John Coughlin has died

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His name was dragged through the mud in the court of public opinion but it seems that people who knew him best believe he’s innocent. I believe them, though it doesn’t seem to be a popular opinion on this forum. I’m willing to give John benefit of the doubt.
RIP John.

With no disrespect to John, may he RIP, I should note that many of those who know an individual best are going to believe that individual innocent should that individual be charged with something, particularly of a sexual nature. Sure, there are individuals who are scum, and who are reviled, and those who know such individuals may be quick to judge them harshly and happy to see them go to prison. But if an individual accused of sexual misconduct is a respected community member or loved father/brother/husband, those who know that individual will likely have a hard time accepting that the allegations are true.

Not speaking about John, but many individuals who commit sexual harassment are seemingly nice and upstanding.
 
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I believe that the accused has a right to anonymity while the investigation is taking place. And yes, when multiple people who knew John well say good things about him, I believe them.

It's the lesser of two evils. These investigations can take years to complete properly. All it takes is ONE case where it's eventually discovered that the alleged perpetrator inflicted harm on a series of victims while being investigated over a period for there to be profound outcry from the public. It would be deemed horrific and unacceptable that the public (including parents) was not warned that this person could possibly be dangerous...and as a result, many more victims were affected. That needs to happen only once in a reasonably high profile case for us to get to where we are today.

Sadly, that means the names of the innocent until proven guilty are revealed, shared and discussed. And will continue to be.

As for someone's friends saying good things about him, what else would you expect? They only know what they saw for themselves. Can draw no conclusions about his innocence since most of us are not equipped to size someone up as a likely abuser. And, as it goes, abusers are just as likely if not more to be warm, charming and friendly than creepy.
 
I do commend TSl for giving us, until someone else comes with better reporting, the best description of the inner workings of Safesport we have to date.

True and that's fine and good, except for the rambling and random way it was handled by Dave and his guest. There were also a lot of things said on that recent episode which only added to confusion and opened up new questions, e.g, how was/whether SafeSport able to determine that there is a pattern of behavior dating back 20 years, and how do they come to the conclusion that they have reliable corroborating evidence, particularly regarding incidents and events witnessed/ experienced/ recalled from a different time?

No matter how helpful DL's guest was trying to be, some of the conversation drifted into different areas that don't appear to be directly related to the allegation(s) against John Coughlin. Also, I wonder whether SafeSport approved of this guest presenting the information that she did about a case still under investigation (even though she tried to be circumspect on specifics). There was too much lumping in of tangential topics with her own personal topics and innuendo. I think it was inappropriate to make comparisons to convicted abusers, and especially to bring up Gordeeva & Grinkov in a disparaging way! That G&G fell in love in the 1980s while there was a four-year age difference between them and Katia was 16, has no specific bearing on any allegation being investigated by SafeSport in 2018-2019, nor on anything to do with John's death.

The overriding feeling I got from the latest TSL episode is that DL is concerned about defending the fact that he tweeted, posted and discussed the matter involving John Coughlin, without benefit of having any conclusive information. DL seems to thrive on dishing about sensationalist happenings (e.g., Gracie Gold's family situation at a time when she was struggling in her career). While anyone who feels victimized or who has been harmed in some way should be encouraged to speak out to ensure their safety and protection, the accused should not automatically be condemned and treated like a pariah either. As others have mentioned, there should be mechanisms in place serving as a safety net for all parties, in an effort to hopefully prevent any further avoidable situations occurring, especially a tragedy such as this. No matter what happened, all parties involved should be allowed the opportunity for help and for healing, for understanding and for mental health evaluation and counseling, so that no one has to struggle on their own reconnaissance with gossip swirling around.

DL and his guest brnging up the 'toxic culture' of figure skating, I think is a worthwhile topic for a separate discussion, but DL would need to stop being defensive and rambling in his coverage. ETA: But then again, on second thought, DL is unlikely to be the right host to effectively address this topic since he himself appears to feed off of and contribute to the 'toxic culture' he presumes to decry. I also hope that if DL is so concerned about underage female skaters being mistreated, he will recognize that his own petty mocking and dismissive snarking toward skaters has been inappropriate rather than helpful or constructive, particularly toward young skaters like Starr Andrews (with her mother thrown in as well and accused of unproven/ misrepresented hearsay during the TSL Asian Open episode of last year).

