From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

Primorskaya said:
Agreed. Stop me if I'm wrong, but figure skating doesn't seem to be the most incriminated sport when it comes to performance enhancing drugs. A blanket ban would be ridiculous. Yet they have to do something or else it's a free for all, everyone uses whatever illegal shit they want and competition becomes meaningless. That means a thorough investigation, checking on everyone and sharing results publicly. It's a huge job but it'd be time and money well spent to lift the cloud of suspicion.
Click to expand...
When the heads of the country are involved in the coverup it would be very difficult for anyone
in figure skating in Russia to go against it...perhaps even dangerous.
 
Russian ladies and pairs are two of the most exciting competitions of the season. Both include most of the top skaters in either discipline. And only 3 will go on to the post season game equivalent in other sports. Let the games begin.
 
Mishin's comment:
This is a promising attempt. We are working on it. Nowadays they [others] do quad lutzes as well. This is Liza's interim achievement. As for whether the jump will be performed this season, I can't say for now.
Please, understand, everything is possible. This is a concrete example of the thesis that age is not an obstacle. As a coach I am in a respectable age, so is Liza as an athlete. We are an example that it's never late for new accomplishments.
Click to expand...
 
Sylvia said:
Closer up:

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Click to expand...

I'm loving this!!! I hope this holds up under competitive nerves but she already had the base for a quad. As for Mishin not putting in transitions and stuff, he does what he needs to do to give her steady jump technique. Trusova doesn't have transitions into her quad jumps.
 
Ka3sha said:
Mishin's comment:
Click to expand...

I'm loving Mishin more and more. Liza and Sofia are so lucky to have a coach like him. It's interesting that Alex Krashnyon said that skaters were treated poorly in Mishin's group- maybe this is just for the men or Alex has a bad attitude, however it seems clear that Mishin treats his female skaters very well. He made other comments on how Sofia is dealing with puberty and it seems as if he's trying to ease her through it. Even when Liza went through puberty, he said that you needed to be careful not to injure the athlete [paraphrasing- he said you had to be careful with puberty].
 
Primorskaya said:
Agreed. Stop me if I'm wrong, but figure skating doesn't seem to be the most incriminated sport when it comes to performance enhancing drugs. A blanket ban would be ridiculous. Yet they have to do something or else it's a free for all, everyone uses whatever illegal shit they want and competition becomes meaningless. That means a thorough investigation, checking on everyone and sharing results publicly. It's a huge job but it'd be time and money well spent to lift the cloud of suspicion.
Click to expand...

They did get a warning and what they do? Go and dope in CURLING. If you dope in CURLING, there is no reason to believe you are above doping in figure skating.

Then there is covering up things again.

HOnestly, I agree with full ban. Last time Zhenya was sent to cry for the Olympic committee... and was allowed to compete. Maybe next time, Kamila or some other "15 and a few quads" crying "how dare you, your cheating deprived me of my Olympic moment" would wake up the fed and many people who excuse doping.
Losing opportunity to go to Olympics would suck, but it happened to people before and they lived. Slaps on wrist don't work, time for harsh consequences....
 
Primorskaya said:
Agreed. Stop me if I'm wrong, but figure skating doesn't seem to be the most incriminated sport when it comes to performance enhancing drugs. A blanket ban would be ridiculous. Yet they have to do something or else it's a free for all, everyone uses whatever illegal shit they want and competition becomes meaningless. That means a thorough investigation, checking on everyone and sharing results publicly. It's a huge job but it'd be time and money well spent to lift the cloud of suspicion.
Click to expand...
The problem that the international sports officials keep finding is that if someone did decide to dope everyone in Russian sports leadership would support them in their doping. Even a skater! This is why they keep saying “Russia is failing its athletes” because they would all support them if they did start doping
 
PRlady said:
Now we know who caseyedwards really is.
Click to expand...

