Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[Amantide]

And what about all the anguish and probably suicides that come from abuse? When the number abused people who are not believed, harassed, re victimized etc drastically falls to even twice the number of false accusations the cause more than discomfort and inconvenience I will start to worry about false accusations.

It is your prerogative to do so, as it is mine. Not trying to change your mind on the matter.

 

[CaliSteve]

If what I'm reading about the skater (who is one of the accuser) that she is known by everybody, skaters, coaches, judges etc. that will be really horrible for her.
So much for "protecting" the source in "public", while opening their mouth with everyone behind the curtain.

Its been talked about at the skating rink.

 

[Amantide]

Its been talked about at the skating rink.

Its been talked everywhere, apparently. I know, I know, impossible to keep certain "secrets". Sigh!

 

[ioana]

Did anyone else see the #justiceforjohncoughlin temporary profile pics that are showing up on FB? Am not entirely sure what they mean but it doesn't come across as an impartial stance -at least, not to me. And the reason why I would even bring up being impartial is because I've seen that from skaters who are on the athlete advisory committee. Happy to be proven wrong in case there's an alternative explanation.

 

[carriecmu0503]

And what about all the anguish and probably suicides that come from abuse? When the number abused people who are not believed, harassed, re victimized etc drastically falls to even twice the number of false accusations the cause more than discomfort and inconvenience I will start to worry about false accusations.

If you think what happened to John Coughlin amounts to discomfort and inconvenience.......That is NUTS. He lost all ability to earn a living in anything related to skating for at least as long as the investigation would take. Some of the pending cases on SafeSport are almost a year old. This is an exceedingly long timeframe in which to conduct investigations and force people away from their jobs and livelihood. Even if cleared by SafeSport, he would likely never get some of those positions, like brand manager for JW Blades, back. His reputation would never be restored. Many people would still not go to him for coaching due to the court of public opinion judgement. This is not something someone can just "get over." This is way beyond discomfort or inconvenience. It, in fact, just drove a young man to suicide. I would say that is a lot more than discomfort or inconvenience. It is in actuality a highly traumatic event. Yes, being a survivor of abuse is extremely traumatic. While many are able to move past it, they never get over it. This cannot be minimized. People who are convicted and are guilty deserve extremely harsh consequences. This needs to be balanced with the realization that in rare circumstances, people can be and are falsely accused. A false accusation of sexual assault/ abuse is traumatic and life destroying, and we should not be any more okay with even one person being falsely accused of assault than we are with people being assaulted.

 

[giselle23]

Can people stop talking about ‘due process’? This was not a criminal case in court, it was an investigation by a regulatory body. SafeSport’s ruling would not have ended with John in jail. The burden of proof is much lower.

This was not a case being handled by the courts so Constitutional due process does not apply, but if it were, due process standards are essentially the same for criminal and civil cases. The higher burden of proof is specific to criminal cases but things like notice and opportunity to be heard, right to present witness testimony and cross-examination of the other side's witnesses, disclosure of evidence before trial all apply in civil cases. And regardless of whether this was a non-governmental case, due process standards are aimed at procedural fairness, which should apply in private regulatory cases.

 

[Rukia]

Did anyone else see the #justiceforjohncoughlin temporary profile pics that are showing up on FB? Am not entirely sure what they mean but it doesn't come across as an impartial stance -at least, not to me. And the reason why I would even bring up being impartial is because I've seen that from skaters who are on the athlete advisory committee. Happy to be proven wrong in case there's an alternative explanation.

That doesn't sound like there's any good way to interpret it. That's...disappointing. I really hope the accuser has a load of support, especially if they are skating at nationals.

 

[Prancer]

This thread is just so bleak. I am not making any less of any sides involving this issue, i just really worry about what the prominent U.S. skaters will have to deal with for these upcoming nationals. U.S. nationals is already a pressure filled environment, add to that this situation, Judges and coaches also going through such a twisted conflict. It’s just going to get uglier from here on out IMO. When athletes who spent most of their time training and tunnel focused are asked their opinion on such a thing....like it or not skating is a “sheltered” sport, going from 0 to 100 isn’t going to be an easy process.

