ISU has cancelled 2021 Europeans, ISU Grand Prix Final, World Junior Synchro; Stockholm Worlds still on for now

[SpeedySucks]

If Skate Canada decides not to send a team even though it is legally possible for Canadians to travel back and forth to Sweden, I hope some of the skaters decide to sue. Most of the skaters who would go are legal adults, and by not sending a team, Skate Canada would likely be denying skaters the ability to earn spots for Canada to the Olympics (assuming the ISU doesn’t develop an alternate method to earn spots). The skaters should have the right to decide for themselves whether they feel safe enough to attend.

 

[Karen-W]

If Skate Canada decides not to send a team even though it is legally possible for Canadians to travel back and forth to Sweden, I hope some of the skaters decide to sue. Most of the skaters who would go are legal adults, and by not sending a team, Skate Canada would likely be denying skaters the ability to earn spots for Canada to the Olympics (assuming the ISU doesn’t develop an alternate method to earn spots). The skaters should have the right to decide for themselves whether they feel safe enough to attend.

Well, at the minimum, wouldn't Keegan likely be able to travel to Sweden? Assuming the US doesn't institute a travel ban to Sweden (which I would find highly unlikely even with the change of administration), he can travel on his US passport, can't he?

 

[tony]

Well, at the minimum, wouldn't Keegan likely be able to travel to Sweden? Assuming the US doesn't institute a travel ban to Sweden (which I would find highly unlikely even with the change of administration), he can travel on his US passport, can't he?

Problem with that situation is there's only one mens spot, and they are in a mess with that because Sadovsky won Nationals last year, REALLY bombed 4CC (like 17th place?), Nguyen was the highest finisher and was scheduled to go to Worlds, but now this year you have Sadovsky winning the Challenge event and Keegan having won a medal at Skate America - basically still could go to anyone. If Canada does give the go-ahead, I suspect there will be a monitoring virtual one last skate-off between them, but I don't think they will just give Keegan the spot based on being in the US. And since getting a second spot may be on the line as well, I don't know how confident SC would feel with Roman being in that position.

I have zero idea what they'd do with the ladies, either. They probably need a skate-off between 5 of them.

 

[Karen-W]

Problem with that situation is there's only one mens spot, and they are in a mess with that because Sadovsky won Nationals last year, REALLY bombed 4CC (like 17th place?), Nguyen was the highest finisher and was scheduled to go to Worlds, but now this year you have Sadovsky winning the Challenge event and Keegan having won a medal at Skate America - basically still could go to anyone. If Canada does give the go-ahead, I suspect there will be a monitoring virtual one last skate-off between them, but I don't think they will just give Keegan the spot based on being in the US. And since getting a second spot may be on the line as well, I don't know how confident SC would feel with Roman being in that position.

I have zero idea what they'd do with the ladies, either. They probably need a skate-off between 5 of them.

Oh, I'd give it to Keegan. He's the most reliable of their men, at least internationally. But, yes, I expect that SC will have some monitoring and, potentially, a skate off between the three men.

 

[Vagabond]

Well, at the minimum, wouldn't Keegan likely be able to travel to Sweden? Assuming the US doesn't institute a travel ban to Sweden (which I would find highly unlikely even with the change of administration), he can travel on his US passport, can't he?

IINM, ISU regulations require Messing, as a representative of Canada, to travel to Sweden on his Canadian passport. Still, Messing trains in the United States, so this isn't really a problem. He can get back into the U.S. with his U.S. passport.

 

[sk8nlizard]

What if they use the number of entrants qualified for 2020 Worlds but the country can send whomever they want. Nothing is going to be completely fair but this seems reasonable to me. So, the US qualified 2 pairs for 2020 so they can choose any two US pairs, which means K/F can go. But if youR country didn’t qualify in 2020, you don’t get a spot. That would keep the field the same as it was supposed to be last year while avoiding tech minimums.

 

[MacMadame]

What if they use the number of entrants qualified for 2020 Worlds but the country can send whomever they want. Nothing is going to be completely fair but this seems reasonable to me. So, the US qualified 2 pairs for 2020 so they can choose any two US pairs, which means K/F can go. But if youR country didn’t qualify in 2020, you don’t get a spot. That would keep the field the same as it was supposed to be last year while avoiding tech minimums.

