Theoretical music discussion

gkelly

gkelly

Well-Known Member
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Since this discussion really isn't about Alysa Liu specifically, maybe we can move it out of her thread.

How much does the provenance of music written for or famously used in operas, ballets, movies, musicals, etc., carry meaning that remains implicit in a skating program regardless of what the skater and choreographer choose to do with it?

Ditto for songs with lyrics. Is the content of the lyrics necessarily what the program is "about"? What if the skater uses an instrumental orchestration, or the lyrics are in a language the skater doesn't understand?

Are skaters who use choreographic and thematic choices faithful to the original provenance of the music more correct than those who use the music abstractly for its rhythmic and melodic values alone or who make up their own stories?

What about older pieces of music that were popularized by their later use in the soundtrack of a movie?

How much of meanings that audiences bring to understanding what a program is about rely on cultural knowledge or associations that may differ significantly between different nationalities, age cohorts, etc.?
 
For songs without lyrics, I think the skater has a choice to be faithful to the source material or to not and both are completely valid. For songs with lyrics, it's harder to ignore the original meaning of the music.

jennysk8oboe said:
All good questions. As a professional musician I don’t like what allowing lyrics has done to competitive programs. Am sick of GFB’s! If the music can’t stand on its own merits, I don’t think it should be used.
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Allowing lyrics results in a wider range of music. There are amazing pieces of music where there is no version without lyrics.
 
I don't believe it is necessary for judges or viewers to be fully aware of the back story of every piece of music skated or to fully understand the intention of the musical interpretation of every skater for them to appreciate or enjoy the skating. Nor do I think this is how skaters should be judged on IN and CH. As long as the skater presents the program in a way that is coherent with the mood, tempo and style of the music, I am happy.
 
Lyrics can make things a bit icky. I understand that a lot (most) skaters are not native English speakers, but I wish they would at least google translate the lyrics. A few times last year a young girl would perkily skate to a song like "Back to Black", which has both explicit sex and drug use mentioned in the lyrics. The word "dick" is usually bleeped out but not the line about loving blow. I don't feel it's me being prudish, but songs like that don't come across as athletically serious, I guess??? I like Amy Winehouse well enough, but she certainly had her demons and I don't associate her with trying to win a competition.

For example, I know T/M's Candyman was universally panned (as it should have). But most of the gripes were about the music cuts and the lack of performance. I didn't care as much about the sexy lyrics because the people using it were in their 20s. If they want to half-heartedly dance around to panty dropping lyrics, I don't care. But very young teenagers using a song about making you feel good, etc (from a junior pair at Russian Cup for example), then it's squicky. There's also the universally popular Big Spender among novice/junior girls and I just shake my head at that one.

If it's an instrumental Big Spender? I don't think I care as much about that. You would only know about the background if you were familiar with the piece it came from. OTOH, if you use the full lyrics, if you can understand English, the meaning is pretty obvious whether you know it came from a musical or not.
 
wickedwitch said:
Allowing lyrics results in a wider range of music.
Click to expand...

In theory, yes. But IMHO the major effect of allowing lyrics in skating is that we now get to hear the words of "Music of the Night" 10,000 times, rather than just hearing the instrumental version 10,000 times :scream:
 
My first problem is generally just whatever the music is. Lyrics or no lyrics, so many songs come on that I just can't stand. Everyone has their taste, to me there's too much bad taste across the board. My next problem is that everyone is using the same music over and over again, and it's music I just don't care about. I appreciate classical music as much as the next skating and ballet fan but there's no modern audience for skating partly because there's almost no modern music. To me the short program should have a modern or novel requirement. Hate me for it but I want to see new cool stuff. I want more creativity from choreographers because I lost my faith in the ability of most skaters to tell the story of an entire 2 hour opera or ballet by themselves in a few minutes. I don't blame them, its just an unrealistic failed expectation from the sport. Let skaters skate to relatable music! Why we keep asking little kids to portray prostitutes is completely beyond me.
 
Natanielle825 said:
I want more creativity from choreographers because I lost my faith in the ability of most skaters to tell the story of an entire 2 hour opera or ballet by themselves in a few minutes. I don't blame them, its just an unrealistic failed expectation from the sport.
Click to expand...

But whoever said the sport expected skaters to tell the story of a 2-hour opera or ballet (or musical or movie) by themselves.

Until maybe ~30 years ago, the expectation was that skaters would use (instrumental) music primarily for its rhythms and would usually choose several contrasting selections that might not have anything to do with each other in terms of theme or provenance. Using overtures or other medleys of tunes from the same source was more an exception than the rule, as was using separate pieces with some other connection such as national character. It was even more unusual for skaters to make any effort to "tell a story."