Someone (@Clay) just told me that this is very much like 1994, where all the talk about skating had nothing to do with skating and skaters were tried and convicted in public. It's not all social media's fault.

 

[Vera Costa]

This is where a dialogue comes in.

You cant force a perspective on people. You have to have a dialogue otherwise it becomes a pissing match.

It’s not that I disagree with you, I do understand what you are saying here. The thing is though:

1) It often falls on the victim or other victims of such cases to conduct this dialogue and that isn’t fair to them. They have enough on their plates. They shouldn’t be expected to make other people understand their pain. Not when they are the ones who are suffering. Skaters and coaches should be expected to educate themselves or the various federations need to start running sensitivity seminars or something. Do they not already have them?

2) A lot of people have pointed out what these skaters have done wrong. Most skaters have chosen to ignore this if not deleting of outright defending. When multiple people are telling you that something you are doing is wrong, if your default is to make like an ostrich, then how does one discuss anything with you?

2) This is the age of the internet. You can do read about sexual harassment/assault victims and their plight. These skaters along with us witnessed the situation with Larry Nassar, through the Me Too movement. Did they learn nothing from it?

People aren’t entirely mad just because these skaters came out to grieve and praise Coughlin. It’s because despite being told why they were wrong, they’re either busy protecting Coughlin or each other.

I’ve seen that some skaters have liked nearly every post mourning or talking about how wonderful Coughlin was. Even a post that states how it’s a pity that the next generation won’t have him for a mentor. This after the allegations were known.

I mean, we’ve gone from perhaps genuine lack of understanding to wilful tonedeafness.

I’m sorry to you and everyone else if I’m coming off as rude or harsh or heavey handed. That isn’t my intention. But I am disappointed and maybe a little tired. This is a battle I’ve been fighting for a long time. But with every case of assault, I see the same behaviour over and over, praise for the accused and anger/ignorance/shame towards the accuser.

 

[Tavi]

It’s not that I disagree with you, I do understand what you are saying here. The thing is though:

1) It often falls on the victim or other victims of such cases to conduct this dialogue and that isn’t fair to them. They have enough on their plates. They shouldn’t be expected to make other people understand their pain. Not when they are the ones who are suffering. Skaters and coaches should be expected to educate themselves or the various federations need to start running sensitivity seminars or something. Do they not already have them?

2) A lot of people have pointed out what these skaters have done wrong. Most skaters have chosen to ignore this if not deleting of outright defending. When multiple people are telling you that something you are doing is wrong, if your default is to make like an ostrich without, then how does one discuss anything with you?

2) This is the age of the internet. You can do read about sexual harassment/assault victims and their plight. These skaters along with us witnessed the situation with Larry Nassar, through the Me Too movement. Did they learn nothing from it?

People aren’t entirely mad just because these skaters came out to grieve and praise Coughlin. It’s because despite being told why they were wrong, they’re either busy protecting Coughlin or each other.

I’ve seen that some skaters have liked nearly every post mourning or talking about how wonderful Coughlin was. Even a post that states how it’s a pity that the next generation won’t have him for a mentor. This after the allegations were known.

I mean, we’ve gone from perhaps genuine lack of understanding to wilful tonedeafness.

I’m sorry to you and everyone else if I’m coming off as rude or harsh or heave my handed. That isn’t my intention. But I am disappointed and maybe a little tired. This is a battle I’ve been fighting for a long time. But with every case of assault, I see the same behaviour over and over, praise for the accused and anger/ignorance/shame towards the accuser.

May I ask why you use the word assault? John Coughlin was reported for sexual misconduct, which is not synonymous with sexual assault.

 

[mag]

@carriecmu0503 I am more than open to changing my view regarding false accusations. Could you provide me with a dozen or so names of people who have been falsely accused of sexual misconduct and had their lives ruined?

Some interesting reading:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...it-facts-former-prosecutor-column/1659190002/
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45565684
https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/03/health/sexual-assault-false-reports/index.html
https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

 

[Vera Costa]

May I ask why you use the word assault? John Coughlin was reported for sexual misconduct, which is not synonymous with sexual assault.