I’m not convinced. I think it’s Craig Reedie, the head of WADA :D

And believing that the political stooges at WADA are in any way independent is equivalent to believing that the moon is made out of green cheese. And that is only the starting point in terms of WADA’s many flaws.
www.sciencedaily.com

Problems At World Anti-Doping Agency Will 'Drive Innocent Athletes Out Of Sport'

The current approach of the international agency responsible for fighting the use of drugs in sport will drive innocent athletes out of the Olympic Games, according to an article in the International Journal of Sports Science and Coaching.
www.sciencedaily.com
globalsportmatters.com

Has WADA helped or hurt the anti-doping movement? - Global Sport Matters

In an effort to level the playing field for all athletes, has the World Anti-Doping Agency muddied the waters to the point of ineffectiveness?
globalsportmatters.com globalsportmatters.com
www.cyclingweekly.com

Major flaw in WADA's salbutamol regulations revealed by scientist who helped to create them

Current regulations based on tests on swimmers that didn't take dehydration into account
www.cyclingweekly.com www.cyclingweekly.com
www.outsideonline.com

Don't Trust the World Anti-Doping Agency

The case of Andrus Veerpalu, an Olympic gold medal winning Estonian cross country skier who was accused in 2011 of doping with human growth hormone, raises serious questions about WADA's credibility.
www.outsideonline.com www.outsideonline.com
 
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caseyedwards said:
I would not call Brown a lady. Too many quads in ladies now
Click to expand...
Nobody called Jason Brown "a lady" or "skating like a lady" or said his skating is "not man-like".
Russian word for "man" can be turned into an adjective with several meanings suggesting gender, sex, and a sports category of "Men's event" vs. "Ladies event" in sports. It can mean "man", "male", "masculine", etc.

When someone says for example that Brown is not doing "man skating", it means he does not have the content expected today in a "Men's Singles event" and not that his content is "un-manly". When some-one says his content is "woman like", in russian languages it means his tech content is in the rank of the tech content in "Ladies Singles", not that he "skates like a woman".

The issue of Brown not having quads since 2016 is a common conversation. So are the comments that "girls can beat boys with quads" and "which girl would have placed on the podium in a men's event" in the whole FS worlds. This is not about "sexual orientation" or hints of such.
 
soogar said:
I'm loving Mishin more and more. Liza and Sofia are so lucky to have a coach like him. It's interesting that Alexei Krasnozhen said that skaters were treated poorly in Mishin's group- maybe this is just for the men or Alex has a bad attitude, however it seems clear that Mishin treats his female skaters very well. He made other comments on how Sofia is dealing with puberty and it seems as if he's trying to ease her through it. Even when Liza went through puberty, he said that you needed to be careful not to injure the athlete [paraphrasing- he said you had to be careful with puberty].
Click to expand...
Alexei Krasnozhon gave few interviews while at GP in Russia, to Sport24 channel and written ones. I will not translate it, because a lot of it is very silly, and superficial, a young man trying to show off and to sound analytical while saying several silly and incorrect critique of both USA and Russia, like he was surprised that medicine costs money in USA (while his own father is a private doctor in Russia :D) and that he prefers Putin as president..:D. And etc.. He was being a young proud "peacock", trying to sound important and tough..But that's not the point.

In one of the interviews he explained why he left Mishin and left the country.
- When he was 13 he skated at the Russian Cup final, there were 12 boys including him, 11 were given JGP assignments, and he was the only one who was not. AK: "My coaches (Mishins) and i could not understand why, but that's what federation decided, because they probably had other plans, and that's what gave me a push to leave."

"- AK: and the second reason is that it was not working out for with Mishin. He is a very talented coach, he is great. But i am probably more like Yagudin, i constantly need solid (exclusive) support. I don't need a dog trainer, i am not a dog. I do admire though skaters like Pluschenko, who always follow their coaches instructions, and don't make excuses.... but they are like no-brain soldiers (mindless), and that's not me. I need to be supported (protected, cheered for), if i don't get that from a coach i simply can't skate and can't perform.
Q: Did you not get that in Russia (from Mishin)?
AK: Alexei Nikolaevich stood all the way behind me, like a mountain (gave me full solid support), but i was not his only student. He had other (male) skaters. I was not his sole student. But i want (need) is to be the sole (only) student of a coach.

Back then there was Makar Ignatov who was training 4T, Evgeniy Plushenko was still skating, there was Artur Dmitriev, Artur Gachinsky, Andrey Lazukin... all these athletes, who received that same amount of time and attention equally. But I wanted to have his (Mishin's) attention to be given to me, only me. ... (a bit later into the interviews he says: Yes, i need to be the only student of my coach. Yes, i am selfish, but that's how i am, need a coach who only cares about me and nobody else).