I have to add that I despise the fact Dave Lease had the nerve to read out Dalilah Sappenfield's fb post in such a hateful, superior and disapproving tone. There is no reason for Lease, of all people, to get on a high horse about what a heartbroken friend of John Coughlin's has the right to express in her own way and in her own words.
 
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Dave doesn't care. He's got his folks who will defend him to the death and go armed to the teeth against anyone who says otherwise. He's a great advocate for the abused, you know, with all the outright horrid things he's said about skaters, a lot of them (as aftershocks said) underage girls who should not be dealing with a jerk like him mocking them in a public forum. I doubt this will cause him to be more circumspect. He's just going to double down on coming across as some hero. Can't you tell I cannot stand him?
 
Dave doesn't care. He's got his folks who will defend him to the death and go armed to the teeth against anyone who says otherwise. He's a great advocate for the abused, you know, with all the outright horrid things he's said about skaters, a lot of them (as aftershocks said) underage girls who should not be dealing with a jerk like him mocking them in a public forum. I doubt this will cause him to be more circumspect. He's just going to double down on coming across as some hero. Can't you tell I cannot stand him?

Agreed.
 
Dave doesn't care. He's got his folks who will defend him to the death and go armed to the teeth against anyone who says otherwise. He's a great advocate for the abused, you know, with all the outright horrid things he's said about skaters, a lot of them (as aftershocks said) underage girls who should not be dealing with a jerk like him mocking them in a public forum. I doubt this will cause him to be more circumspect. He's just going to double down on coming across as some hero. Can't you tell I cannot stand him?

All other issues aside. TSL serves to glamorourise bullying and meaness in figure skating. The example he sets for the sport is dreadful.

This is a very complex and sensitive issue and the stakes are high for everyone. TSL should not be allowed a mile near it.

I’m not saying that this issue shouldn’t be discussed etc etc. But not by TSL - everyone involved deserves better than that. It’s a topic that needs to be handled with sensitivity and care.
 
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It's the lesser of two evils. These investigations can take years to complete properly. All it takes is ONE case where it's eventually discovered that the alleged perpetrator inflicted harm on a series of victims while being investigated over a period for there to be profound outcry from the public. It would be deemed horrific and unacceptable that the public (including parents) was not warned that this person could possibly be dangerous...and as a result, many more victims were affected. That needs to happen only once in a reasonably high profile case for us to get to where we are today.

Sadly, that means the names of the innocent until proven guilty are revealed, shared and discussed. And will continue to be.

As for someone's friends saying good things about him, what else would you expect? They only know what they saw for themselves. Can draw no conclusions about his innocence since most of us are not equipped to size someone up as a likely abuser. And, as it goes, abusers are just as likely if not more to be warm, charming and friendly than creepy.

I don't think other high profile cases where abuse was proven should be used as guidelines to handle every situation and allegation. There are all kinds of dangers involved when the specifics of individual cases are unknown, and assumptions are thrown around. Someone being investigated should not be pilloried in the absence of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence. Protection for all parties involved in such allegations should be made a priority. There should be a way for an accused person to be removed from a situation/ environment without a hue and cry being blasted against the person. Full investigation and corroboration of allegations is vital, while mechanisms should also be in place to secure the mental well-being and safety of everyone directly involved on both sides.

Nothing of a specific, detailed nature has been released, therefore we have no knowledge of what John Coughlin was accused of, so it's inappropriate to speculate and to assume he was 'a dangerous threat', as if you have some direct, proven knowledge of specific misconduct on his part. I find some of your phraseology to be irresponsible and inflammatory, without conclusive evidence being available as to the specific charges and proof against John Coughlin. This is a tragedy on all sides. Your last sentence, "abusers are just as likely if not more to be warm, charming and friendly than creepy," is also inappropriate in directly referencing the specific allegations in this case that none of us are privy to.

