Was Mark Mitchell robbed?

[Theatregirl1122]

Skaters and fans knew what the Olympic selection criteria was going to be in 2018. It wasn't just nationals, it was clearly communicated that it wasn't just nationals, and it's strange to me that people act like the top 3 at nationals were owed a spot as if nationals was the only selection criteria when everyone knew going into the season that Nationals was not going to be used as the sole selection criteria. Japan and Russia don't use their nationals as the sole selection criteria, either, and people don't seem to struggle with that fact.

 

[overedge]

I don't know that he was "robbed". IMO he just had really bad luck. At some big events where he had good performances, people that he usually could have beaten (and often had beaten) had better performances than usual.

 

[meggonzo]

1990 - I really don't think there should be any controversy here. Mark's subsequent interviews have indicated that he was upset he didn't get the spot over Chris Bowman and I don't know if Mark ever understood the named skater rule, which is kind of sad. I don't think he has ever said he should have finished in the top two, but that would be a stretch.

Didn't he realize that Tonya Harding wasn't named to the 89 World team because of the named skater rule? It was only one year prior!

 

[caseyedwards]

Skaters and fans knew what the Olympic selection criteria was going to be in 2018. It wasn't just nationals, it was clearly communicated that it wasn't just nationals, and it's strange to me that people act like the top 3 at nationals were owed a spot as if nationals was the only selection criteria when everyone knew going into the season that Nationals was not going to be used as the sole selection criteria. Japan and Russia don't use their nationals as the sole selection criteria, either, and people don't seem to struggle with that fact.

Yes people do struggle with it with regard to Russia and Japan! I just read anger over Nakano losing out to a lackluster or bad ando twice! And of course the “Kovtun was robbed! Russia shouldn’t have sent plushenko” crowd! That’s a real crowd! The issue is the rules are waived whenever they feel like waiving them! Rippon is not kwan he wasn’t wagner he wasn’t eldredge. He was not anybody of high value or merit

 

[Erin]

Didn't he realize that Tonya Harding wasn't named to the 89 World team because of the named skater rule? It was only one year prior!

Paul Wylie also didn’t get to go in 89 because of that rule. I seriously think Mark just lived in his own bubble. That said, the TV commentators also never mentioned named skater in 1990 when talking about Bowman getting to go.

 

[SpeedySucks]

I think Mark’s best argument was in 1992. In hindsight, the decision to send Paul over Mark seems justified because Paul won the silver in Albertville. Based on Paul’s history, though, he was most likely to go to the Olympics and finish 9th or 10th, which is probably where Mark would have placed had he skated well. Not only did Mark lose out to Paul on a 5-4 split, but he also wasn’t subbed in for Todd when Todd (allegedly) didn’t look good when being monitored by USFSA prior to the Olympics. So you could argue that Mark was robbed twice that year and really should have been in Albertville one way or another.

 

[MacMadame]

I think Mark’s best argument was in 1992. In hindsight, the decision to send Paul over Mark seems justified because Paul won the silver in Albertville. Based on Paul’s history, though, he was most likely to go to the Olympics and finish 9th or 10th, which is probably where Mark would have placed had he skated well. Not only did Mark lose out to Paul on a 5-4 split, but he also wasn’t subbed in for Todd when Todd (allegedly) didn’t look good when being monitored by USFSA prior to the Olympics. So you could argue that Mark was robbed twice that year and really should have been in Albertville one way or another.

I agree with this. OTOH, I wouldn't have missed Paul winning silver for anything so that's why I didn't vote for it.

 

[Aerobicidal]

Yes people do struggle with it with regard to Russia and Japan! I just read anger over Nakano losing out to a lackluster or bad ando twice! And of course the “Kovtun was robbed! Russia shouldn’t have sent plushenko” crowd! That’s a real crowd! The issue is the rules are waived whenever they feel like waiving them! Rippon is not kwan he wasn’t wagner he wasn’t eldredge. He was not anybody of high value or merit

Oh he texted! Too bad did so horribly and is a grotesque theif

 

[tony]

Skaters and fans knew what the Olympic selection criteria was going to be in 2018. It wasn't just nationals, it was clearly communicated that it wasn't just nationals, and it's strange to me that people act like the top 3 at nationals were owed a spot as if nationals was the only selection criteria when everyone knew going into the season that Nationals was not going to be used as the sole selection criteria. Japan and Russia don't use their nationals as the sole selection criteria, either, and people don't seem to struggle with that fact.