So, the story about "abuse and mistreatment and neglect in Mishin's camp" is a strange one. A lot of people come to USA and use "evil Russia" as an excuse to get sympathy and as an excuse for their own fails, and they also know that Americans love to hear that someone left "evil Russia for good America", it gets you further ... :lol:
 
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I will not go into general issues with WADA and Rusada, but will only post few lines on how it may affect skating events.

Russian skaters can participate, with some admin. procedures and conditions, which are very reasonable.

Rusada is not considered "guilty", they are in the clear. The accusations are against another government organization who held the date and manipulated.

The proposal to not hold any major events in Russia for 4 years, at worst will affect GP-Rostelecom, and if it will happen it will probably be moved to Belorussia. WADA page says "the events can be cancelled if there are no legal and financial implications involved with previously made arrangement. And that athletes and their support teams will be able to participate, with out flag, if they are not implicated in any doping issues, or have not broken any rules.

www.wada-ama.org

WADA Compliance Review Committee recommends series of strong consequences for RUSADA non-compliance

WADA Executive Committee to consider recommendation and proposed consequences on 9 December
www.wada-ama.org www.wada-ama.org
  • Russia may not host in the Four Year Period, or bid for or be granted in the Four Year Period, the right to host (whether during or after the Four Year Period) any editions of the Major Events.
  • Where the right to host a Major Event in the Four Year Period has already been awarded to Russia, the Signatory must withdraw that right and re-assign the event to another country, unless it is legally or practically impossible to do so. In addition, Russia may not bid for the right to host the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games, irrespective of whether the bidding takes place during or after the Four Year Period.
  • Russia’s flag may not be flown at any Major Event staged in the Four Year Period.
  • Russian athletes and their support personnel may only participate in Major Events staged in the Four Year Period where they are able to demonstrate that they are not implicated in any way by the non-compliance (i.e., they are not mentioned in incriminating circumstances in the McLaren reports, there are no positive findings reported for them in the database, and no data relating to their samples has been manipulated), in accordance with strict conditions to be defined by WADA (or the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), if it sees fit), pursuant to the mechanism foreseen in ISCCS Article 11.2.6. In this circumstance, they may not represent the Russian Federation.
 
Tinami Amori said:
I do admire though skaters like Pluschenko, who always follow their coaches instructions, and don't make excuses.... but they are like no-brain soldiers (mindless)...
Click to expand...

What the...? Way to backhand a compliment Alexei from USA, should have taken up tennis :p

Well, whatever.
 
Moskvina on Eteri:

- Have you had an opportunity to interact with Eteri?

- I can't say we are friends but we have crossed paths. I went up to her at a competition once and said : " Eteri would not it be better to change her (Eteri's skater) ponytail?" Her hair was in a ponytail. Eteri told me why it was not possible :lol: I wouldn't want to repeat why.

-Did she use swear words?

- no of course not! Eteri had no control over the girl"s hairstyle
 
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Grandmothers, quads and 3A... :D yes, they can DO IT!.

  • Liza is 23 and she did a quad and has 3A. that just proves there is a quad-life after puberty... :lol:
  • Bonaly performed quad at 19, and Ando at 22-24.. clean or not (in competition) is another issue.
  • any top athlete can do 3A and quad if the ration between weight+muscles/power+technique is there.
  • but it important to start learning early, to programme your body that it is a "norm" and to avoid "fear" which comes later with age.
  • If physical condition is right and the technique and willingness, the only factor later in years is "fear".

Liza started learning quad at 13. She said so in her 2015 interview, stating that she was learning it since 13 along with 3A, but later developed fear. Later in her 2018 interview she said she thought of it but did not need it since she had the 3A which she thought was enough, and that she was now afraid of the quad.
2015
fsrussia.ru

Елизавета Туктамышева: «Хочу оставить след в истории фигурного катания»

Чемпионка Европы и победительница финала Гран-при Елизавета Туктамышева впервые в карьере выиграла мировое первенство, которое проходит в Шанхае. Эта победа россиянки стала знаковой для мирового
fsrussia.ru fsrussia.ru
2018
www.sports.ru