Misconduct encompasses harassment and assault. As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall, hence my usage of (alleged) harassment/assault.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

But with every case of assault, I see the same behaviour over and over, praise for the accused and anger/ignorance/shame towards the accuser.

How do you know John Coughlin committed sexual assault? I was sexually assaulted at 22 years old. As in an attempted rape in the elevator of NYC building. With a naked man putting hands on me and trying to shove his privates into my face. That's sexual assault. So let me ask you again. What do you know about the case that gives you the right to accuse someone of sexual ASSAULT?

 

[el henry]

Misconduct encompasses harassment and assault. As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall, hence my usage of (alleged) harassment/assault.

We don't know that Coughlin committed "crimes". Why are you using that word? We certainly don't know that he committed assault.

I said it before, I'll say it again, skaters saying how sad they are that their friend is gone is in no way shape or form enabling abuse.

Attacking skaters for, yes, publicly sharing their grief *trivializes* abuse.

If that is impossible to see, it's not the skaters' fault.

 

[nlloyd]

At the end of the day we cannot control how people grieve it is not a button that you can turn off or on it is a human
emotion.

I agree that we cannot control how people grieve, kittyjake5. We cannot control the emotions or behavior of others, in general. However, that does not mean we cannot have an opinion about how grief is expressed nor does it make any expression of grief acceptable. Grieving does not give people the right to say or do whatever they want. If an expression of grief exceeds the limits of the law, for example, the bereaved will still be prosecuted. This is especially important because anger is a part of grief, and people sometimes act in harmful ways when they are angry. I would thus agree with you that we cannot, for example, control how Dalilah Sappenfield is grieving and expressing that grief on social media. However, we can find it damaging to others (the possible victims whom she has labelled "liars"). Just as much as it is her right to grieve in any way she sees fit, within legal limits, it is our right to express an opinion on it if we find it ethically problematic.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Misconduct encompasses harassment and assault. As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall, hence my usage of (alleged) harassment/assault.

You cannot accuse someone of committing a crime without proof. It's not ok.

 

[Prancer]

You cannot accuse someone of committing a crime without proof. It's not ok.

Was someone saying that it is?

 

[Vera Costa]

How did you know this was an assault? I was sexually assaulted at 22 years old. As in an attempted rape in the elevator of NYC building. So let me ask you again, why are you insinuating that John Coughlin committed sexual assault without knowing the details of the case? Do you have any idea how damaging such insinuations are? Why not just stick to sexual misconduct until we know the facts?

I didn’t. I said ‘with every case of assault’ indicating in general. Nowhere did I mention Coughlin in that paragraph.
@el henry

I mean since we’ve honestly decided to argue semantics here, the Merrian-Webster has four definitions of the word crime, the second of which is:

A grave offence especially against morality

Would I be wrong in using the word?

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Was someone saying that it is?

Does stating "As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall" not include a direct accusation that the individual committed "crimes"?

 

[mag]

You cannot accuse someone of committing a crime without proof. It's not ok.

People accuse people of crimes without proof all the time. The only time it seems to be a problem is when the crime is sexual misconduct or assault.

Complainants are not required to provide proof or investigate their own complaint. They file a report and the police or governing body take over and investigate.

 

[Prancer]

Does stating "As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall" not include a direct accusation that the individual committed "crimes"?

Sure, if you don't include " hence my usage of (alleged)."

 

[RoseRed]

While I don't think the vast majority of the mourning posts deserve being put on a "trash people" list or being trolled, I am very disturbed by Dalilah and the people around her who are attacking the accuser. It's completely classless. I get she's also mourning, but she's an adult - she should know better than to attack people so publicly. She's the only one I'm willing to put on my "trash people list" after this.

Dalilah's post is one of the most disturbing things in this situation, from my perspective. You're right. She's an adult who should know better than to say what she's said. And worse, as a coach, she is a mandatory reporter. Who would feel comfortable going to her if they were experiencing something like this after seeing her reaction here? It's deeply troubling for me to see someone who is responsible for the safety of minors make comments like this about such a serious issue.