Oh this is a great idea!

 

[sk8nlizard]

Oh this is a great idea!

I mean it’s not completely fair, but nothing they do will be. Just seems like the easiest way for this year to me.

 

[gkelly]

What if they use the number of entrants qualified for 2020 Worlds but the country can send whomever they want. Nothing is going to be completely fair but this seems reasonable to me. So, the US qualified 2 pairs for 2020 so they can choose any two US pairs, which means K/F can go. But if youR country didn’t qualify in 2020, you don’t get a spot. That would keep the field the same as it was supposed to be last year while avoiding tech minimums.

All ISU member federations are entitled to 1 spot per discipline at Worlds IF they have a skater (or team) who has achieved the minimum score to fill that spot.

There is no "number of entrants" qualified for 2020 Worlds by country. The countries that had skaters on the entry lists were the ones who had skaters with minimum scores to fill the slots that the country is entitled to by virtue of being an ISU member.

Worlds is not like Olympics where the total number of entries is capped by number in advance.

So that doesn't really solve the problem.

You could say "All federations who had a skater on the entry list for 2020 Worlds are entitled to send that skater or a different skater, and all federations who did not have an entrant may not send anyone."

But that would mean that a federation who had exactly one skater who had the minimum scores for last year's Worlds but who has since retired or is currently injured could send their best skater this year who might be very far from being able to achieve the minimum.

Or a federation whose one strong skater was injured last year and therefore not on the entry list might be recovered now (and might even still have valid minimum scores earned before the injury). But since there was no other skater with minimums to fill that slot last year, should a strong and qualified skater be kept out this year?

Or a federation's strongest skater(s) were competing as a junior last year and are now ready (or required by age) to skate senior this year. There was no one with senior minimums to be entered in the list last year but there are skaters strong enough to earn them this year, if there were any place to do so.

For federations with few skaters who can earn the minimums easily, or with several skaters who can each earn them only on a good day, whether they have at least one in a given discipline who has valid senior minimums and is healthy enough to compete at Worlds will be quite changeable from year to year.

But the ISU rules entitle each federation to one spot at Worlds each year assuming they have someone to fill it.

It doesn't seem to make much sense to take that right away from some federations based on which federations were able to fill their entitled slots a year ago. Especially if you will allow federations who do not have a skater capable of meeting the requirements to fill a slot just because they did have a different skater capable of it last year.

 

[Lemonade20]

All ISU member federations are entitled to 1 spot per discipline at Worlds IF they have a skater (or team) who has achieved the minimum score to fill that spot.

There is no "number of entrants" qualified for 2020 Worlds by country. The countries that had skaters on the entry lists were the ones who had skaters with minimum scores to fill the slots that the country is entitled to by virtue of being an ISU member.

Worlds is not like Olympics where the total number of entries is capped by number in advance.

So that doesn't really solve the problem.

You could say "All federations who had a skater on the entry list for 2020 Worlds are entitled to send that skater or a different skater, and all federations who did not have an entrant may not send anyone."

But that would mean that a federation who had exactly one skater who had the minimum scores for last year's Worlds but who has since retired or is currently injured could send their best skater this year who might be very far from being able to achieve the minimum.

Or a federation whose one strong skater was injured last year and therefore not on the entry list might be recovered now (and might even still have valid minimum scores earned before the injury). But since there was no other skater with minimums to fill that slot last year, should a strong and qualified skater be kept out this year?

Or a federation's strongest skater(s) were competing as a junior last year and are now ready (or required by age) to skate senior this year. There was no one with senior minimums to be entered in the list last year but there are skaters strong enough to earn them this year, if there were any place to do so.

For federations with few skaters who can earn the minimums easily, or with several skaters who can each earn them only on a good day, whether they have at least one in a given discipline who has valid senior minimums and is healthy enough to compete at Worlds will be quite changeable from year to year.

But the ISU rules entitle each federation to one spot at Worlds assuming they have someone to fill it.

It doesn't seem to make much sense to take that right away from some federations based on which federations were able to fill their entitled slots a year ago. Especially if you will allow federations who do not have a skater capable of meeting the requirements to fill a slot just because they did have a different skater capable of it last year.