To be fair, I remember the discussions here after news broke that Miner was off the team where people were pointing out that the USFS/Sam Auxier had mentioned 'medal contenders' as part of the BOW, and no one thought Rippon was going to be in medal contention. I think everyone knew it was realistic to want a top 10 finish for him in an event where final placement has no further repercussions as far as country allotment.

I do think there is often a bunch of 'we have rules in place to ultimately choose the exact skaters that we want regardless of placement'. We've gone over these threads before but look at what Skate Canada did to Amelie Lacoste in 2012- they repeatedly made her show that she should be sent to Worlds over Phaneuf and she just barely pulled it off at 4CC, but SC was certainly more than ready to dump her. And it follows through to skating fandom as well: if the skater is generally well-liked, fans are all for the boost (see Takahashi in 2014, as an example, even though Kozuka was also well-liked, just not on that level). On the other hand, fans were even furious that Wagner got the nod over Nagasu in 2014 and Wagner had the better track record for US skating than Rippon. Miner has casey and about three other fans total here.

 

[VGThuy]

I think people will always struggle when the Nationals results during an Olympic year go awry. We are sort of conditioned to love the idea of upset victories and thinking they deserve the spoils of such victory. But then we also are hardcore skating fans and start having favorites and following journeys. A skater will more likely have a following if they build up a real BOW. So we have two competing ideas...someone deservedly placing higher than a more popular skater shouldn't lose out because they earned their victory v. a skater whose done a lot of work doing consistently well and possibly carrying the burden of the country's skating program and then being passed over by some upstart or some skater who decides to wake up after possibly seasons of blah results or underachievement.

People won't be consistent with it because it all depends on the skaters and who the fans like. There is also the fact that not all BOWs are equal. I also think it depends on the discipline and how much the USFS really invests in it. I think they would have taken any pairs results had there been two spots for the second spot, but they would have done a lot more debating for Men/Ladies. I also think the team event makes the BOW criteria even more necessary because it's not just about individual results anymore. I think that was what REALLY helped Adam. Having Nathan have all the pressure would be no-go and we saw how he did in the team event anyway. If the pressure to be back up mens skater needing to place well would be put on Miner or Zhou, that would have been risky even if at worst they would have only lost two points that Rippon gained with his team event LP placement (arguably should have been three points).

 

[meggonzo]

Miner has casey and about three other fans total here.

Ouch. Way harsh, tony.

 

[tony]

Ouch. Way harsh, tony.

I don’t think so. When Miner won a medal at a fairly stacked NHK, Phil Hersh literally wrote ‘so what?’ in regards to that accomplishment. People were questioning if Ross would even qualify out of the short program at the Olympics. Not many seemed to be all that upset that he was off the team, but maybe more-so that Rippon, who a lot of people didn’t care for at the time as he was just finding his new personality, was on it.

 

[VGThuy]

I also thought it was telling that the night of the Olympic LP before the Mens team was announced, a bunch of skaters, many of whom were currently competing at those Nationals, were politicking for Vincent Zhou on social media arguing despite his > that he deserved his spot because of the incredible technical feat he accomplished. Carrots or not, getting close to four rotations as many times as he did in one program really is an impressive technical feat. I think they were afraid he'd be passed over. That's why I think it's funny when the USFS gets accused of propping him up because if the USFS callers had their way, he wouldn't have made the team. He got much more benefit of the doubt internationally at the Olympics and ended up being a World bronze medalist in 2019.

 

[Erin]

I don’t think so. When Miner won a medal at a fairly stacked NHK, Phil Hersh literally wrote ‘so what?’ in regards to that accomplishment. People were questioning if Ross would even qualify out of the short program at the Olympics. Not many seemed to be all that upset that he was off the team, but maybe more-so that Rippon, who a lot of people didn’t care for at the time as he was just finding his new personality, was on it.

