Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

[her grace]

Let's say that they include the details "allegations of misconduct: sexual assualt of minor" or "allegations of misconduct: sexual misconduct involving an adult"

Do you really believe that this would make life better for the accused?

Probably not if it was an egregious offense like "allegation of misconduct: sexual assault of a minor." If it was an alleged lesser violation, the accused might want the world to know that. Conversely, if it was an alleged potentially criminal violation, they probably would not. I do take your point and @rfisher's point that this approach would violate the victims' privacy seriously and think they have merit.

 

[canbelto]

You know this might come as a shock to people, but grieving does not have to be done over social media. In fact, no messy process has to be on social media. Social media is what you CHOOSE to share. The skaters who have expressed grief at Coughlin's death on social media are making a choice of putting their feelings out there. When a situation is as highly charged as this one is (accusations of abuse of two minors, a sudden suicide) there will be heated feelings. Skaters can privately express condolences to John's family and stay off their twitter/FB/instagram. I don't really blame people for reacting negatively to this particular expression of grief. I also think it's disgusting the amount of victim blaming there has been on this board and the rationalizations that it must have simply been an inappropriate comment/joke.

Also, John's action was IMO very selfish. I normally don't judge suicide victims. I can't put myself in someone's brain and judge the amount of pain they are in. However to kill himself the day after an investigation is deemed serious enough to suspend him from the sport? By killng himself he's denied closure to his family, his friends, his accusers, the figure skating community. Anything that happens henceforth will be hampered by the fact that he is no longer there to defend himself. As I said, these are not the actions of a guiltless man.

 

[Amantide]

I would strongly suggest to all skaters to take a good break from twitter or any other social media.

 

[princeton123]

Can people stop talking about ‘due process’? This was not a criminal case in court, it was an investigation by a regulatory body. SafeSport’s ruling would not have ended with John in jail. The burden of proof is much lower.

 

[Vera Costa]

This list of "trash people in skating" encourages harassment, threats, and so on towards these skaters.

Who is encouraging anything towards these skaters? That least is so you know who to stop supporting if you don’t want to. I follow a lot of skaters and had to hit a lot of unfollow button after seeing the behavior of some skaters. That list is to tell you how toxic the skating culture is wherein and majority cannot being up support for alleged victims of abuse.

I’ve see skaters defending each and Coughlin other rather than taking a moment to reflect on their actions. You know who the real victim of harassment here is? The victim who now knows her fellow skaters can’t drum up the strength, energy or want to defend her, to support her, to believe her.

You think a few people on tumblr, Twitter, whatever have as much power to run a harassment scheme against a majority of the skaters. The actual power here lies in the hand of the skaters and coaches with their thousands of followers who are choosing to show support to an alleged sexual harasser/assailant rather than his possible victim. If the rumours are true and she will be at nationals this week, they just made her time harder. That is power.

They can choose to grieve for however they want to.

I keep seeing this said and no, they really can’t. The moment the made their grief public, they affected someone else. Grieving in private is different than grieving in pubic. Acting in grief doesn’t mean you get to hurt others which is what a lot of the skaters did do. In their grief, they heaped praise on an alleged abuser and ignored his potential victims.

Some here are acting like the crime here was shoplifting and not possible Sexual harassment/assault.

I won't engage with you any longer on this because it shows me what kind of person you are that you think harassing people--entirely the point of this list--is somehow acceptable.

I’m sorry, but is this kind of talk allowed?

That the things said to these skaters even those who simply had a black picture.

Convenient that those skaters had the time to post a picture mourning their friend/fellow skater but didn’t have the time to drop a line saying ‘I support the victims’.

Alas, I’ll respect your wishes and avoid engaging with you any further.

It is clear that we disagree greatly, perhaps too much to have a civil conversation.

 

[demetriosj]

...Oh, please. It's all over the news media. They went with what they had and now they have more and have reported the new information.............

Oh, please. They went with what they had? And now the family is receiving death threats. Is that responsible journalism? How about finding out all of the facts before smearing a group of young teens without any proof of wrongdoing?