However they decide to select who is eligible to go, something tells me it’ll be a much smaller number of skaters willing to travel. Canada may or may not let their skaters go.

 

[tony]

What if they use the number of entrants qualified for 2020 Worlds but the country can send whomever they want. Nothing is going to be completely fair but this seems reasonable to me. So, the US qualified 2 pairs for 2020 so they can choose any two US pairs, which means K/F can go. But if youR country didn’t qualify in 2020, you don’t get a spot. That would keep the field the same as it was supposed to be last year while avoiding tech minimums.

@gkelly pointed out some of the flaws with this, especially with the deciding who is actually 'qualified'. Loena Hendrickx didn't compete at all and there aren't other ladies from Belgium, but would still have numbers from 2019 to get her in. Do you throw her in even though she wasn't on the entry list in 2020? Do you not include anyone who may have done well earlier this year and/or moved up from juniors?

I think dropping the TES down to a lower level for this one instance (maybe Euros/4CC), is fair enough. That, or maybe a better option is to just consider all scores from 2019-present, including the ones that were supposed to not be for official statistics (avoids a problem with Knierim/Frazier, Zhou). But this also creates the problem of adding a large group of potential (note potential - not matter of fact) entries and having the problem with 9 hour long short programs. I'm not as convinced as some others that the fields are going to be depleted much, if at all.

 

[Vagabond]

I'm not convinced that there will be fields.

 

[tony]

I'm not convinced that there will be fields.

Yeah, we know. I'd personally prefer to talk about what could still happen rather than thinking it won't.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

And how many do you think won't be able to attend? Remember, Canada only had one mens entry as a result of 2019 Worlds, and Australia the same (but I think Kerry is in Europe anyways).

Also, your talking point was not about that-- it was you stating you didn't think there would be countries sending skaters this year (with no TES minimum) that weren't able to go before. If you look at the competitions that have happened throughout Europe already this season, my opinion differs.

Also, you'll note the word 'potentially' in the one post you quoted, but check the other where I directly quoted you

That was not my talking point. Don’t tell me what I meant. Good lord. I said that I didn’t think opening it up this year would be particularly problematic because plenty of people would not be able to travel or would not have been able to train or would have to quarantine. Your decision to read things into my post that aren’t there is not my problem.

 

[tony]

That was not my talking point. Don’t tell me what I meant. Good lord. I said that I didn’t think opening it up this year would be particularly problematic because plenty of people would not be able to travel or would not have been able to train or would have to quarantine. Your decision to read things into my post that aren’t there is not my problem.

Is there one post lately that you can get through without it being the end of the world? Good lord.

Say whatever you want now, but these were your words:

I think it's kind of weird to expect that there will be a sudden influx of skaters from small countries who would not normally have been able to to send skaters in this particular year. I think we're much more likely to have small fields due to skaters having had almost no training, not being able to travel from their countries, not meeting testing requirements, etc.

You 'think it's kind of weird' with your always cheery disposition. And what did I do? I pointed out that it's not weird when there are quite a large number of countries with skaters that don't quite have TES levels that would almost certainly take the chance to get to a Worlds. If they've been competing throughout Europe all autumn, I don't see why they wouldn't take the opportunity with the minimums being dropped. I even provided a suggested list of countries that have sent skaters to compete this year.

You ignored that part, and then decided to quote a later post, after half-reading it, and not noticing the word potential. Speaking of telling people what they meant..

Big countries already earning spots having to potentially drop out and these smaller countries that have skaters who have competed 4 times already this year are a big difference. So no, I still don't think it's kind of weird.

 

[mjb52]

So long as Grm gets to go if she wants to. That should be a determining factor when considering technical minimums.

 

[Karen-W]

So long as Grm gets to go if she wants to. That should be a determining factor when considering technical minimums.

Because it really is all about our personal favorites (or our own country's skaters) making it to Worlds, lol. ;-)

Honestly, I'm not sure what the solution to the TES minimum is, but I'd bet the US is going to be lobbying hard for some sort of exemption or workaround for skaters who are, clearly, capable of meeting the minimums but haven't had the chance to compete internationally this year, and I'm guessing the JSF might also support the USFS in this because their #2 dance team certainly doesn't have the TES minimums either. Granted, Kana & Dai are only alternates at this point but if anything happens to K/K, then the JSF would want to send their next best team.