Please can we allow authorities to follow these allegations to a conclusion, and in the interim to offer our support and caring to all who have been affected by this terribly sad, painful, and difficult series of events. Speculation and damning language is harmful for everyone involved. Public hue and cry and inflammatory assumptions are not conducive to encouraging any victim of any kind of abuse to come forward, for fear of becoming embroiled in a circus-like atmosphere.
 
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In looking closely at the news and FB reports, I have had a thought after letting this sink in for a little while.

Dalilah referenced him leaving a note for her. Often there are multiple notes and letters written. By her FB post, it seems obvious that is was not a confessional note.

Would Safe Sport investigate allegations that do not directly involve children?

An example would be having an affair(s) with a parent(s) or coach(es); bullying parents or coaches; screaming at parents or coaches or threatening parents or coaches to do something for the marks (demands to pressure skaters to be thin, etc)?
 
TSL is the poster child of a very nasty aspect of the sport as well.

Actually, while this is true, unfortunately TSL reflects and mirrors a very nasty aspect of life. Judgements of everything with subsequent gossip and opinions (think TMZ or Entertainment publications)(think social media) from strangers is ubiquitous. Sports, Politics, Entertainment - anything 'public' - is subject to people's thoughts and opinions for the world to see.

I guess, my point is that discretion and privacy are now difficult to achieve; and snarky, nasty, gossipy words permeate cyberspace and have tangible consequences on people's lives.
 
All other issues aside. TSL serves to glamorourise bullying and meaness in figure skating. The example he sets for the sport is dreadful.

This is a very complex and sensitive issue and the stakes are high for everyone. TSL should not be allowed a mile near it.

I’m not saying that this issue shouldn’t be discussed etc etc. But not by TSL - everyone involved deserves better than that. It’s a topic that needs to be handled with sensitivity and care.

Its about time they pulled the plug on TSL!!, surely this case MUST do it
 
TSL doesn’t have thing to do with SafeSport. You upset with the victims for coming forward. You blame them, you blame SafeSport for try to take action. You blame Christine Brennan for writing article. You blame TSL because you hate them but are obsessively seeking them out. Maybe you should blame yourselves for own hypocrisy. The gymnastics man was bad man, but this one should been protected. Because why? Oh. You liked him. He nice. What if it was your child? How would you like a person to be protected. You all innocent until proven guilty. What about victims? You already judged them to be lies. Hypocrites. Maybe we let the gymnastics man go free because those people shouldn’t have reported it because he Nice when you met him for 5 minutes at gymnastic event. Gross.
 
I don't think other high profile cases where abuse was proven should be used as guidelines to handle every situation and allegation. There are all kinds of dangers involved when the specifics of individual cases are unknown, and assumptions are thrown around. Someone being investigated should not be pilloried in the absence of thorough investigation and conclusive evidence. Protection for all parties involved in such allegations should be made a priority. There should be a way for an accused person to be removed from a situation/ environment without a hue and cry being blast against the person. Full investigation and corroboration of allegations is vital, while mechanisms should also be in place to secure the mental well-being and safety of everyone directly involved on both sides.

Nothing of a specific, detailed nature has been released, therefore we have no knowledge of what John Coughlin was accused of, so it's inappropriate to speculate and to assume he was 'a dangerous threat', as if you have some direct, proven knowledge of specific misconduct on his part. I find some of your phraseology to be irresponsible and inflammatory, without conclusive evidence being available as to the specific charges and proof against John Coughlin. This is a tragedy on all sides. Your last sentence, "abusers are just as likely if not more to be warm, charming and friendly than creepy," is also inappropriate in directly referencing the specific allegations in this case that none of us are privy to.