It's perhaps an emotional reaction for me, but I do feel that perhaps there should be some consequences for her. She really really crossed a line. At least I hope the USFS addresses privately with her why what she's said is wrong, and she could apologize and take the post down if she hasn't already. I don't necessarily expect that to happen, but it would be appropriate. And if one of the accusers it going to be at Nationals, and Dalilah knows who this person is, that creates a very difficult situation. I hope nothing inappropriate is said or done at Nationals, I really do.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Sure, if you don't include " hence my usage of (alleged)."

Misconduct encompasses harassment and assault. As of now we don’t know where his crimes fall, hence my usage of (alleged) harassment/assault.

I suppose this is perfectly acceptable.

 

[CaliSteve]

1) It often falls on the victim or other victims of such cases to conduct this dialogue and that isn’t fair to them. They have enough on their plates. They shouldn’t be expected to make other people understand their pain. Not when they are the ones who are suffering. Skaters and coaches should be expected to educate themselves or the various federations need to start running sensitivity seminars or something. Do they not already have them?

People in general need to educate themselves and they dont until it hits close to home. That is the reality. This needs to change. The culture needs to change, which means doing more then trainings and seminars, which are provided to a degree. Changing the culture means dialogue and listening to one another. The more we push the more they resist and it turns into a pissing match that gets know where but bitter feelings and resentment.

2) A lot of people have pointed out what these skaters have done wrong. Most skaters have chosen to ignore this if not deleting of outright defending. When multiple people are telling you that something you are doing is wrong, if your default is to make like an ostrich, then how does one discuss anything with you?

And you can tell them a million times and they wont respond if they feel you dont listen to their perspective. These skaters knew John, we did not. They knew John on a different level. It takes time to process all that has happened.

2) This is the age of the internet. You can do read about sexual harassment/assault victims and their plight. These skaters along with us witnessed the situation with Larry Nassar, through the Me Too movement. Did they learn nothing from it?

I agree that you can learn alot from the internet but like I said people tend not to do that type of research until it hits home.

People aren’t entirely mad just because these skaters came out to grieve and praise Coughlin. It’s because despite being told why they were wrong, they’re either busy protecting Coughlin or each other.

Like I said you can tell someone a million times and they wont respond if they dont feel like they have been heard. Also, the relationship with John plays into this. You also need time for people to process all of this.

I’m sorry to you and everyone else if I’m coming off as rude or harsh or heave my handed. That isn’t my intention. But I am disappointed and maybe a little tired. This is a battle I’ve been fighting for a long time. But with every case of assault, I see the same behaviour over and over, praise for the accused and anger/ignorance/shame towards the accuser.

Its a battle that will continue. Its hard and frustrating but we cant give up. We have to find ways to have a healthy dialogue. Another uphill battle but worth it in the long run.

 

[skatingguy]

Look, if the accusations are watertight the "authority" wouldn't have to leak to Brennan.

We don't know that any 'authority' is leaking to Brennan. She mentioned in the interview that she had about 3 dozen or so sources, and we have no reason to believe that those sources are connected to SafeSport. The investigation is at least 3 months old, it has been mentioned that the identity of the first accuser is well known, and we have no reason to believe that the details of the accusations are not well known in skating circles as well.

 

[Willin]

@Vera Costa From my perspective, it's entirely possible that the skaters are not mentioning the victims because they're too shocked to do so quite yet. That's why I think it's appropriate to give them time: give them the time to process the situation more thoroughly and go through the stages of grieving before addressing the other very difficult part of the situation publicly. As I've said before I'm sure they'll comfort the victim in private before they say anything publicly. For all we know they're already having a private dialogue with him or her.

Besides, they can't win. If they address the victim now the same trolls who are berating them now will then say they're only talking about the victim to get good will back. Or maybe what they say (or even saying how they know the victim) will cause the victim's identity to be released and they don't want that.

Dalilah's post is one of the most disturbing things in this situation, from my perspective. You're right. She's an adult who should know better than to say what she's said. And worse, as a coach, she is a mandatory reporter. Who would feel comfortable going to her if they were experiencing something like this after seeing her reaction here? It's deeply troubling for me to see someone who is responsible for the safety of minors make comments like this about such a serious issue.

