Royalty Thread #9. Welcome Archie, the red headed heir, don’t care!

[aftershocks]

I don't think many people question Charlotte's descent from Madragna, who may or may not have been dark skinned.

Yeah right. What's the fear, what's the aversion to someone being dark or tan or brown or velvety black, eh? Let's just try to get over it please. What you just said is like 100s of years into the future efforts being made to cover up Meghan's mother being brown-skinned with broad features, in the absence of irrefutable physical evidence. Meanwhile, there are enough historical writings, scientific knowledge and common sense available for us today to just get over this obsessive need to denigrate anything having to do with the fact that we are one human race made up of people of variant skin colors who have been intermixing since the beginning of time. Dark or brown skin was not a fearful or despised thing in ancient times.

There is no question of Queen Charlotte's descent from Madragana, so that's why there are ridiculous OTT efforts to deny Madragana's ethnic origins and her highly likely dark-skinned physicality. Dark can mean anywhere from very dark to dark-brown to brown to tan. And it's not just about skin color, but also hair texture and physical features, which can also be variant. To this day, in the same families with African heritage you can find fair-skinned, to olive-toned, to tan, to brown to dark brown, and darker-brown skinned individuals with a variety of hair textures and physical features. I know because this exists in my own family.

But this particular ancestor lives 500 years before Charlotte was born- and 15 generations back- making her African heritage only slightly above 1/10th of 1%. Probably most southern Europeans have more than that. And it is hardly enough to make Charlotte "mixed race"- any more than all of us are so to some degree.

If you actually read the last link in my earlier post, written by the man who conducted extensive research into Queen Charlotte's family origins, you will notice: "Six different lines can be traced from English Queen Charlotte back to Margarita de Castro y Sousa, in a gene pool which because of royal inbreeding was already minuscule, thus explaining the queen’s unmistakable African appearance."

That means there is not one line of descent, but six lines of descent from Queen Charlotte to Margarita de Castro y Sousa who is traced back to King Alfonso III and Madragana. It's all about slight variances in genetics, biology and DNA. For example, if Meghan's parents had conceived more children, some would likely have been darker than Meghan. Different skin colors and physical features are made out to be such a big deal when DNA technology has proven that skin color differences have no earth-shattering relevance to the makeup of human DNA.

Here's additional proof that dark and light-skinned genes are variant and not that big a deal:
https://nypost.com/2015/03/02/meet-the-bi-racial-twins-no-one-believes-are-sisters/ female twins
https://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/living/feat-black-white-twins/index.html same as above

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2011/sep/24/twins-black-white male twins

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/28471626/...itish-couple-has-black-and-white-twins-twice/
two different sets of fraternal twins in the same family with different skin tones

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magazine/2018/04/race-twins-black-white-biggs/ additional fraternal female twins of different complexions from yet another British family

 

[MsZem]

Dubious to you and to everyone who feels uncomfortable and prefers to look askance. And that includes quite a number of academic historians who can not dispute Queen Charlotte's lineage from Madragana (aka Ourana), a Moor from Faro, Algarve.

Why does it matter if some long-dead royal had an ancestor going back hundreds of years who was African? All the British royals are also descended from an originally illegitimate royal line from the 14th century. If you go far enough back, you can find interesting and unexpected things for every royal house. Maybe there can be a separate thread to discuss historical royals, so that this thread can focus on current events & fashion, bling, and cute royal kids?

More from Charlotte Casiraghi's wedding, and still no pictures of any of the other Monegasque royals. Did the twins wear something cute? Was Beatrice Borromeo impossibly stylish as usual? What expensive bag lady outfit did Tatiana Santo Domingo come up with?

Charlotte, of course, look fabulous.

 

[aftershocks]

Eys. Even assuming that Madragna was a black woman, to call her distant descendant Charlotte a "black ruler of Europe" is absurd. (Charlotte was a queen consort, not a queen regnant, but let's ignore that pesky fact for the moment.)

On this page is a photograph of Hugh Grosvenor, the current Duke of Westminster, a direct descendant of Alexander Pushkin, who was himself the great-grandson of Abram Petrovich Gannibal, an Ethiopian taken to Russia as a child.

The Duke is about half as many generations removed from Gannibal as Charlotte was from Madragna. If the Duke is black, then I am Idris Elba.

Well, but that's because the terms 'white' and 'black' are social constructs that don't actually make any sense. You are proving the point. Unfortunately, we are stuck with this terminology and as well with these bending over backward efforts to deny how intermixed humans all are actually.

Meghan Markle often was assumed to be 'white,' and she has spoken of that in the past. She played 'white' roles in films. But on Suits, she was allowed to embrace her mixed heritage. When the actor Wendell Pierce was cast as Meghan's character, Rachel Zane's father, on Suits, some fans exclaimed on Meghan's Twitter, among other ignorant utterances: "I didn't know you were black!"