The original thread about Ross being off the team was 43 pages long and I have been reading it off and on over the past few days. There were plenty of people other than caseyedwards who were pretty upset. Mostly in irrational ways.

 

[tony]

The original thread about Ross being off the team was 43 pages long and I have been reading it off and on over the past few days. There were plenty of people other than caseyedwards who were pretty upset. Mostly in irrational ways.

I remember it— I started the thread. But it wasn’t many people upset for Ross specifically. It turned into a lot of complaining, especially when the alternates and selections were chosen for the other internationals.

 

[her grace]

I think Miner wuz robbed of worlds more than he wuz robbed of the Olympics. I’m really not a fan of deviating from nationals results and giving the slighted party neither of the premium assignments. Olympic year 4CC hardly counts as a consolation prize.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

On the other hand, fans were even furious that Wagner got the nod over Nagasu in 2014 and Wagner had the better track record for US skating than Rippon. Miner has casey and about three other fans total here.

I found that even more bizarre. It was clear that Ashley was safe going into those Nationals, no matter who the fans loved. It was an absolute shame that it was Mirai who she ended up bumping, but by all the rules that USFSA set out, THAT choice was a no brainer, and it drove me nuts the way it was presented in non-skating media.

USFSA has decided not to go on only nationals results any more. A lot of sports and a lot of federations do this. Nationals are only one competition. People basically seem to be struggling because USFSA said for years that it wasn't the Olympic/worlds qualifier but absolutely used it as the Olympic/worlds qualifier and now they've changed and people seem to refuse to adapt to the change. If everyone went into nationals with the understanding that the National Championships are used to determine the National Champion and are a PART of world team selection, these conversations would make more sense.

 

[BittyBug]

It turned into a lot of complaining...

On FSU?

@Erin, I need to compliment you on what is IMO one of the finest Trash Can threads ever. The time warp, the detail, the politiks - it's amazing. And I'd like to note that we can now Mark Mitchell of even winning his own thread, since the convo seems to have turned to Ross Miner.
Perhaps no one was ever more fleeced than MM.

 

[Coco]

I found that even more bizarre. It was clear that Ashley was safe going into those Nationals, no matter who the fans loved. It was an absolute shame that it was Mirai who she ended up bumping, but by all the rules that USFSA set out, THAT choice was a no brainer, and it drove me nuts the way it was presented in non-skating media.

Agreed that Ashley was already on the team before Nationals. The real controversy at 2014 Nationals was Polina's calls and PCS.

 

[Plusdinfo]

Mark Mitchell was indeed robbed. He parked his car in Los Angeles in 2018 and later returned to find none of his belongings left, not even a discarded wrapper straw.

I mean...

Mark had some harsh luck and was excruciatingly close to more selections, nicer medals, and grander achievements. It has to have been hard to undergo what he has. Thinking back a bit, I can't recall him being in many pro events in the mid-'90s. Can you? It would have been nice to see his artistic programs without amateur pressures.

Since it is part of Mark's career (this time as a coach), I will chime in about Ross Miner in 2018. I was in the arena for the event (men's free and the day after, plus some events before), and I have plenty I could share, but I will try to be brief. First, the USFSA almost never went against national results for Olympic selections. There were what, two instances due to injuries (1992 and 1994) and one instance in 2014 due to body of work? There was not much reason for me (or some others who talked to me) to think that a second-place finisher would not be selected when three spots were available. Second, Ross Miner was not bringing home world medals, but he was not a nobody. He wasn't an untested rookie, he wasn't someone who somehow milked the system but didn't have athletic or artistic qualities; he was a good skater. Third, there is the issue of pressure. When someone (Ross) is spectacular in a big moment and someone (Adam) is not even that good in a pressure cooker, it's hard to see why the latter should move on to a bigger stage instead of the former. I have liked many of both Ross and Adam's programs, and I was not really willing either one onto or off of the Olympic team, but I do remember thinking it through and being a bit surprised and certainly disappointed that Ross' second-place finish didn't get him onto a team of three. For Mark, who experienced many nationals of selections being almost always cut and dry, it must have been hurtful.