Please can we allow authorities to follow these allegations to a conclusion, and in the interim to offer our support and caring to all who have been affected by this terribly sad, painful, and difficult series of events. Speculation and damning language is harmful for everyone involved. Public hue and cry and inflammatory assumptions are not conducive to encouraging any victim of any kind of abuse to come forward, for fear of becoming embroiled in a circus-like atmosphere.
Completely agree with this whole post. It sums up exactly how I feel and what I’ve been trying to express here, but less effectively (English isn’t my first language). It’s possible to show compassion to BOTH sides in this very sensitive situation. It’s possible to have protection and anonymity for BOTH sides. Yes, the accuser deserves to be heard and to have her/his claims investigated. But we have a situation here where a young man took his own life. It was because he had his livelihood and reputation stripped away in a blink of an eye. To me he’s innocent until proven guilty. Period. On SafeSport it says John Coughlin was being investigated for allegations of misconduct. It does not say “sexual misconduct”. Where did the word “sexual” come from? Why is it being thrown around as if it’s a proven fact? So many in the skating community are saying good things about John. Why shouldn’t I believe them? These people actually knew him. IMO, Dave Lease talking about this case so soon after John’s death is disrespectful to John’s friends and loved ones. Looks like TSL doing damage control.
 
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TSL doesn’t have thing to do with SafeSport. You upset with the victims for coming forward. You blame them, you blame SafeSport for try to take action. You blame Christine Brennan for writing article. You blame TSL because you hate them but are obsessively seeking them out. Maybe you should blame yourselves for own hypocrisy. The gymnastics man was bad man, but this one should been protected. Because why? Oh. You liked him. He nice. What if it was your child? How would you like a person to be protected. You all innocent until proven guilty. What about victims? You already judged them to be lies. Hypocrites. Maybe we let the gymnastics man go free because those people shouldn’t have reported it because he Nice when you met him for 5 minutes at gymnastic event. Gross.
Another one. Who here is blaming the accusers? Who is blaming SafeSport for investigating the complaint? Nobody. Is it really so hard to respond to what actually being said and discussed and not put false statements into people's mouth just to sound more dramatic?
 
Another one. Who here is blaming the accusers? Who is blaming SafeSport for investigating the complaint? Nobody. Is it really so hard to respond to what actually being said and discussed and not put false statements into people's mouth just to sound more dramatic?
I noticed that a couple of posters have been consistently doing just that. Insinuations, word-twisting, false statements, etc. NOBODY is blaming the accusers and insisting that the rights of the potential victims should not be protected. Every single poster understands the dangers of abuse, especially in situation where children and power are involved. Telling people that are expressing their thoughts on the process that they are essentially promoting abuse (do you want your children to be abused?) is beyond the pale. I don't know what it is. Need to add fuel to a fire? Feeling superior? Need for drama? Whatever it is, I wish they wouldn't. Out of respect for everyone involved.
 
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Another one. Who here is blaming the accusers? Who is blaming SafeSport for investigating the complaint? Nobody. Is it really so hard to respond to what actually being said and discussed and not put false statements into people's mouth just to sound more dramatic?
I noticed that a couple of posters have been consistently doing just that. Insinuations, word-twisting, false statements, etc. NOBODY is blaming the accusers and insisting that the rights of the potential victims should not be protected. Using a horrendous situation to exercise their self-righteous indignation is awful. I think every single person understands the dangers of abuse, especially in the situation where children and power are involved. Telling people that are expressing their thoughts on the process that they are essentially promoting abuse (do you want your children to be abused?) is beyond the pale. I don't know what it is. Need to add fuel to a fire? Feeling superior? Need for drama? Honestly, disgusting.
There have been a number of posts in both threads that have accused people of having blood on their hands, that this was a witch hunt, and a conspiracy to damage John.
For example:
It convinces me a lot that my suspicions of what has gone here are correct- that there has been a collusion between a witness or complainant (who should have been under the same code of confidentiality as Coughlin) and the press, and that together they have been running an unjust campaign against John Coughlin, with the intent of bolstering their case by soliciting further complaints against him
 
Telling people that are expressing their thoughts on the process that they are essentially promoting abuse (do you want your children to be abused?) is beyond the pale.

This is not accurate. Some forum members noted that if the anonymity of the accused is maintained in cases such as this -- as others have recommended -- it may put children at risk during the period of investigation. They are not saying that discussing the process in general is "promoting abuse."

Also, if you personally want to show respect for the deceased, you should take these comments to the other thread, where the procedural issues are being discussed: Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

This is the thread for condolences.
 
There have been a number of posts in both threads that have accused people of having blood on their hands, that this was a witch hunt, and a conspiracy to damage John.
For example:
Well that for me falls in the same category as accusing those questioning the process of promoting abuse. I was speaking about a couple of individuals that have been consistently responding to reasonable posts with self-righteous and false statement.
 