Doesn't Gregory Williams look 'white'?:
https://magazine.uc.edu/issues/1009/president.html
Indeed he does, because as a society that's how we view him. His younger brother had slightly more olive-toned skin. And his father's mother was a dark-skinned African-American woman, though his father (who had olive-toned skin and consequently could be mistaken for Greek or Italian) passed for 'white' and married a so-called 'white' woman, whose heritage was European American. When his father's origins were called out in their Indiana town, Gregory and his brother could no longer attend the segregated white school they had been enrolled in. They ended up being brought up in a Muncie, Indiana black neighborhood in a black school, and were raised by a black couple who were neighbors of their grandmother.
Read Gregory Williams' memoir:
Life on the Color Line: The True Story of a White Boy Who Discovered He Was Black

Why does it matter if some long-dead royal had an ancestor going back hundreds of years who was African?

Once again, that's the point. It shouldn't matter, but obviously it does. Continue to deny, deny, deny. Nothing regarding the gnarly issue of non-existent 'different races' is ever gong to change in our lifetimes.

The reason the topic has been brought up in this thread is because Meghan Markle, who has a mixed heritage, with a mother who is unmistakably African-American, married into the British royal family. The proverbial elephant in the room, and all part of the underlying criticisms of her and the condescension from some quarters. Not by everyone, but these negative attitudes do continue to exist.

Why does it matter if some long-dead royal...

In any case, Queen Charlotte is a pretty famous, long-dead royal. And a very popular Queen in her time. King George III purchased Buckingham House for Queen Charlotte, and it became known as the Queen's House. It's now called Buckingham Palace. Queen Charlotte is responsible for developing Kew Gardens, and as well for having Frogmore Cottage built after her husband purchased Frogmore House for her as a retreat on the Windsor estate. Frogmore Cottage is an example of one of the many cottage orne architectural style residences that were popularized by Queen Charlotte and her family in the late 1700s.

 

[MsZem]

In any case, Queen Charlotte is a pretty famous, long-dead royal. And a very popular Queen in her time.

I'm more interested in royals who are actually alive. You should branch out beyond the BRF, there are some interesting people (and adorable kids) out here.

BTW, Meghan Markle is not the first biracial person to marry into a European royal family; the former Princess Alexandra of Denmark (now Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg) is of European and Chinese ancestry, and originally from Hong Kong. Her older son, Prince Nikolai, has done some modelling.

 

[aftershocks]

I'm more interested in royals who are actually alive. You should branch out beyond the BRF, there are some interesting people (and adorable kids) out here.

BTW, Meghan Markle is not the first biracial person to marry into a European royal family; the former Princess Alexandra of Denmark (now Alexandra, Countess of Frederiksborg) is of European and Chinese ancestry, and originally from Hong Kong. Her older son, Prince Nikolai, has done some modelling.

Right, not in modern times, nor in the historical past -- exactly what I have been discussing. Indeed, Meghan is not the first, nor is she likely to be the last. Thanks for pointing out the Countess of Frederiksborg.

I've been interested in the British royals and in British royal history and British life and culture for awhile. Many European royals obviously are closely related to the British royal family. The 18th Duchess of Alba was a very interesting person descended from the Stuarts. She also had the longest name in the world and she was one of the richest women in the world. Sadly, she had terrible plastic surgery done on her face later in life, which marred her features but not her fun, lively spirit! The short version of her name:
María del Rosario Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart y Silva, 18th Duchess of Alba
A longer version:
María del Rosario Cayetana Paloma Alfonsa Victoria Eugenia Fernanda Teresa Francisca de Paula Lourdes Antonia Josefa Fausta Rita Castor Dorotea Santa Esperanza Fitz-James Stuart y Silva Falcó y Gurtubay

The full version of her name includes the above, plus her 57 titles! However, she preferred to be called by one of her given names: Cayetana Fitz-James Stuart. An only child, Cayetana was the descendant of an illegitimate son of King James II of England (James FitzJames), so she was considered to be during her lifetime, one of the last of the Stuarts, and 'more noble than Queen Elizabeth II.' Cayetana's former riches include some of the greatest works of art in the world. At age 85, she divided most of her 3.5 billion pound estate between her six children, so they would not object to her third marriage to a man 24 years her junior. She died three years later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qusKgbYqPwM a timeline in pictures
https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/du...-in-the-world-dies-at-88-20141121-11qy2i.html
http://www.princemichaelschronicles.com/cayetana-fitz-james-stuart/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/dest...-18th-duchess-of-alba-is-now-open-to-tourists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetana_Fitz-James_Stuart,_18th_Duchess_of_Alba
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/20/spain-duchess-of-alba-dies-cayetana
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/8806653/Profile-the-Duchess-of-Alba.html

Cayetana is a descendant of the enigmatic 13th Duchess of Alba, Maria Cayetana de Silva, a famous muse of the painter, Francisco Goya:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/María_Cayetana_de_Silva,_13th_Duchess_of_Alba

 

[aftershocks]

Her older son, Prince Nikolai, has done some modelling.