 

[VGThuy]

@Coco co I think you're right. It really close score-wise between Mirai, Polina, and Ashley in both phases of the competition at Nats. Polina did get a small PCS boost and a small to big (compared to Worlds SP) GOE boost compared to her Nationals scores which made all of the difference. One thing noticeable is that although Wagner got a comparable PCS at Nationals SP that she did at Worlds despite doubling her 3/3 at Nationals, it was about a point behind what she got at the Olympics. Her LP at Nationals saw like a 5.4 point drop at Nationals than what she got at the Olympics and like a 4 point drop from what she got at Worlds later on. And those performances had carrots and stuff. I don't remember her Nationals skates being THAT off to warrant such a PCS drop.

I don't think Polina embarrassed herself or anything though. She did place 7th in the SP right behind Wagner and did what she could for a top ten finish in a stacked ladies field in the LP. Then at Worlds, she did score higher in the LP than she did at Nationals, and had her 3Lutz/3Toe ratified (though she also had her 3/1/3 called under on the second triple). I guess it's hard to know if she was the wrong choice at the time since we can't compare her scores to what Mirai would have gotten in Sochi.

Mark Mitchell was indeed robbed. He parked his car in Los Angeles in 2018 and later returned to find none of his belongings left, not even a discarded wrapper straw.

I mean...

Mark had some harsh luck and was excruciatingly close to more selections, nicer medals, and grander achievements. It has to have been hard to undergo what he has. Thinking back a bit, I can't recall him being in many pro events in the mid-'90s. Can you? It would have been nice to see his artistic programs without amateur pressures.

Since it is part of Mark's career (this time as a coach), I will chime in about Ross Miner in 2018. I was in the arena for the event (men's free and the day after, plus some events before), and I have plenty I could share, but I will try to be brief. First, the USFSA almost never went against national results for Olympic selections. There were what, two instances due to injuries (1992 and 1994) and one instance in 2014 due to body of work? There was not much reason for me (or some others who talked to me) to think that a second-place finisher would not be selected when three spots were available. Second, Ross Miner was not bringing home world medals, but he was not a nobody. He wasn't an untested rookie, he wasn't someone who somehow milked the system but didn't have athletic or artistic qualities; he was a good skater. Third, there is the issue of pressure. When someone (Ross) is spectacular in a big moment and someone (Adam) is not even that good in a pressure cooker, it's hard to see why the latter should move on to a bigger stage instead of the former. I have liked many of both Ross and Adam's programs, and I was not really willing either one onto or off of the Olympic team, but I do remember thinking it through and being a bit surprised and certainly disappointed that Ross' second-place finish didn't get him onto a team of three. For Mark, who experienced many nationals of selections being almost always cut and dry, it must have been hurtful.

I can totally understand that point. Like replacing a SECOND PLACE finisher at Nationals isn't common at all, even if BOW was reiterated time and time again. It's not as if Miner being left off was a "Wrong" decision, but it wasn't yet that common or normalized yet so he had to be the first one to make us think, ok this sort of thing can happen. That Nationals seemed to have some discrepancy between the callers and the judges...maybe it was always there, but it seemed much more obvious in 2018 with Zhou and Karen Chen v. who they edged out for the Olympic spot (Miner/Brown and Wagner).

I will say I think had Brown skated up to snuff, that whole mens selection criteria would have been easier. Brown would most likely have placed second thus putting Miner third to Zhou's fourth and Rippon fifth. I can see Rippon still making the team and Zhou being bumped off easier since he was 4th. Miner losing out to someone who placed two places below would have hurt, but he wouldn't have been so alone since Zhou would be right there with him.

 

[Aerobicidal]

The original thread about Ross being off the team was 43 pages long and I have been reading it off and on over the past few days. There were plenty of people other than caseyedwards who were pretty upset. Mostly in irrational ways.