By the 1990s theme programs, or at least unified musical selections, became more common. And sometimes that meant portraying a character from the source material or choosing selections in a sequence that gave the program a musical emotional journey that paralleled the emotional journey of the original work.

Or, sometimes, both. Katarina Witt's Carmen was one of the first to attempt such an approach. I don't think there has ever been an expectation on the part of "the sport" that all skaters should take that approach.

There is more of an expectation recently that each program should be a coherent whole in some way. But telling the story of a prior narrative that provided the music for the program is only one possible way to unify a program that uses music all from the same source. And music from multiple sources, unified by a storyline made up for that program, is just as valid.

Medleys of songs all by the same artist, especially now that vocal music is allowed, is another way of unifying the music of a program. But in those cases the songs don't typically have any narrative relationship to each other beyond what the skater/choreographer construct by the way they put them together. Nor do the skaters necessarily act out the lyrics of the individual songs.

Let skaters skate to relatable music!
Click to expand...

Since you like "modern" music, would you be happy with skaters choosing rap music that they relate to rhythmically while ignoring any sexual or violent content in the lyrics? Would it be better or worse if they used songs with such lyrics and did try to interpret the words?

Why we keep asking little kids to portray prostitutes is completely beyond me.
Click to expand...

Do you follow much skating by "little kids" (preteens and younger)? Or are you using that term to refer to teenagers?

For better or worse, many operas and other dramatic narratives throughout western culture that feature female characters sexualize those characters. If female skaters are looking for female characters to portray, they're much more likely than male skaters to end up with various sorts of dramatic love stories, since that's the majority of what is available in genres that produce powerful music.

And many teen girls enjoy reading/watching dramatic love stories and may enjoy the music associated with them. That is something many girls relate to deeply at that age.

In many cases, the female leads could be considered to engage in prostitution in either a strict or a more general sense. This is probably often a result of the male writers'/composers' fascination with such characters.

So if a teen girl is looking for dramatic emotional music she relates to (e.g., emotional themes of yearning, doomed love, etc.), especially if she relates to classical musical genres, those kinds of characters are often easier to find music for than other kinds of female characters.

She may be more interested in the emotional quality of the music than in the specifics of the story.
 
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Shall we use this thread to provide some examples of programs in which skaters use music originally/popularly associated with a specific story to tell other kinds of stories, or use it purely as abstract music with no reference to any story?

Or music that was more abstract in initial conception used to tell an original story in a skating program?
 
gkelly said:
...
Until maybe ~30 years ago, the expectation was that skaters would use (instrumental) music primarily for its rhythms and would usually choose several contrasting selections....
Click to expand...

Way before 30 years ago - almost 50 years ago - a top US pairs team, the Militanos, did a short program to the horror film Psycho. It was considered controversial in genteel USFSA circles but the public loved it. No murdering moves but some sharp footwork to the jarring stabbing music.
 
gkelly said:
music that was more abstract in initial conception used to tell an original story in a skating program?
Click to expand...

The first example of this that leaps to mind for me is Laurine Lecavelier's 'Experience' program, where she took advantage of the music's abstract nature and driving quality to bring her own meaning to it by incorporating LSF into her choreography. It wasn't necessarily a story as such, but she had a clear structure and purpose in mind that were complemented by but not inspired by or intrinsic to the music.
 
I did not think Viacheslav Zagorudniak (sorry if I misspelled) had the slightest idea what the song "My Lieber Herr" by Liza Minnelli (Cabaret soundtrack) was about! It is also kind of creepy to see it skated by very young girls. In the 90's little girls loved skating to Madonna and some of her music (e.g. Hanky Panky) was not suitable for them but they used it.
"
 
gkelly said:
Shall we use this thread to provide some examples of programs in which skaters use music originally/popularly associated with a specific story to tell other kinds of stories, or use it purely as abstract music with no reference to any story?
Click to expand...

coughGreasedLightningcough
 
gkelly said:
But whoever said the sport expected skaters to tell the story of a 2-hour opera or ballet (or musical or movie) by themselves.

Until maybe ~30 years ago, the expectation was that skaters would use (instrumental) music primarily for its rhythms and would usually choose several contrasting selections that might not have anything to do with each other in terms of theme or provenance. Using overtures or other medleys of tunes from the same source was more an exception than the rule, as was using separate pieces with some other connection such as national character. It was even more unusual for skaters to make any effort to "tell a story."