 

[Tavi]

So, in the mean time, the court of public opinion gets to only hear a part of one side of the story (he did something to someone, but we have no idea what). The public gets to jump to the conclusion that not only is he guilty, but he is guilty of sexually assaulting multiple women. He gets to continue to have his reputation ruined, and all the while, he is allowed to say nothing of it publicly. No chance to publicly tell his story or to publicly defend himself. I am a survivor advocate. I will say it again. However, due process needs to be granted. John was allowed no opportunity to publicly defend himself while his reputation and livelihood were destroyed. If he is guilty, he deserved to face consequences. But what if he was not guilty?

It is not true that the accused has no chance to defend himself. Have you read the SafeSport procedures manual?

https://77media.blob.core.windows.n...8.2018-03-21---appendix-a---final-amended.pdf

Section IIIA2a states:

Opportunity to provide evidence

During an investigation, both the Reporting Party and the Responding Party are permitted to provide evidence, including written statements, lists of potential witnesses, and other physical or documentary evidence.

Section IIID lists steps the investigator may take when a full investigation is required. I’m only listing a few of the steps:

The investigator(s) may take the following steps:

a. Seek to notify the Reporting Party that the Office is conducting an investigation into the possible Code Violation and inform the Reporting Party of the right to meet with the investigator and present evidence in support of the complaint along with the names and/or contact information of any potential witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.
b. Seek to interview the Responding Party and advise the Responding Party of the nature of the allegation before making a determination. The Responding Party will be provided the opportunity to present a response to the allegations, including evidence and the names and/or contact information of potential witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.
c. Seek to interview witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.

 

[her grace]

Not saying that this applies to the Coughlin investigation, but Prancer's post of the SafeSport definitions of misconduct was eye-opening. This SafeSport rule could be the subject of future investigations for some time in the skating world:

Notes:
• Minors cannot consent to sexual activity with an adult. All sexual interaction between an adult and a minor is strictly prohibited.

How many pair or dance teams have been romantic couples? When one was still a minor and the other was an adult or became an adult (not asking for names here!)? If Grinkov was alive and coaching today, could he be suspended because of his and Gordeeva's relationship when she was a teenager? These relationships are often legal under Romeo & Juliet laws. It's different if it's a coach and student where there is a power dynamic. But between peers or skating teams who are apt to fall in love with each other? I hope USFS is communicating this rule to athletes, and/or their parents.

 

[Stephori]

Why report it if you don't know if it's correct?

I reported what the site said. How in the world would I know that the net worth they give is correct. Others questioned the figure and I told them I was reporting what the site said. Two different sites had the same figure Geez, most of us here are not reporters or investigators. Google John Coughlin's net worth and make your own decision.

 

[canbelto]

Here's something to chew on: considering the culture of silence and of what constitutes acceptable coaching behavior in figure skating (Adam Rippon apparently thought it was okay that his coach called him an elephant and he subsisted on one piece of bread per day for years), you think these (three) accusations were made lightly? Whatever happened, it must have made the three accusers either scared or uncomfortable enough to reach out for help. And what happens? Now they are being shamed, doxxed, accused of being liars, etc.

If I had a child right now I would think heavily before enrolling them in elite figure skating.

 

[kittyjake5]

At the end of the day we cannot control how people grieve it is not a button that you can turn off or on it is a human
emotion.

 

[CaliSteve]

Not saying that this applies to the Coughlin investigation, but Prancer's post of the SafeSport definitions of misconduct was eye-opening. This SafeSport rule could be the subject of future investigations for some time in the skating world:



How many pair or dance teams have been romantic couples? When one was still a minor and the other was an adult or became an adult (not asking for names here!)? If Grinkov was alive and coaching today, could he be suspended because of his and Gordeeva's relationship when she was a teenager? These relationships are often legal under Romeo & Juliet laws. It's different if it's a coach and student where there is a power dynamic. But between peers or skating teams who are apt to fall in love with each other? I hope USFS is communicating this rule to athletes, and/or their parents.

I believe its part of the training.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Even when Nassar stuff came out there were months of people demonizing the accusers and saying all sorts of slander against them and their motivations as to why they would file a complaint against such a good man.