I think Nikolai looks better in the modeling pictures with his longer, thicker, naturally curly hair. Or, perhaps his natural hair is straight, and he grew it out and curly permed it for some of the modeling shots. Or maybe when he grows it longer, it's just wavier.

 

[cygnus]

Um- none of us are denying that one of Charlotte's 131,072 15th great-grandparents (probably fewer because of intermarriage, but still!) was of African origin. There are probably more when you look closely. And it's almost certainly true for most of us as well, who have less documented origins. Does it matter? Of course not- but it's interesting, although it makes her no more mixed race than most of Europe.

She was an interesting woman who put up with a lot-including 15 pregnancies in 21 years!

 

[ballettmaus]

She was an interesting woman who put up with a lot-including 15 pregnancies in 21 years!

 

[cygnus]

And 13 of them lived to adulthood- a pretty good survival rate for the time!

 

[mag]

And 13 of them lived to adulthood- a pretty good survival rate for the time!

What is even more shocking is that she lived through 15 pregnancies and deliveries!

 

[AxelAnnie]

Why does it matter if some long-dead royal had an ancestor going back hundreds of years who was African? All the British royals are also descended from an originally illegitimate royal line from the 14th century. If you go far enough back, you can find interesting and unexpected things for every royal house. Maybe there can be a separate thread to discuss historical royals, so that this thread can focus on current events & fashion, bling, and cute royal kids?

More from Charlotte Casiraghi's wedding, and still no pictures of any of the other Monegasque royals. Did the twins wear something cute? Was Beatrice Borromeo impossibly stylish as usual? What expensive bag lady outfit did Tatiana Santo Domingo come up with?

Charlotte, of course, look fabulous.

I never thought Meghan's race was an issue. And I don't know why people make it so. She is American and divorced, and was of a different faith.......now those are issues. (Or could be). Besides, her husband is not in the direct line of succession........so who cares?

I would rather talk about tiaras

 

[MsZem]

I would rather talk about tiaras

Here is a retrospective of Queen Elizabeth's American state visit tiaras.

King Willem-Alexander/Queen Maxima and King Felipe/Queen Letizia will be at the Order of the Garter ceremony later this month (source). Max! Attending a major hat event! I can hardly wait.

 

[Winnipeg]

Maybe it is an issue because it shows how much society has improved in terms of all types of tolerance?

 

[AxelAnnie]

Here is a retrospective of Queen Elizabeth's American state visit tiaras.

King Willem-Alexander/Queen Maxima and King Felipe/Queen Letizia will be at the Order of the Garter ceremony later this month (source). Max! Attending a major hat event! I can hardly wait.

Oh thank you, thank you. I think my favorite is the Girls of Great Britain and Ireland (but the name kind of sounds like a bra). My least favorite is the Belgium Sapphire tiara. Although I love the sapphire's, it looks peculiar with the one thingie up on top.

As an aside....the Queen is so lovely, and so regal that she wears them beautifully.

 

[aftershocks]

... no more mixed race than most of Europe.

Right, because there's only one human race. And lots of intermixing among people of all backgrounds for centuries. In very prehistoric times in Europe, even some non-human Neantherdal blood was mixed-in before Neanderthals died out (as advances in DNA technology have revealed).

Re tiaras, I love reading about the history behind the royal tiaras and jewels on the Royal Order of Sartorial Splendor blog.

 

[ballettmaus]

Here is a retrospective of Queen Elizabeth's American state visit tiaras.

Some of those earrings look incredibly heavy!

 

[Vagabond]

I think someone is obsessed with the "one drop rule."

 

[AxelAnnie]

I think someone is obsessed with the "one drop rule."

What is the one drop rule? I looked it up.

 

[aftershocks]

She was an interesting woman who put up with a lot-including 15 pregnancies in 21 years!

And yes, 13 children survived to adulthood. I was reading a book recently that indicated Queen Charlotte was similar to Queen Victoria in leaning heavily on her unmarried daughters after the death of her husband. In Queen Charlotte's case, the over-attachment was probably at least in part due to King George's physically and mentally debilitating, non-diagnosed illness. In modern times, the symptoms point to it having been porphyria, which has affected other members of the royal family -- the most recent being the late William of Gloucester. If knowledge had existed at the time to diagnose and properly treat King George III, it's doubtful he would have suffered so. In his case, the crude and terrible doctors' treatments were more painful and damaging than even the illness!