By the 1990s theme programs, or at least unified musical selections, became more common. And sometimes that meant portraying a character from the source material or choosing selections in a sequence that gave the program a musical emotional journey that paralleled the emotional journey of the original work.

Or, sometimes, both. Katarina Witt's Carmen was one of the first to attempt such an approach. I don't think there has ever been an expectation on the part of "the sport" that all skaters should take that approach.

There is more of an expectation recently that each program should be a coherent whole in some way. But telling the story of a prior narrative that provided the music for the program is only one possible way to unify a program that uses music all from the same source. And music from multiple sources, unified by a storyline made up for that program, is just as valid.

Medleys of songs all by the same artist, especially now that vocal music is allowed, is another way of unifying the music of a program. But in those cases the songs don't typically have any narrative relationship to each other beyond what the skater/choreographer construct by the way they put them together. Nor do the skaters necessarily act out the lyrics of the individual songs.



Since you like "modern" music, would you be happy with skaters choosing rap music that they relate to rhythmically while ignoring any sexual or violent content in the lyrics? Would it be better or worse if they used songs with such lyrics and did try to interpret the words?



Do you follow much skating by "little kids" (preteens and younger)? Or are you using that term to refer to teenagers?

For better or worse, many operas and other dramatic narratives throughout western culture that feature female characters sexualize those characters. If female skaters are looking for female characters to portray, they're much more likely than male skaters to end up with various sorts of dramatic love stories, since that's the majority of what is available in genres that produce powerful music.

And many teen girls enjoy reading/watching dramatic love stories and may enjoy the music associated with them. That is something many girls relate to deeply at that age.

In many cases, the female leads could be considered to engage in prostitution in either a strict or a more general sense. This is probably often a result of the male writers'/composers' fascination with such characters.

So if a teen girl is looking for dramatic emotional music she relates to (e.g., emotional themes of yearning, doomed love, etc.), especially if she relates to classical musical genres, those kinds of characters are often easier to find music for than other kinds of female characters.

She may be more interested in the emotional quality of the music than in the specifics of the story.
Click to expand...
You're coming at me pretty hard so if I said something that offended you I'm sorry. I am speaking from my own experience as a woman who skated as a girl and has a very difficult time watching younger girls in the sport. The culture hypersexualizes them and there are real life consequences. You said for better or worse and I strongly believe it's for the worse.
 
From a point of view about how figure skating uses music, I think there are a lot more options than acting out the source material and I'd like to discuss the various possibilities theoretically, with examples.

In terms of female skaters, including younger girls, using music that sexualizes women or that is associated with narratives that sexualize women, unfortunately so much of western culture, both classical and pop culture, treats women that way that much of the available music will have those associations. The question is how each skater uses it.

Can we come up with examples of positive other options for female skaters? And examples of skaters using music from sources associated with sexual narratives without relying on those associations?
 
gkelly said:
And examples of skaters using music from sources associated with sexual narratives without relying on those associations?
Click to expand...
I don't think I've seen a skater's program to the Bacchanale from Samson et Dalila where they represent priests in an orgy-like frenzy before a human sacrifice.

I think there are few skaters who can retain rhythmic integrity or full-bodied movement throughout a program to express whatever music they choose, whether their purpose is to represent context, with or without lyrics, which aren't always literal, or to treat music abstractly. I think many programs have periodic indications of some kind of intent. Unfortunately, IMO, what is most easily indicated during periods of gliding is vamping/attempts at sass.
 
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I don't expect, or want, literal interpretation (though I enjoy it when it is well done). I prefer when a skater internalizes musical rhythms and melodies to create their own tapestry to it. It is more important to embody the flow of the music, and most achieve it only sporadically.
With lyrics it is trickier. Candyman did not bother me, but "Big Spender" for an underage girl did. Depends a lot on how concrete the lyrics are, how closely tied to a particular scenario.
I am not against the lyrics. Anything works if it was thought out.
 
How to kill the sport of figure skating,in four easy steps:
  • the abolishment of school figures;
  • corrupt judging culminating in scandals at the 1998 and 2002 Olympics;
  • ending 6.0 and introduction of a scoring system requiring competency in algebraic expressions; and
  • allowing vocal music and dreadful pop music in competition.
FIN.

-BB
 
gkelly said:
And examples of skaters using music from sources associated with sexual narratives without relying on those associations?
Click to expand...