Then there was Kyle Stephens, who was abused by Nassar, a family friend, from the ages of 6-12 until she told her parents, "Ultimately, Kyle says, her parents believed Larry. Their friendship continued."
https://believed.michiganradio.org/larry-nassar-the-basement/

The linked transcript is only a partial transcript. If you listen to the podcast, you will hear her describe how her father bullied her into lying about her experience: "If you don't tell the truth, I will make your life a living hell." As if her life wasn't one and wouldn't get worse.

Retailation against accusers can come from all sides.

When the Lassar case came out there had been months before the public knew Denhollander's name.

There were many false starts against Nassar: he was an expert at bringing his powerpoint when summoned by the police for over a decade about his "procedure" and he snowed many a police detective before Denhollander, who saw the initial investigative report in the Indianapolis Star and went to them and then to the police, and this time, there was someone, Detective Andrea Munford, who carefully nailed him.

So by the end of August 2016, the IndyStar had three different women from three different parts of the country, all with similar stories about the same doctor.

“To me, that’s when, that was the moment when I thought, ‘oh my God, we might really be onto something,’” says Mark.[Alesio, Indy Star reporter]

Mark let Rachael know she wasn’t the only one, that they were getting more tips about Larry.

But Rachael was different. She was the only woman willing to use her name on the record.

https://believed.michiganradio.org/how-larry-nassar-got-caught/

"Without that first Indianapolis Star story in August of 2016, without the story where Rachael came forward publicly shortly thereafter, he would still be practicing medicine, treating athletes and abusing kids," [Prosecutor Angela] Povilaitis said.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/25/us/larry-nassar-indy-star/index.html

 

[leafygreens]

Oh, I fully expect USFSA or at least one associated individual to say something inappropriate about the situation or give a full-on tribute in a poorly worded manner.

PSA already has, in my opinion. Their tone deaf statement didn't acknowledge that there could be victims, just that they stand by their coaches. What if the coach has done something wrong? They should have tried to appear more protective of student safety.

I just spent quite a bit of time reading all the comments posted under Delilah S’s facebook post. Wow are there ever a lot of furious, hurt people out there - many who think the accuser(s) is making this up for motives that aren’t yet clear to me. The accuser certainly is going to be blacklisted within the skating community from what I can gather.

I'm appalled at Delilah's lashing out response, as well as that of one of her students, who is arguing with people on Twitter. I get that they are hurt, but they are public figures in a high position in our sport. It's just a very bad look for the sport, and for her as a coach. What student would want to take from her and be submitted to that response, if they report alleged abuse?

I have to agree with this, and I want to say those complaining about John's lack of due process...due process is giving the accused a chance to be heard, and John Coughlin's actions is what has prevented that from happening. I don't mean to undermine suicide or how people deal with suicidal tendencies or anything like that. It's just the fact that John Coughlin committing suicide is the reason why we won't hear his side of the story.

John did speak to Christine Brennan and claimed his innocence. In fact, she is the ONLY one who ever gave him that chance. He wasn't muzzled enough to be prevented from speaking to her. Outside of revealing sensitive information, there probably isn't much more that could have been said at the moment.

 

[overedge]

I reported what the site said. How in the world would I know that the net worth they give is correct. Others questioned the figure and I told them I was reporting what the site said. Two different sites had the same figure Geez, most of us here are not reporters or investigators. Google John Coughlin's net worth and make your own decision.

As someone else pointed out, if you looked at the dates and places of employment and at Coughlin's age, it's pretty easy to figure out which information isn't about him. As someone else pointed out, some of the numbers are way out of whack for what a professional skater would earn even if they were a world or Olympic champion. You don't have to be a reporter or investigator to figure out basic information like that.

 

[carriecmu0503]

It is not true that the accused has no chance to defend himself. Have you read the SafeSport procedures manual?

https://77media.blob.core.windows.n...8.2018-03-21---appendix-a---final-amended.pdf

Section IIIA2a states:

Opportunity to provide evidence

During an investigation, both the Reporting Party and the Responding Party are permitted to provide evidence, including written statements, lists of potential witnesses, and other physical or documentary evidence.