ÐлизавеÑа ТÑкÑамÑÑева: «ÐÑмала попÑобоваÑÑ ÑеÑвеÑной лÑÑÑ, но ÑÑо оÑÐµÐ½Ñ ÑÑÑаÑно»

РоÑÑийÑÐºÐ°Ñ ÑигÑÑиÑÑка ÐлизавеÑа ТÑкÑамÑÑева ÑаÑÑказала о Ñом, какие ÑлеменÑÑ ÑлÑÑÑа-Ñи ÑоÑÐµÑ Ð¸Ð·ÑÑиÑÑ Ð² бÑдÑÑем.
www.sports.ru www.sports.ru


Medvedeva, who started to "advertise" her quad attempts this summer, which created a lot of sensation, and there were rumors that she tried it at show in Japan, and later she published a video of her attempt on the fishing pole, and stating that she spends at least 40 minutes a day preparing for it, when asked about it at the GP Russia, snapped back at the journalists when they asked "how is your quad going":

"I am working on the quad? Honestly, i am a bit sick and tired of this question. My priority is to be healthy, and not to end up jumping on broken legs. I have a fragile body, it needs care, what to eat, when to sleep. Yes, i want to learn it, but will not discuss the training process now."
«Учу ли я четверной? Мне, признаться, немного надоел этот вопрос. Для меня главное – сохранить здоровье, а не прыгать на сломанных костях. Тело у меня хрупкое, нужно следить, во сколько ем и ложусь спать. Конечно, хочу выучить четверной сальхов, но пока не хочется открывать тренировочный процесс»,

She tried it, but at certain age, it seems that "fear" plays a role..

Daniil Gleikhengauz and Alina Zagitova recently gave an interview to NBC Olympics (in English), where he spoke about the quad learning process, and Alina mentioned her weight and quad plans.
olympics.nbcsports.com

Alina Zagitova pushes artistry while younger Russians focus on jumping prowess

“For now, I can’t skate like Carolina Kostner yet,” Olympic and world champion Alina Zagitova said while laughing, “but I’m working at it.”
olympics.nbcsports.com olympics.nbcsports.com

Alina's is a quick one: she said in this and past interviews (when someone posted a fishing-pole quad attempt) that she is 3 kg (5 lbs) overweight to continue with quad attempts, will not consider it until she is in the right form. She will not try 4T or 4S, but rather 4F or 4L if it comes to it.
“Quads are too dangerous for me for the time being,” Zagitova acknowledged. “I will need to prepare for them physically and mentally. I will also need to lose some weight, something like three kilos, to decrease the risk of injuries.

Daniil said this:
“Learning a quad is a question of mentality,” Gleikhengauz said. “When you are 11 or 13, you’re falling every day, as you are learning triple jumps. Then you master them. You start learning triple Axels and quads – and again you fall, fall, fall. And then you master them and you don’t fall anymore. What happens next is that you forget about falling and how to fall. When you have to learn triple Axel or quad later on, then you’re really scared about it and it may become dangerous for you.”
--
“When Alina was younger, no one thought of quads for ladies,” he explained. “She learned the most difficult jumps of that time. Then, we pushed to have our pupils land them in the second half of their programs [because it was worth more points under the rules]. Then, we asked ourselves ‘what’s next?’ We thought that maybe quads would be coming up, and we taught quads to the newcomers. They learned harder jumps.

“Alina is very smart,” Gleikhengauz continued. “She understands that she is 17 years old, not 11 or 12. The current generation will learn quads and land them for several years. At this point in time, ladies’ skating is at the top of technique, so it’s a little bit tough to maintain yourself many years, as technique is going so fast. Tomorrow will be different. Quads will be there for 10 to 15 years. So those girls who are mastering quads [now] will have many more years.”
 
Tinami Amori said:
Alexei Krasnozhon gave few interviews while at GP in Russia, to Sport24 channel and written ones. I will not translate it, because a lot of it is very silly, and superficial, a young man trying to show off and to sound analytical while saying several silly and incorrect critique of both USA and Russia, like he was surprised that medicine costs money in USA (while his own father is a private doctor in Russia :D) and that he prefers Putin as president..:D. And etc.. He was being a young proud "peacock", trying to sound important and tough..But that's not the point.