There are so many ridiculous and hilarious posts in that thread, but I think my favorites are the ones about how Adam Rippon will suffer for the rest of his life having to justify to the media how he stole the spot from Ross.

Adam has been in the media quite a bit since 2018 Nationals, and somehow I don't recall even hearing the narrative about Ross being robbed anywhere aside from FSU. And by "anywhere," that includes media coverage of the 2018 Olympics. Pretty sure every four year fans watching weren't told Adam was the "bomb flopper quadless journeyman outrageous Ross robber."

Actually, after writing that, I changed my mind and decided my favorite posts in the original Ross thread were the ones about how there was literally no way anyone could understand how the USFS used subjective criteria to give Adam the spot. When it was an 11-1 decision. And when five or six of us were watching the event live and all assumed Adam would get the spot, even though we agreed it was a problematic situation.

But I guess it's good that USFS listened to FSU and has decided to announce the 2022 Olympic team before 2022 Nationals and has given a Tonya-style ban to the eleven members who voted for Adam.

 

[bardtoob]

In the moment, I thought Ross should have gone to the Olympics because I was frustrated that Adam apparently forgot the middle of his long program while skating it at Nationals. Now, I don't really care, but I do think it matters who is in bed with the selection committee.

 

[gkelly]

First, the USFSA almost never went against national results for Olympic selections. There were what, two instances due to injuries (1992 and 1994) and one instance in 2014 due to body of work?

Also Meno & Sand in 1998. And Kwan in 2006 although she ended up withdrawing in time for the substitute to skate after all.

However, the rules for Olympic selections had been written to allow for International Committee discretion to consider criteria other than Nationals results before they made that officially the case for assigning skaters to Worlds -- for legal reasons to avoid Nationals being considered an official Olympic qualifier. I don't remember exactly when that changed, but at least a decade before 2018.

 

[Erin]

There were what, two instances due to injuries (1992 and 1994) and one instance in 2014 due to body of work? There was not much reason for me (or some others who talked to me) to think that a second-place finisher would not be selected when three spots were available.

Also Meno & Sand in 1998. And Kwan in 2006 although she ended up withdrawing in time for the substitute to skate after all.

As also discussed in the first post of this thread, Kimmie Meissner being selected over Katrina Hacker in 2008. I think most of us assumed at the time that Hacker didn't want to go to Worlds, but Mark Mitchell said in 2018 that it was the selection committee and not Hacker who made that decision. So Mark of all people should have known that Nationals results were not always followed. Another situation where Nationals results were not followed happened only the year before, in 2017, when Jason Brown was selected for Worlds over Vincent Zhou. Now, Zhou didn't have the World minimums at the time of nationals, but he was named as the first alternate and was sent to Bavarian Open to get the World minimums. Given that, I think it's pretty clear that Brown was selected because of Body of Work, not just because Zhou didn't have the minimums, or else Zhou would not have been named an alternate. USFS also deviated from nationals results for 4CC assignments in pairs in 2017 and in selecting alternates for the World team for pairs. And there was also the Ricky Dornbush 4CC alternate situation in 2012.

Personally, I think it's been perfectly clear to me since at least 2014 that USFS would not always follow nationals results in naming teams. I watched the 2018 men's event with a group of FSUers and we all assumed Adam would be named to the Olympic team. Initially, we thought Vincent might be the one out of luck, but then someone pointed out it would probably be Ross and then we all nodded and realized that was the likely scenario. We enjoyed Ross's skate and felt bad that he wouldn't go to the Olympics, but when the news came in, we were not surprised.

 

[gkelly]

Yes, there were plenty more examples regarding World team assignments. The post I was replying to specified Olympic examples.

But given the fact that there have only been 8 Olympics held in the past 3 decades, and we can come up with 4 examples where injured skaters were named to the Olympic team ahead of national silver or bronze medalists, plus 2 examples (including Rippon) of 4th-place finishers being named on the strength of Body of Work -- plus the 2nd and 3rd-placed dance teams from 2002 not being eligible for citizenship reasons -- that leaves only 2010 out of the last 30 years when Olympic assignments strictly followed Nationals results.