Section IIID lists steps the investigator may take when a full investigation is required. I’m only listing a few of the steps:

The investigator(s) may take the following steps:

a. Seek to notify the Reporting Party that the Office is conducting an investigation into the possible Code Violation and inform the Reporting Party of the right to meet with the investigator and present evidence in support of the complaint along with the names and/or contact information of any potential witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.
b. Seek to interview the Responding Party and advise the Responding Party of the nature of the allegation before making a determination. The Responding Party will be provided the opportunity to present a response to the allegations, including evidence and the names and/or contact information of potential witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.
c. Seek to interview witnesses with direct knowledge of the allegations.

This is all done behind closed doors. Again, John had no chance to publicly defend himself.

 

[Stephori]

I hope that if one of the accuser is scheduled to compete at nationals, she will not withdraw.

John's father is a 30 year veteran of the Kansas City police department.

Caydee is planning to attend the funeral (she now lives in Florida)

 

[Amantide]

As I said, these are not the actions of a guiltless man.

I was with you, until this^.

As you already mentioned yourself, it's really hard to judge what pushes a person over the edge, to the point of taking his own life. And it doesn't always mean "guilty".

Not speaking about this case in particular, because I have no clue about the facts. But there are many cases of wrongful convictions. It's one of the main reasons why I am against death penalty, for example.

Father killed himself after hate mob wrongly accused him of being James Bulger child killer Robert Thompson

Man Killed Himself after False Rape Claim Despite ‘Texts That Proved His Innocence’

Darryl Hunt, who was imprisoned for more than 19 years for a murder he did not commit, apparently committed suicide. In 1984 at age 19, Hunt was charged with the rape and murder of a newspaper copy editor in Winston-Salem. After 19 years in prison, Hunt was exonerated in February 2004 after DNA evidence led police to Willard Brown, who confessed to the killing.

26 Years Later, Justice for Men Imprisoned for a Bogus Rape

This one didn't kill himself but spent 3 years in jail, and was falsely accused for rape.

John Bunn was just 14 when he was jailed for the murder of an off-duty correction officer in Brooklyn.
He was finally able to clear his name Tuesday, when a judge formally exonerated him after 27 years. He's 41 now.

The list of miscarriage of justice cases is long, everywhere. A quick look on the Death Penalty Information Center website will suffice to give us an idea. Maybe it's not a popular opinion nowadays but "innocent until proven guilty" (though we never know in this particular case) still hold with me.
I am strongly against any mob mentality, mob lynching and "The Court of Public Opinion ".
I've seen "People's Court" in action far to well, and I don't want to see it again.

 

[libecha]

Not saying that this applies to the Coughlin investigation, but Prancer's post of the SafeSport definitions of misconduct was eye-opening. This SafeSport rule could be the subject of future investigations for some time in the skating world:



How many pair or dance teams have been romantic couples? When one was still a minor and the other was an adult or became an adult (not asking for names here!)? If Grinkov was alive and coaching today, could he be suspended because of his and Gordeeva's relationship when she was a teenager? These relationships are often legal under Romeo & Juliet laws. It's different if it's a coach and student where there is a power dynamic. But between peers or skating teams who are apt to fall in love with each other? I hope USFS is communicating this rule to athletes, and/or their parents.

The problem is that this is very much state-by-state. And skaters and other athletes travel around so much for training and competitions, particularly at the top levels, that SafeSport has to set their rules by the states with the strictest standards. If you are a 16-year-old and 19-year-old pair training at home in Minnesota and start a relationship, you're fine. Spend the summer next door in Wisconsin for additional training at another rink and you've just committed statutory rape--age of consent in WI is 18 and there is no Romeo and Juliet exception. California is the same way. And then that triggers mandatory reporting obligations for those around you, and there's a whole mess. They can't do it any other way, and it's not unreasonable at all.

 

[Prancer]

...Oh, please. It's all over the news media. They went with what they had and now they have more and have reported the new information.............

Oh, please. They went with what they had? And now the family is receiving death threats. Is that responsible journalism? How about finding out all of the facts before smearing a group of young teens without any proof of wrongdoing?

How about we go to PI; we can have a nice conversation about this there. And please learn to use the quote function,

 

[mag]

How many pair or dance teams have been romantic couples? When one was still a minor and the other was an adult or became an adult

It certainly could be said that the male partner has power over the female partner even if they are close in age. Male partners are few and far between. Female figure skaters will often put up with a lot to get to keep a partner.

