took over from the previous season's, "Four Seasons" from Vivaldi for me! If you remember, she debut it after '94 Worlds at the yearly "Hershey's Kisses Skate" extravaganza! It was in that skate of '95 at the European CHP. she not only sqirreled a 3-Lutz/3T combo, near the end she came around doing footwork into her 2nd 3-Lutz! Few if any were doing that at the time! Now it's passe!

 

[olympic]

People were certainly aware of them. The CBC commentators spent Surya’s whole program talking about them. That program is actually how I learned what an underrotation was.

I do recall that when skaters were attempting the quad during the 6.0 era like Bonaly, it wasn't ratified due to a UR. I know Fadeyev and Sabovcik attempted quads in competition prior to Browning's successful one at '88 Worlds. I'm not sure if they weren't counted because of 2-foot landings or URs though. So, yeah I guess judges to some extent considered them but probably not as much as under the IJS