In one of the interviews he explained why he left Mishin and left the country.
- When he was 13 he skated at the Russian Cup final, there were 12 boys including him, 11 were given JGP assignments, and he was the only one who was not. AK: "My coaches (Mishins) and i could not understand why, but that's what federation decided, because they probably had other plans, and that's what gave me a push to leave."

"- AK: and the second reason is that it was not working out for with Mishin. He is a very talented coach, he is great. But i am probably more like Yagudin, i constantly need solid (exclusive) support. I don't need a dog trainer, i am not a dog. I do admire though skaters like Pluschenko, who always follow their coaches instructions, and don't make excuses.... but they are like no-brain soldiers (mindless), and that's not me. I need to be supported (protected, cheered for), if i don't get that from a coach i simply can't skate and can't perform.
Q: Did you not get that in Russia (from Mishin)?
AK: Alexei Nikolaevich stood all the way behind me, like a mountain (gave me full solid support), but i was not his only student. He had other (male) skaters. I was not his sole student. But i want (need) is to be the sole (only) student of a coach.



So, the story about "abuse and mistreatment and neglect in Mishin's camp" is a strange one. A lot of people come to USA and use "evil Russia" as an excuse to get sympathy and as an excuse for their own fails, and they also know that Americans love to hear that someone left "evil Russia for good America", it gets you further ... :lol:
Click to expand...

Thanks for this because I read a machine translation of his interview and something did not come through on that he felt supported by Mishin and needed to be the only skater.

A few Americans trained with Mishin, including Alex Johnson, and Johnson was very high with his praise of Mishin's training methods- that Mishin was a coach who did not believe in an athlete falling all over the place to get a jump.
 
muffinplus said:
Moskvina on Eteri:
  • Have you had an opportunity to interact with Eteri?
  • I can't say we are friends but we have crossed paths. I went up to her at a competition once and said : " Eteri would not it be better to change her (Eteri's skater) ponytail?" Her hair was in a ponytail. Eteri told me why it was not possible :lol: I wouldn't want to repeat why.
-Did she use swear words?
- no of course not! Eteri had no control over the girl"s hairstyle
Click to expand...

and Eteri pretty much said in reply: when they starting thinking with hormones instead of head, nothing i can do about it. (when hormones do thinking over a brain, i am powerless):D

:D it was about Panenkova's end of programme in 2017..... where she wanted to skate to something that has a meaning "I'll die without you" and in the end wipes off her lipstick and removes a band. Panenkova had an off ice situation then, she fell for a young man who was not responding, the rink girls giggled about it on social media, and Panenkova then was into being "sexy and seductive".
@ 3:60
www.youtube.com

(130.91!!!) Дарья Паненкова ПП ISU JGP Gdansk 2017-2018 / Daria Papenkova FS

Подписывайся =) Subscribe =* Дарья Паненкова ПП юниорский гран при в Польше, Гданьск Daria Papenkova FS ISU JGP Gdansk 2017-2018 http://moredez.ru/raspisanie...
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Here is the rest of this interview: "Moskvina about Tutberidze: Her group is not a conveyor (production line), it's a flow of (a work process with) human talent/potential".
www.sport-weekend.com

Две новости из мира единоборств. Одна от Рамзана Кадырова, другая от Дениса Лебедева

В завершении субботнего дня поступили две новости из мира спортивных единоборств. Одна скорее
www.sport-weekend.com www.sport-weekend.com

Q: You never hid the fact that you are not reluctant to follow/watch other coaches' work process. Have you found anything interesting at Tutberidze's?
TM: I see that she has organized an environment (training environment) for high level competition. Not only in the training process, but through her (students) selection process. There is a large flow of students into her group.

Q: Conveyor (production line) of champions?
TM: It's not exactly a conveyor, but a huge flow of (work process with) human talent/potential.

Q: But only few remain, while many are thrown out.
TM: Anything but "thrown out". ("thrown out" is not the right word). They simply don't move up to (high) level (they remain on a lower level). Let me give you an example. 10 students graduate from a university, and start working at some scientific research centre. One of them becomes a great inventor, and the rest work with papers (work in administrative capacity).

