Trusova breaks 100 in TES.

[starrynight]

Ladies skating suits fair weather fans who don’t have particular attachment to any skater.

But if Trusova establishes herself over time, she will eventually win people over. Nathan Chen did though consistently winning and proving that he wasn’t going to shatter himself into a thousand pieces. People were so so skeptical of him when he went to senior - particularly when he was stretchered off the ice at Nationals after doing a quad.

But Nathan is a good example - Probably fortunate in the end he didn’t win OGM with that empty jump drill. The programs he’s put out since then are much much better.

I don’t think universal fan adoration is ever going to be handed on a platter to skater who has done one GP - these things need to be earned.

 

[bardtoob]

Trusova deserved her ranking as 1st.

Yes, she was overscored in PCS by 0.5-1.0 across the board, she is really a 7.0-8.25 skater right now, but it would not change the ranking and she can just make it up again by landing a clean 4S or repeating the 4Lz or 4T.

Trusova won 1st place because she did the content (.)

Hope she is scored fairly for what she does and does not.

If she can win GPF, Euros, and Worlds this season, good for her. We should cheer. Let her peak, and every athlete has a peak, count for her.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

Keep in mind if the PCS value were changed to the same factor as the men, that means she could do 2 quads in the SP. She still wins. And, everybody's favorite who can't catch her can learn to do what she does then they'll win.

I guess what they what is to tweak the scoring in such a way that favours their favourites. In this case increasing the PCS factor to be equal to the men and not changing the technical rules for the SP. As for PCS of Trusova, she is by no means my favourite, but I see people giving kudos to Zhou and the likes of Nam for their achievement. Nam's PCS was 87, which too should be brought down by nearly 10 points. I see very few complaints about his scoring in this forum.

 

[Wyliefan]

All I want is for each skater to be given points for what she does do and not to be given points for what she doesn't do. That's it. If that means Trusova wins everything from now till 2042, so be it. If all her points come from quads, so be it. I have no problem with that; it's an impressive achievement and deserves to be rewarded. Just mark her and everyone else fairly on the PCS side, and we're good.

 

[barbk]

@zigzig or anyone else with a WSJ subscription, can you post a relevant excerpt?

"
As the rest of the sports world worries about too much specializing, too young, skating has definitely not got the memo. Two female skaters who’ve landed quads in competition, 13-year-old Russian Kamila Valieva and 14-year-old American Alysa Liu, have had to do it in junior ranks because they’re not age-eligible for major events yet. (The only other one to do it so far is a 19-year-old Kazakh, Elizabet Tursynbaeva, who mastered the jump late but happens to be 4-foot-8. None of the skaters hits 5-foot-1.)
“At this point in ladies skating, it seems almost more difficult to become the junior world champion than the world champion,” said Johnny Weir, the NBC commentator."
...
Nobody knows how it will play out for girls who are prepubescent now.
“Once they reach puberty and their body changes…I don’t know,” said Evelyn Kramer, a coach who worked with Michelle Kwan on spins in the run-up to the 1998 Olympics. “Nobody young has done quads before.”
Some skeptics fear they already know the answer: even for the winners, the current model is unsustainable and unhealthy, built on a skater racing the clock and with the likelihood that every year’s top performer will be replaced by another skater the next.

“I think that it will be extremely rare for a female skater to be able to do multiple quadruple jumps past puberty,” said Linda Leaver, who coached 1988 Olympic champion Brian Boitano, who attempted quadruple jumps in competition for several years.
“I also think careers for men will be shorter because of the stress on backs, knees, and ankles, and the body type will be more of a determinate in who can dominate the sport.”

 

[rfisher]

Interesting that the "experts" were coaches over 30 years ago.

Who knows what will happen with Trusova, or Liu, or Shcherbakova, or Kihira, or Valieva in two years or three? Injuries happen. Growth happens. Younger skaters happen. Most of them will probably not skate past their teens. Most will compete until they reach whatever goals they set then move on with college and the rest of their lives. Face it, there are little opportunities for professional skating beyond coaching and choreography even in Japan and Russia and they get tired of the demands required to stay in top physical shape for competitive skating. See Zhou's decision to drop out of the GP series due to school. It's just the way of skating and always has been for those who win. Most skaters do one quad. If they make it to the Olympics and win gold, most are out. The silver and bronze medalists might try one more time. Pairs and dance teams may stay competitive longer as the wear and tear on the body is less, but not single skaters. Kwan is held up as an example of longevity, but the fact of the matter is if she'd won gold at Nagano, she'd have quit then and it would have been Tara who stayed for another shot. Kostner is another, but in Caro's case, there simply were no other Italian ladies who pushed her out. That's not the case in Russia at this time and even though the depth isn't quite as deep in Japan, it's the next example. So, I just take each season as they come. Most of these skaters aren't thinking of skating as a career. It's just what they do now.