Basically every program ever skated to the Meditation from Thais. It's the moment in the narrative where the courtesan Thais makes the decision to convert from paganism to Christianity and become a nun, but I can't remember a program that treats it as anything other than a pretty piece of music to skate prettily to.

Can we come up with examples of positive other options for female skaters?
Click to expand...

There's the Hunger Games movie soundtrack/s - I remember Hamon/Strekalin skating to Hunger Games as juniors a couple of seasons ago and what an enormous relief it was to see a teenage girl wearing a non-slinky catsuit. We've just had a slew of Game of Thrones programs that worked well enough, and using Arya music would expand its range even more for younger skaters. Micaela's music from Carmen is a combination of warhorse and 'good girl' character. Ballet gives you characters like Giselle, Odette and Lise. Film soundtracks in general are a good place to look: Rachel Portman, for instance, has written lots of good movie scores associated with positive, proactive and non-sexualised female characters, like Their Finest and Belle. There are plenty of great TV series with strong female characters and good OSTs, from slice-of-life shows like Call the Midwife to SF dramas like Battlestar Galactica, The Expanse and Doctor Who. And that's just off the top of my head!
 
Brenda_Bottems said:
How to kill the sport of figure skating,in four easy steps:
  • the abolishment of school figures;
  • corrupt judging culminating in scandals at the 1998 and 2002 Olympics;
  • ending 6.0 and introduction of a scoring system requiring competency in algebraic expressions; and
  • allowing vocal music and dreadful pop music in competition.
FIN.

-BB
Click to expand...

I have one more factor, related to your last one:

• in Ice Dance, have a Rhythm Dance to rap
 
Brenda_Bottems said:
  • ending 6.0 and introduction of a scoring system requiring competency in algebraic expressions;
Click to expand...

I seem to remember Alexander Zhulin referring to the flipflopping during the free dance at 1994 Europeans as being the result of "algebra."

The two scores from each judge may have seemed straightforward enough, but what the accounting algorithms did with the ordinals and factored placements was often baffling.

Which has nothing to do with music -- sorry.
 
gkelly said:
...
Can we come up with examples of positive other options for female skaters? And examples of skaters using music from sources associated with sexual narratives without relying on those associations?
Click to expand...

Oh that temptress Peggy Fleming, who skated to the opera aria “Mon coeur souvre a ta voix” fm Samson et Dalilah as part of her free skate in ‘68! Of course, it was just pretty music. No story needed.
 
FWIW if music has a definable theme/association, skaters may feel that they'll be penalized if they don't portray that image. Someone could do a really interesting program e.g. dressed as a Goth to Cinderella/I Feel Pretty type music, but I can't see too many skaters feeling brave enough to do that.
 
From a judging POV, I actually don't particularly care whether the skater uses the lyrics or original story. Keep in mind that sometimes the judges are not going to know specifically about the music or it's origin. As a judge if you do know the music well, unless the skater has totally turned it on it's head, then you would kind of expect to see the story reflected in the style and moves eg West Side Story - the choreography from the original music has a distinct feel and style.

On the other hand, and this is more important from a judging POV, you want to see the skater give thought and attention to the music and not just skate through it or treat it as background. That is use the nuances, phrasing, highlights, melody and features. If the music has a type of character, create a character out of it that is appropriate to the music. For example, don't do lyrical and flowing movements to a piece that has bounce and staccato or vice versa. Don't skate small to a large piece of music. If the piece is a waltz, skate to the waltz beat with a 3/4 or 6/8 timing and have your moves, whether it be the edges or arm movements use that.

I have seen skaters pick pieces of music that have lots of energy and try to skate to that level of energy. When I have discussed it with judges, they can get totally sucked in by it. But unless you connect with the phrasing or timing, then I am not buying it.

For example, when Johnny Weir skated to The Swan by Saint Saens, people raved about it. But for me, apart from the costume and maybe a style that reflected the character of the music, the connection to the music for me was lacking because I didn't see him actually work with the phrasing or subtle nuances that is in that music. And being a cello player who knows that music very very very well, I ain't going to buy it if I don't see the phrasing being reflected. Plushenko was another one that again I wasn't musically buying. Lots of energy but it didn't mean squat because it was just frentic. However there is no denying that his performance level was excellent.

Hope that makes sense. That concludes my musical lecture for the day.
 
I agree that generally, as long as the choreography matches the actual beat of the music, has some kind of unified theme, has some unique moves, I'm pretty happy. Even that seems like a long ask most of the time and I wonder if it's because the choreographers themselves are struggling to reinterpret much of the same music repeatedly.
 
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