Q: On the other hand, WC 2015, Tuktamysheva is still skating, while Lipnitskaya finished with competitions. We don't know what will happen with other Tutberidze's students.
TM: When you place your child in school in first grade, and then he switches and transfers to another school, you don't go about claiming "Tragedy! Ah, people are thrown out!". This is a natural/normal process. Two people finish high-school. Then one goes to a University, and another one becomes a plumber. So what!? To each his own (different people, different roads). Same in figure skating."
 
soogar said:
Thanks for this because I read a machine translation of his interview and something did not come through on that he felt supported by Mishin and needed to be the only skater.

A few Americans trained with Mishin, including Alex Johnson, and Johnson was very high with his praise of Mishin's training methods- that Mishin was a coach who did not believe in an athlete falling all over the place to get a jump.
Click to expand...
So was Carolina Kostner, for several years. A lot of his students remained with Mishin for years and never complained about mistreatment or neglect.

However, to be fair, Lozko, Nugumanova, and few others, were not happy with their training process, tried to leave to join another coach. Mishin felt they went behind his back and/or that their complaints about training process had nothing to do with Mishin but the skaters' attitude towards training, and because he felt their claims are unfair and their behavior is "sneaky", he did use his authority to make their transfers difficult and almost impossible. But that was not the case with Krasnozhon.

I think it is very unreasonable to expect to have a top world level coach all to yourself and not have other students.
 
soogar said:
I'm loving Mishin more and more. Liza and Sofia are so lucky to have a coach like him. It's interesting that Alex Krashnyon said that skaters were treated poorly in Mishin's group- maybe this is just for the men or Alex has a bad attitude, however it seems clear that Mishin treats his female skaters very well. He made other comments on how Sofia is dealing with puberty and it seems as if he's trying to ease her through it. Even when Liza went through puberty, he said that you needed to be careful not to injure the athlete [paraphrasing- he said you had to be careful with puberty].
Click to expand...

When Zijun Li went to Russia to train with him Mishin helped her a lot and gave her eggs because he said she needed to eat and you have to be strong to jump. She even said she got to treat herself to ice cream once in a while. It's one of the few times I really heard an elite coach was not talking about dieting to their female student, she even gained weight and she was jumping better with him. She said she saved his texts to look at when she felt like giving up because he always encouraged her.
 
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Tinami Amori said:
Nobody called Jason Brown "a lady" or "skating like a lady" or said his skating is "not man-like".
Russian word for "man" can be turned into an adjective with several meanings suggesting gender, sex, and a sports category of "Men's event" vs. "Ladies event" in sports. It can mean "man", "male", "masculine", etc.

When someone says for example that Brown is not doing "man skating", it means he does not have the content expected today in a "Men's Singles event" and not that his content is "un-manly". When some-one says his content is "woman like", in russian languages it means his tech content is in the rank of the tech content in "Ladies Singles", not that he "skates like a woman".

The issue of Brown not having quads since 2016 is a common conversation. So are the comments that "girls can beat boys with quads" and "which girl would have placed on the podium in a men's event" in the whole FS worlds. This is not about "sexual orientation" or hints of such.
Click to expand...

Thank you for providing this nuance for non-Russian speakers. I am appalled at the way translated comments are taken by many skating fans as canon, leaving lexical differences and complexities out of the conversation. Anyone who speaks more than one language understands that there are such issues as literal translation versus translation for meaning, and that often in order to translate meaning, a knowledge of both cultures as well as both languages is required so that meaning can be transmitted more accurately. I personally very much like Jason Brown. I was hoping he’d make the Grand Prix Final — but not with such a performance as he gave in the free skate at NHK. He fell on triple jumps and didn’t attempt any quads. I realize Boyang Jin falls on triples too sometimes, but Jin also has some of the finest quads with great technique, and I was excited to see his first place at Cup of China propel him into the final, given the mistakes by other men in the running at NHK. As far as Yagudin goes, I understand if his directness is not everyone’s cup of tea, and I don’t think a commentator should act biased towards or against certain skaters (I like Tracy Wilson, but had a problem with some of her Skate Canada commentary too — it’s not even that I thought she was wrong, but she’s hardly impartial and it just felt awkward). However, if what Yagudin meant was that Brown’s execution of his content should not have earned a spot at the GPF, I agree with him. My husband and I were shocked to see him go into 5th as it was (we expected him to be lower).
 
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