 

[starrynight]

I’ve had so much investment following skaters competing for season after season. The feeling of devastation if my favourite skater is injured and misses a competition. So I can’t relate much to fans who don’t care if skaters they like stay in the sport. I don’t think they are actual favourites if fans don’t care.

 

[rfisher]

You can be a fan of the sport you know. These skaters are real people with real lives and they move on to do other things as most of us do in our own lives. Wish them well.

 

[starrynight]

I don’t like the idea of ladies skating being viewed as something that athletes have to get over and done with by school leaving age. Why even bother then. Just skip the sport.

So different to a sport like tennis where there are champions everyone follows for a long time and come to love. Imagine tennis without Williams, Nadal, Federer etc.

 

[rfisher]

I don’t like the idea of ladies skating being viewed as something that athletes have to get over and done with by school leaving age. Why even bother then. Just skip the sport.

So different to a sport like tennis where there are champions everyone follows for a long time and come to love. Imagine tennis without Williams, Nadal, Federer etc.

There is a substantial financial difference in becoming a professional tennis player than participating in an amateur sport. You can't even begin to compare the two.

 

[Cachoo]

She's a little powerhouse with those quads. I liked watching Evgenia much more. There are so many good Russian and Japanese ladies who won't make the team. There must be a way to improve this situation.

 

[Vash01]

There is a lot of discussion here about Trusova having only jumps, her PCS are too high, she will get injured, she will lose her jumps, etc. In 2018 Nathan Chen was in the same boat- 6 quads but hardly any artistry, yet he was getting very high PCS. I don’t recall reading similar criticism of his skating or his marks. His weaknesses were conveniently ignored. Why? Due to his gender or his country or his coach? (After all Trusova is coached by the evil Eteri- sarcasm of course)

This young lady is doing what no other lady has done. She is pushing the envelope, and changing the sport. We will see skaters from other countries doing quads in the 2022 Olympics - may be even earlier. Why not appreciate her spunk, her ability, what she is doing right now and let her develop over the years instead of slamming her?

 

[Wyliefan]

There is a lot of discussion here about Trusova having only jumps, her PCS are too high, she will get injured, she will lose her jumps, etc. In 2018 Nathan Chen was in the same boat- 6 quads but hardly any artistry, yet he was getting very high PCS. I don’t recall reading similar criticism of his skating or his marks.

I do.

 

[Vash01]

Ladies skating suits fair weather fans who don’t have particular attachment to any skater.

But if Trusova establishes herself over time, she will eventually win people over. Nathan Chen did though consistently winning and proving that he wasn’t going to shatter himself into a thousand pieces. People were so so skeptical of him when he went to senior - particularly when he was stretchered off the ice at Nationals after doing a quad.

But Nathan is a good example - Probably fortunate in the end he didn’t win OGM with that empty jump drill. The programs he’s put out since then are much much better.

I don’t think universal fan adoration is ever going to be handed on a platter to skater who has done one GP - these things need to be earned.

He did win the free skate over Yuzuru at the Olympics which was grossly unfair. Yuzuru as a skater was in another league at that time. Trusova will be tested over time but after seeing what a fighter she is, I have no doubt that she will work through her problems. She may not always win because of the fierce competition in her country, and the overall improvement in ladies skating, you cannot just write her off as One GP winner. We have seen her spirit for a couple of years now.

 

[Finsta]

Personally I find Trusova boring. She has quads but not much more. I find both her and Anna to have very juniorish qualities. Quad is difficult but so is maintaining well balanced programs with good skating skills. Why aren’t these being rewarded more? Trusova will continue winning with quads until she retires, hits growth and technique fails her with jumps, or she faces injury. She is young and very aggressive. I prefer more complete skaters, but this judging system doesn’t reward the complete skater. This is in no way a bash to Trusova, who is child. She is going to do what wins.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

How many posters here are actually (or have been) competitive skaters? I would guess not many.

I was a competitor when I was a kid and had all my doubles by the time I was 11-12, which was a big deal for my era. I have my 8th figure test. I still compete now as an adult. My ability to jump has faded because of injury—on good days I can still do 1A—but the thing that continues to keep me competitive despite that? My skating skills.

I commend Trusova and her colleagues for pushing the technical envelope. I don't deny that the jumps are hard—they are!—but it's not the complete picture.

 

[Polaris]

Like many commenters have noted, Trusova relies on rotation speed to accomplish those quads (Hanyu himself confirmed it), and that's not a sustainable way to jump. Camp Eteri seems to teach this jump method, and skaters always get in trouble once they age (e.g. Medvedeva).

 

[Meoima]

Like many commenters have noted, Trusova relies on rotation speed to accomplish those quads (Hanyu himself confirmed it), and that's not a sustainable way to jump. Camp Eteri seems to teach this jump method, and skaters always get in trouble once they age (e.g. Medvedeva).

I am not even sure what do you mean "Hanyu himself confirmed this". He did try side by side 4T with Trusova and later in the interview, he said: "Trusova is the type who jumps with power" and "she has an extremely strong core" and "the speed she uses to enter the rotation is very fast".