 

[Elka]

The "things" that are allowed in this case means "Elite Athletic Competitions". Look at @Seerek's list. That's a lot of events that are going on in Sweden. Plus, it was reported earlier in this thread that a lot of the restrictions have exceptions for elite sports.

I read it and all of them are outdoor events. Doctors in Sweden consider the outdoor sport to be safe compared with indoor events. Also hockey is discussed in Sweden because most of the c-cases in sport are in hockey. They are considering hockey to be important because this situation with cv is going to go on a long time and they have special restrictions (and they will probably be finished with the discussion some time in July and then ban hockey). And they are hockey crazy, and it is a professional sport. "Nobody" (= very few people) would care if skating was cancelled.

There are also other things regarding the boarder control which would be a concern for me if I would be planning to send skaters to these WC.
Exceptions for professional sports are about the right to enter the country. Not about how the events are organised.

 

[mjb52]

The Swedish association in charge of Worlds has said recently that they are currently planning for Worlds to go ahead.

 

[Marco]

Does Sweden have a mandatory quarantine requirement upon entry?

 

[Elka]

The Swedish association in charge of Worlds has said recently that they are currently planning for Worlds to go ahead.

Of course they are. But they expect ISU to cover the millions of losses they are going to get.

 

[misskarne]

I can't help but feel that if everyone from the big skating countries had their tech minimums already and it was only a case of smaller country skaters trying to get their minimums we would not be hearing so much screeching and carry-on about allowing scores from events that in no way meet the criteria...

 

[starrynight]

It’s statistically highly probable several people will show up positive or become positive. Will there be any plan around this? Will close contacts be removed?

 

[TAHbKA]

IINM, ISU regulations require Messing, as a representative of Canada, to travel to Sweden on his Canadian passport. Still, Messing trains in the United States, so this isn't really a problem. He can get back into the U.S. with his U.S. passport.

Do they? I mean how did Tran participate the Worlds? He never had a Japanese passport. You sure it's not Olympics and the OC rules?

 

[starrynight]

Of course they are. But they expect ISU to cover the millions of losses they are going to get.

Yeah that’s thing. It’s why I had no issue with Skate Canada not bleeding huge financial losses to hold a half baked Nationals.

The ISU has so little money for skating at the best of times without losing money on this worlds.

And if there are any protective measures put in place they will add to the cost too.

 

[starrynight]

Do they? I mean how did Tran participate the Worlds? He never had a Japanese passport. You sure it's not Olympics and the OC rules?

Isn’t this passport thing what caused Misha Ge huge issues because visas were harder to get with his Uzbekistan passport? He has other passports, but had to use that one for travel for skating comps.

 

[TAHbKA]

Isn’t this passport thing what caused Misha Ge huge issues because visas were harder to get with his Uzbekistan passport? He has other passports, but had to use that one for travel for skating comps.

Roman Serov, Ilia Tkachenko, Alison Reed never had an Israeli passport. Reed doesn't have a Lithuanian, Tobias did't have one till Olymipc, Mervin Tran already mentioned, Kawaguti took the Russian citizenship a year before the Olympics, don't remember whether Massot got the German citizenship before or after the worlds...
Does Ge have another passport? And if he does it's what? Russian? He would need a visa.to travel with the Russian passport as well.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Massot didn’t get his citizenship until sometime in Fall 2017. He had all that trouble with the language test.

Others: Tanith Belbin just barely got her citizenship in time for Torino. She and Ben medaled at worlds in 2005.

Christina Carreira represented the US at junior worlds, is an alternate to senior worlds, and does not yet have citizenship.

Lubov Ilyushechkina didn’t get Canadian citizenship until 2017. She certainly represented Canada at worlds a couple of times before that.

 

[TAHbKA]

So sounds.like the OIC rule and not ISU?

 

[Elka]

I suppose the "passport rule" is that when the country hosting the event sends out invitations to skaters who need visas e.g. somebody representing Uzbekistan in a skating competition gets an invitation accordingly. Not something he could present in inviting country's consulate in Russia with his Russian passport. Those who do not need visas can present what passport whey wish when crossing boarders.