Queen Charlotte's daughter, Princess Elizabeth, wrote in 1808 after her mother "vetoed a prospective alliance with Louis Philippe, Duc d'Orleans ... 'We go on vegetating as we have done for the last twenty years of our lives.' In default of a husband and motherhood, Princess Elizabeth [following one of her mother's pastimes] created a cottage orné to keep herself amused." She designed the landscaping and planted a flower garden, as well as decorating the cottage's interior rooms. Ten years later, in April 1818, Princess Elizabeth finally married at the age of 48. She then moved to the small principality of her husband, Prince Frederick of Hesse-Homburg.*

Queen Charlotte died in November 1818.

*ref source: Cottages Ornés: the charms of the simple life, by Roger White, p. 185

 

[aftershocks]

I think someone is obsessed with the "one drop rule."

Eh, it's more likely some people are obsessed with nay-saying and downplaying just how much faux issues of 'race' and biases based on skin color continue to impact our global culture. But right, it's just easier to dismiss the whole shebang, with comments like: 'Things are so much better now. Let's discuss feel-good tiaras instead.'

One Drop: My Father's Hidden Life - A Story of Race and Family Secrets, is the full name of Bliss Broyard's book. You should read it. She and her brother grew up believing they were products of a 'white' family. Their father was from Louisiana with an interesting mixed heritage creole background, but he eventually passed for 'white' when his family moved to Brooklyn. He became the first African-American editor of the New York Times Book Review in the 1960s, but he was not hired with his employers' knowledge of his ethnic background. Bliss Broyard conducted tireless and stellar investigative genealogical research. She writes beautifully and revealingly. This book is so eye-opening, not only about family secrets and hidden ethnic heritage, but it provides fascinating insight into the socio-cultural, economic and political history of New Orleans, Louisiana.

Anatole Broyard's wife is Norwegian-American and she knew about her husband's ethnicity, as did some of his friends in New York. But he and his wife never told their children. When he was dying of cancer, Broyard was still emotionally unable to tell his college-age children (a son and daughter, Bliss). His wife encouraged him, but he died without telling them, so their mother told them, and they both responded incredulously: "That's all it is!" The son, who looks more like his mother than does his sister, quipped: "Hey, I can use that as a pick-up line for getting dates."

 

[clairecloutier]

Trump's state visit to England, ughh. He is such an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135639898503954434

He looks just awful in this picture & Melania is barely better. I feel like both of them must be wearing Spanx to try & pull off those outfits, but it's not working.

No doubt the motto of the week for the royals is "grin & bear it." They've gotta be counting the minutes until the whole entourage is gone.

 

[ballettmaus]

Trump's state visit to England, ughh. He is such an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135639898503954434

He looks just awful in this picture & Melania is barely better. I feel like both of them must be wearing Spanx to try & pull off those outfits, but it's not working.

No doubt the motto of the week for the royals is "grin & bear it." They've gotta be counting the minutes until the whole entourage is gone.

Uh, there is the shadow of a person on Melania's dress. Is that the dress or is it the material.

 

[Lizziebeth]

Uh, there is the shadow of a person on Melania's dress. Is that the dress or is it the material.

I wonder if that shadow is the photographer! I think Melania looks nice.

 

[MacMadame]

It's definitely a photographer.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Trump's state visit to England, ughh. He is such an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135639898503954434

He looks just awful in this picture & Melania is barely better. I feel like both of them must be wearing Spanx to try & pull off those outfits, but it's not working.

No doubt the motto of the week for the royals is "grin & bear it." They've gotta be counting the minutes until the whole entourage is gone.

Or Gin and bear it!

 

[Japanfan]

Trump's state visit to England, ughh. He is such an embarrassment.

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1135639898503954434

He looks just awful in this picture & Melania is barely better. I feel like both of them must be wearing Spanx to try & pull off those outfits, but it's not working.

Melania would do okay without the gloves.

Or Gin and bear it!

Perhaps the Queen had to have a tipple after posing with Trump.

 

[taf2002]

What I can't understand is why they gave him this honor.

 

[ballettmaus]

Perhaps the Queen had to have a tipple after posing with Trump.

Or before to get through the evening

 

[Sylvia]

About the tiaras worn at the state banquet at Buckingham Palace: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tiaras-were-full-force-formal-195900249.html

The Queen arrived wearing Burmese ruby and diamond tiara, paired with a ruby and diamond necklace. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall wore a sparkling Diamond Boucheron tiara for the occasion.
Kate chose the Cambridge Lover's Knot tiara for the evening, one of her favorite pieces, paired with an Alexander McQueen dress.
Princess Michael of Kent was also in attendance at the banquet, wearing the diamond and pearl Kent Pearl Festoon tiara.

 

[mag]

As usual, What Kate Wore has a very informative post on the State Banquet.

https://whatkatewore.com/2019/06/03...littering-jewels-for-state-dinner/#more-59261