He did not say it is good or bad. He just said that style is not the same as his style as his body is different (of course, no one has the same body) and his core strength is different.
The full translation is here: https://twitter.com/axelsandwich/status/1188792914987511808?s=20
The question about Trusova is the last one in the interview.

So yeah, he only said the style of jumping Trusova uses would not work on him because their bodies are not alike. That is all. He never said it is good or bad. After all, we can not tell the future, right? Maybe Trusova will stay the same in the next 3 years, maybe not. We never know.

 

[rfisher]

Since we don't know the future, this season she's the skater to beat. If ladies skating competition medalists are the next 15 year old with the skills, that's what it is. And, the 2022 Olympic medalists may not be any of the current Russian seniors. Nobody knows. But, overall, the women skaters are athletes same as the men. And they're the ones who've decided they can do what the men can do. They've set a new standard in women's skating. Fans may or may not like it, but that's the fan's problem and not the skater. They have a different agenda.

 

[Sylvia]

Olympic Channel excerpted this part of Hanyu's answer re. his respect for the young Russian ladies with quads from the SCI19 men's press conference as an IGTV video (1.5 mins. with English subtitles added for clarity): https://www.instagram.com/p/B4ISTFfBGPo/

Edited to remove Meoima's quoted post and let the presser clip stand on its own.

 

[Meoima]

Olympic Channel excerpted this part of Hanyu's answer from the SCI19 men's press conference as an IGTV video (1.5 mins. with English subtitles added for clarity): https://www.instagram.com/p/B4ISTFfBGPo/

No, the translation I quoted was from an interview in Japanese which Hanyu talked a lot about jump technique. He also mentioned the pre-rotation in the Lutz.
The part you quoted was in English and he mentioned the names of many young Russian ladies who are trying difficult jumps.

 

[lily]

Personally I find Trusova boring. She has quads but not much more. I find both her and Anna to have very juniorish qualities. Quad is difficult but so is maintaining well balanced programs with good skating skills. Why aren’t these being rewarded more? Trusova will continue winning with quads until she retires, hits growth and technique fails her with jumps, or she faces injury. She is young and very aggressive. I prefer more complete skaters, but this judging system doesn’t reward the complete skater. This is in no way a bash to Trusova, who is child. She is going to do what wins.

How those complete skaters should be rewarded?

 

[bardtoob]

Here is Yuzuru and Sasha doing side-by-side 4T ...

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[Meoima]

Here is Yuzuru and Sasha doing side-by-side 4T ...

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He said Trusova came to him and asked him to jump side by side with her. He said yes. They failed the first try because it is hard to change the rhythm of the jump to match another person (each person has their own jump timing). Then they tried the second time and this time they matched well.

 

[giselle23]

Anyway, personally, I think Trusova has a lot to improve in skating skills and performance overall. I do not agree with the PCS and GOE she is getting. But as of right now, there is no one to stop her because our system is designed this way and judges like it that way.

She is adorable though, so... I am fine.

She has no incentive to improve, since she is winning the way she is skating now.

 

[giselle23]

He did win the free skate over Yuzuru at the Olympics which was grossly unfair. Yuzuru as a skater was in another league at that time. Trusova will be tested over time but after seeing what a fighter she is, I have no doubt that she will work through her problems. She may not always win because of the fierce competition in her country, and the overall improvement in ladies skating, you cannot just write her off as One GP winner. We have seen her spirit for a couple of years now.

How can it be grossly unfair when he got the points the rules allowed? There is no point value for being "in another league."
ETA: Hanyu had a 9 point advantage over Nathan in PCS and Nathan still won, fairly, based on his tech.

 

[bardtoob]

She has no incentive to improve, since she is winning the way she is skating now.

I think Eteri will push her to improve.

I can't imagine Eteri, an ice dancer, looking at Sasha's skating and thinking it is a finished product.

 

[Meoima]

Hanyu had a 9 point advantage over Nathan in PCS and Nathan still won, fairly, based on his tech.

No, where do that 9 points come from? have you looked at the protocol?

 

[Vagabond]

One thing that could help restore balance, as I wrote earlier, is changing the PCS facor to 1.0/2.0.

There would still be the problem that currently exists in Men's, namely that skaters can earn more in TES than they can even possibly do in PCS.

Problem is - there are only a handful of ladies doing these quads and 3axels. Re-adjusting the PCS factor may fix the issue at or near the top, but may make PCS overly important in the first 3 groups when they only typically only land 5 to 6 triples or so and without anything more than +3.

This would not necessarily be a bad thing, would it? Perhaps a skater at this level with superior skating skills should get a higher TSS than her rivals with slightly higher BV or GOE.

Even so, perhaps there could be a different adjusting either or both TES and PCS so that the are restored to equal importance.

 

[MsZem]

Bring back figures