It's perhaps an emotional reaction for me, but I do feel that perhaps there should be some consequences for her. She really really crossed a line. At least I hope the USFS addresses privately with her why what she's said is wrong, and she could apologize and take the post down if she hasn't already. I don't necessarily expect that to happen, but it would be appropriate. And if one of the accusers it going to be at Nationals, and Dalilah knows who this person is, that creates a very difficult situation. I hope nothing inappropriate is said or done at Nationals, I really do.

This is literally the only criticism of Dalilah I'm taking issue with. Yes - she is a mandated reporter - but it doesn't sound like she had any clue of any previous allegations. If she didn't know she couldn't report. And although we could say "well she certainly heard the rumors," so did dozens of other skaters and coaches that were supposed to report but didn't. So I don't have an issue with her not reporting - that's more of a systemic issue or perhaps an issue of knowledge. Maybe this will cause skaters and coaches to take rumors more seriously.

I do hope USFSA takes action. I doubt they will, but I hope they do. Or maybe Safesport. I don't think the skaters posting tributes to Coughlin on social media will have near the effect on repressing sexual assault allegations as Dalilah's post will. I'm not scared to report someone that's well-liked. One guy that sexually harassed me was a varsity athlete and I had no problem making enough of a stink to get him suspended - despite the guff I got from his teammates and friends. I would have a problem reporting someone if I knew they had an ally that could threaten my life's work, and Dalilah has that pull in USFS and particularly pair's skating.

If USFS is serious about making sure victims feel safe to report they need to suspend Dalilah or at the very least condemn her statements.

 

[Sylvia]

New York Times' Jeré Longman wrote an article that will be in the print edition on Tuesday (Jan. 22): Skating Is Familiar With Scandal. Now It Is Confronting Something Grimmer.

"Coughlin’s story reflects both an enhanced effort to construct a safety net to protect athletes against sexual impropriety and the imperfections that remain in that web, not just in figure skating, but in every sport."

 

[skatfan]

New York Times' Jeré Longman wrote an article that will be in the print edition on Tuesday (Jan. 22): Skating Is Familiar With Scandal. Now It Is Confronting Something Grimmer.

Ok this is in the “you can’t make up this stuff” world - Craig Maurizi’s wife is John Couglin’s agent:

Maurizi, whose wife, Tara Modlin, was Coughlin’s agent, also questioned whether due process was being fairly granted to all parties in cases investigated by SafeSport. “It’s such mixed emotions and mixed feelings, given the situation with my friend who felt he didn’t have due process and was not given an opportunity to voice his side,” Maurizi said of Coughlin.

 

[RoseRed]

This is literally the only criticism of Dalilah I'm taking issue with. Yes - she is a mandated reporter - but it doesn't sound like she had any clue of any previous allegations. If she didn't know she couldn't report. And although we could say "well she certainly heard the rumors," so did dozens of other skaters and coaches that were supposed to report but didn't. So I don't have an issue with her not reporting - that's more of a systemic issue or perhaps an issue of knowledge. Maybe this will cause skaters and coaches to take rumors more seriously.

I do hope USFSA takes action. I doubt they will, but I hope they do. Or maybe Safesport. I don't think the skaters posting tributes to Coughlin on social media will have near the effect on repressing sexual assault allegations as Dalilah's post will. I'm not scared to report someone that's well-liked. One guy that sexually harassed me was a varsity athlete and I had no problem making enough of a stink to get him suspended - despite the guff I got from his teammates and friends. I would have a problem reporting someone if I knew they had an ally that could threaten my life's work, and Dalilah has that pull in USFS and particularly pair's skating.

If USFS is serious about making sure victims feel safe to report they need to suspend Dalilah or at the very least condemn her statements.

I'm not saying she had a responsibility to report anything. I just consider it extra bad for someone who is in a position to be a mandatory reporter to make comments about sexual misconduct allegations like that. Like given her comments, would I trust her to do her duty and report if she was aware of a situation (not connected to this one) in the future? No. And that's a problem. These kind of comments are bad from anyone, but I find them more troubling coming from someone responsible for protecting minors.

 

[overedge]

Wasn't Coughlin employed as a coach in Dalilah's program?