 

[canbelto]

I was with you, until this^.

As you already mentioned yourself, it's really hard to judge what pushes a person over the edge, to the point of taking his own life. And it doesn't always mean "guilty".

Not speaking about this case in particular, because I have no clue about the facts. But there are many cases of wrongful convictions. It's one of the main reasons why I am against death penalty, for example.

Father killed himself after hate mob wrongly accused him of being James Bulger child killer Robert Thompson

Man Killed Himself after False Rape Claim Despite ‘Texts That Proved His Innocence’

Darryl Hunt, who was imprisoned for more than 19 years for a murder he did not commit, apparently committed suicide. In 1984 at age 19, Hunt was charged with the rape and murder of a newspaper copy editor in Winston-Salem. After 19 years in prison, Hunt was exonerated in February 2004 after DNA evidence led police to Willard Brown, who confessed to the killing.

26 Years Later, Justice for Men Imprisoned for a Bogus Rape

This one didn't kill himself but spent 3 years in jail, and was falsely accused for rape.

John Bunn was just 14 when he was jailed for the murder of an off-duty correction officer in Brooklyn.
He was finally able to clear his name Tuesday, when a judge formally exonerated him after 27 years. He's 41 now.

The list of miscarriage of justice cases is long, everywhere. A quick look on the Death Penalty Information Center website will suffice to give us an idea. Maybe it's not a popular opinion nowadays but "innocent until proven guilty" (though we never know in this particular case) still hold with me.
I am strongly against any mob mentality, mob lynching and "The Court of Public Opinion ".
I've seen "People's Court" in action far to well, and I don't want to see it again.

I agree that there are false accusations and people are wrongly accused of actions and there can be a mob mentality. However all the cases you cite are people who were serving prison sentences for crimes they did not commit. Most of those cases happen to be men who did not have the means to defend themselves. Another case I could cite is the Central Park Jogger rape. Again, police rounded up some teens of color who happened to be in the area. A gross miscarriage of justice.

What happened to Coughlin is different. He was a respected figure within the community when three separate complaints about him were reported to Safesport. False accusations against people in power and privilege are much, much less common than a mob mentality against "the usual suspects."

 

[Amantide]

I agree that there are false accusations and people are wrongly accused of actions and there can be a mob mentality. However all the cases you cite are people who were serving prison sentences for crimes they did not commit. Most of those cases happen to be men who did not have the means to defend themselves. Another case I could cite is the Central Park Jogger rape. Again, police rounded up some teens of color who happened to be in the area. A gross miscarriage of justice.

What happened to Coughlin is different. He was a respected figure within the community when three separate complaints about him were reported to Safesport. False accusations against people in power and privilege are much, much less common than a mob mentality against "the usual suspects."

It doesn't make it any better or less wrong, that people in "power and privileged" being falsely accused are much less common. When it's false it is false, and it is a mob mentality, privileged or not.

However, my whole point was that people kiiling themselves over such accusations, doesn't equal "found guilty".

 

[DimaToe]

This thread is just so bleak. I am not making any less of any sides involving this issue, i just really worry about what the prominent U.S. skaters will have to deal with for these upcoming nationals. U.S. nationals is already a pressure filled environment, add to that this situation, Judges and coaches also going through such a twisted conflict. It’s just going to get uglier from here on out IMO. When athletes who spent most of their time training and tunnel focused are asked their opinion on such a thing....like it or not skating is a “sheltered” sport, going from 0 to 100 isn’t going to be an easy process.

 

[Rukia]

This thread is just so bleak. I am not making any less of any sides involving this issue, i just really worry about what the prominent U.S. skaters will have to deal with for these upcoming nationals. U.S. nationals is already a pressure filled environment, add to that this situation, Judges and coaches also going through such a twisted conflict. It’s just going to get uglier from here on out IMO. When athletes who spent most of their time training and tunnel focused are asked their opinion on such a thing.....

I hope hope hope someone in USFSA is preparing at least the top skaters who are inevitably going to be asked something by Andrea Joyce immediately after a skate with some kind of something to say.