 

[Vagabond]

However, the rules for Olympic selections had been written to allow for International Committee discretion to consider criteria other than Nationals results before they made that officially the case for assigning skaters to Worlds -- for legal reasons to avoid Nationals being considered an official Olympic qualifier. I don't remember exactly when that changed, but at least a decade before 2018.

It was after the 1994 Winter Olympic Games. The rule was changde so that if, for example, the national champion happened to be mixed up a konspiracy to assault a rival with a club, she wouldn't be automatically entitled to go to the Games.s and have problems lacing up her boots.

 

[A.H.Black]

To me, Paul Wylie had the best choreography by far, especially in 1992, where the program was really well-placed to the music. What I also really appreciated about his skating was the tension and precision in his movements, which no one else really had. When Paul placed an arm or a leg in a position, he didn't just let it go wherever, he really pushed it to the exact positions. Mark had nice lines, but he didn't have that sharpness that Paul had. Paul was really not into combinations though.

I completely agree. I was also present at all the Nationals from 1990 through the years spoken of . I confess to having a very soft spot for Paul Wiley. I also enjoyed watching Mark but never thought his choreography or his artistic impression ever matched Paul's. I also agree with Erin's earlier statement that Mark's jumps never had the amplitude of most of the other top ranked men.

In 1992, we watched a practice where Todd Eldredge stood at the boards having a very animated discussion with his coach - which lasted almost the whole practice time. It was clear Todd was not skating well. It was also clear that he wanted to remain in the competition. It was very soon after that practice that Todd withdrew. I have a lot of other memories about 1992 Nationals but they are more about Paul than Mark.

 

[caseyedwards]

There are so many ridiculous and hilarious posts in that thread, but I think my favorites are the ones about how Adam Rippon will suffer for the rest of his life having to justify to the media how he stole the spot from Ross.

Adam has been in the media quite a bit since 2018 Nationals, and somehow I don't recall even hearing the narrative about Ross being robbed anywhere aside from FSU. And by "anywhere," that includes media coverage of the 2018 Olympics. Pretty sure every four year fans watching weren't told Adam was the "bomb flopper quadless journeyman outrageous Ross robber."

Actually, after writing that, I changed my mind and decided my favorite posts in the original Ross thread were the ones about how there was literally no way anyone could understand how the USFS used subjective criteria to give Adam the spot. When it was an 11-1 decision. And when five or six of us were watching the event live and all assumed Adam would get the spot, even though we agreed it was a problematic situation.

But I guess it's good that USFS listened to FSU and has decided to announce the 2022 Olympic team before 2022 Nationals and has given a Tonya-style ban to the eleven members who voted for Adam.

Who cares?

 

[Aerobicidal]

As also discussed in the first post of this thread, Kimmie Meissner being selected over Katrina Hacker in 2008. I think most of us assumed at the time that Hacker didn't want to go to Worlds, but Mark Mitchell said in 2018 that it was the selection committee and not Hacker who made that decision. So Mark of all people should have known that Nationals results were not always followed. Another situation where Nationals results were not followed happened only the year before, in 2017, when Jason Brown was selected for Worlds over Vincent Zhou. Now, Zhou didn't have the World minimums at the time of nationals, but he was named as the first alternate and was sent to Bavarian Open to get the World minimums. Given that, I think it's pretty clear that Brown was selected because of Body of Work, not just because Zhou didn't have the minimums, or else Zhou would not have been named an alternate. USFS also deviated from nationals results for 4CC assignments in pairs in 2017 and in selecting alternates for the World team for pairs. And there was also the Ricky Dornbush 4CC alternate situation in 2012.

Personally, I think it's been perfectly clear to me since at least 2014 that USFS would not always follow nationals results in naming teams. I watched the 2018 men's event with a group of FSUers and we all assumed Adam would be named to the Olympic team. Initially, we thought Vincent might be the one out of luck, but then someone pointed out it would probably be Ross and then we all nodded and realized that was the likely scenario. We enjoyed Ross's skate and felt bad that he wouldn't go to the Olympics, but when the news came in, we were not surprised.

That does NOT speak for me.