Actually on second though, maybe depending on USFSA to help them walk the fine line they will be required to walk with an answer is not the best idea.

 

[Amantide]

This thread is just so bleak. I am not making any less of any sides involving this issue, i just really worry about what the prominent U.S. skaters will have to deal with for these upcoming nationals. U.S. nationals is already a pressure filled environment, add to that this situation, Judges and coaches also going through such a twisted conflict. It’s just going to get uglier from here on out IMO. When athletes who spent most of their time training and tunnel focused are asked their opinion on such a thing.....

If what I'm reading about the skater (who is one of the accuser) that she is known by everybody, skaters, coaches, judges etc. that will be really horrible for her.
So much for "protecting" the source in "public", while opening their mouth with everyone behind the curtain.

 

[Tavi]

This is all done behind closed doors. Again, John had no chance to publicly defend himself.

He had no opportunity to publicly defend himself because he took his own life first. SafeSport provides an opportunity for someone accused of sexual misconduct to present evidence in his or her own defense to the body charged with investigating and deciding the charges. The investigation was not complete and no final decision had issued. By taking his own life, he not only stopped the SafeSport process before it was complete, but he deprived himself, if he was wrongly accused, of the opportunity to fight to clear his name in any way he could.

 

[DimaToe]

Actually on second though, maybe depending on USFSA to help them walk the fine line they will be required to walk with an answer is not the best idea.

This is why it is so complicated. John’s contemporaries probably have set thoughts on what they think, but for the generation after that who he might seem like “random guy”. There might be some really heavy questions dropped upon the least adequate people to answer them

 

[CaliSteve]

That list is necessary. That isn’t just people grieving or remember their friend. Nearly every top skater is on that list. Add the various former amateur skaters, the silence from the coaches after the PSA announcement and Delilah Sappenfield running off to People and you have a culture.

The "Trash List" is a form of bullying and shaming period. Its a gang mentality and its wrong. There are many other productive ways to convey the point of view of the accuser/abused.

IMHO, Delilah has gone off the deep end. She is letting her emotions get the best of her. Ive been there, too many times. You have someone special in your life commit suicide. Its something you really dont get over. My guess is that JC told her the situation from his perspective and she believed him and will continue to believe to the very end. I think it would be tragic if she or anyone tries to confront the accuser. That is what needs to be addressed.

You have two sides that have very strong feelings and opinions. You need to be able to listen and hear each other in a constructive way. This is the only way to heal and move foreword with knowledge and better understanding of all perspectives. This helps change the culture.

The victim blaming, the near complete lack of acknowledgement of the victims, the blaming of reporters and institutions, there is a lot to say about how the figure skating community has reacted to an allegation and none of it is good.

Some people dont see as victim blaming. They see it as they lost a loved one who was falsely accused of something horrific and they are seeking justice. When your grieving and emotional you look for quick answers and you point fingers. You have to acknowledge this so you can it help people heal and think about the situation on a different level.

Not one prominent skater, former or current has stepped up to say this is wrong. I don’t blame those who remained silent. There are plenty of reasons including personal experiences and genuine confusion. But the skaters who went and wrote about how amazing Coughlin was and others who by liking or retweeting tacitly gave their support to those post and further legitimized them, they should be held to higher standards. If they can support Coughlin in death, then it isn’t much to ask for support of the victim.

Some of these skaters knew John in a certain way. They wanted to celebrate and pay tribute to the John they knew. I dont think alot of these skaters knew the details of the allegations. There were probably some skaters who knew and believed in John's innocence. I dont think they meant any disrespect to the accusers or survivors. This is where a dialogue comes in.

You cant force a perspective on people. You have to have a dialogue otherwise it becomes a pissing match. And when its on social media it get worse and you go nowhere.

 

[mag]

It doesn't make it any better or less wrong, that people in "power and privileged" being falsely accused are much less common. When it's false it is false, and it is a mob mentality, privileged or not.

However, my whole point was that people kiiling themselves over such accusations, doesn't equal "found guilty".

And what about all the anguish and probably suicides that come from abuse? When the number abused people who are not believed, harassed, re victimized etc drastically falls to even twice the number of false accusations the cause more than discomfort and inconvenience I will start to worry about false accusations.