I honestly did not read the other thread from start to finish, I was only talking about this one. Is this quote from this thread? I thought I read the whole thing carefully and everything that was written was respectful and thoughtful. So all these accusations of victim-shaming directed at everyone in general are nothing more but a deliberate attempt to turn a constructive discussion into an ugly fight. Why this is attempted, I don't understand.
 
This is not accurate. Some forum members noted that if the anonymity of the accused is maintained in cases such as this -- as others have recommended -- it may put children at risk during the period of investigation.

Also, if you personally want to show respect for the deceased, you should take these comments to the other thread, where the procedural issues are being discussed: Coughlin's Safe Sport Status Changed to Interim Suspension

This is the thread for condolences.
Of course. And comments like these were part of a normal and respectful exchange of opinions. Suggesting to keep the name of the accused hidden until they are proven guilty maybe not the best idea, but in no way this is equal to victim-shaming or blaming SafeSport for conducting an investigation. Isn't it obvious?
 
What a sad sad situation. Everyone has lost here - John, friends, family, coach accusers and their families, Brennan, TSL, Safesport. Such pain and anger fueling the desire to blame someone, anyone!

Mervin Tran has been the most reasoned and compassionate responder to all of this!

I have to leave this topic, too many triggers here. Feel bad for everyone in this.
 
It's been over 24 hours and all I can type at this time is that my heart goes out to all those who knew John personally, at any level, and are grieving his untimely death like I am. This is the link to the GFM that was set up last night to help John's sister and father with his funeral expenses: https://www.gofundme.com/john-coughlin-funeral-services

Nate Bartholomay reached out to John in early January and shared their exchange of text messages in the second photo: https://www.instagram.com/p/BsztAunnqeD/
 
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Would Safe Sport investigate allegations that do not directly involve children?

An example would be having an affair(s) with a parent(s) or coach(es); bullying parents or coaches; screaming at parents or coaches or threatening parents or coaches to do something for the marks (demands to pressure skaters to be thin, etc)?
My understanding is yes. And within skating, the PSA also receives complaints of and investigates violations of its code of ethics.
 
I honestly did not read the other thread from start to finish, I was only talking about this one. Is this quote from this thread? I thought I read the whole thing carefully and everything that was written was respectful and thoughtful. So all these accusations of victim-shaming directed at everyone in general are nothing more but a deliberate attempt to turn a constructive discussion into an ugly fight. Why this is attempted, I don't understand.
No it's from another thread, but it was just an example of the sort of things that have been said. I think there is a lot of sensitivity around this issue, understandably, and that some of the suggestions that the process should have remained secret until complete strike others as an attempt to silence victims.
 
Of course. And comments like these were part of a normal and respectful exchange of opinions. Suggesting to keep the name of the accused hidden until they are proven guilty maybe not the best idea, but in no way this is equal to victim-shaming or blaming SafeSport for conducting an investigation. Isn't it obvious?

Moved my response to the other thread.
 
OMG, I just read the news on my browser and had to come here to extend my condolences to John & his family & friends. *tears*

I'll never forget his power & beauty on the ice with his partners, memorable routines, so glad I got to see him skate in person at Skate America. Such a lovely person, truly sad, heartbreaking....

"blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
 
This is all incredibly sad and heartbreaking for every single person involved. I just want to send hugs to everyone, fans, friends, family, and try to share the pain in my small little way.
I am so very sorry for all involved in dealing with this seemingly unresolvable situation - I fear that there will never really be full closure.
 
TSL doesn’t have thing to do with SafeSport. You upset with the victims for coming forward. You blame them, you blame SafeSport for try to take action. You blame Christine Brennan for writing article. You blame TSL because you hate them but are obsessively seeking them out. Maybe you should blame yourselves for own hypocrisy. The gymnastics man was bad man, but this one should been protected. Because why? Oh. You liked him. He nice. What if it was your child? How would you like a person to be protected. You all innocent until proven guilty. What about victims? You already judged them to be lies. Hypocrites. Maybe we let the gymnastics man go free because those people shouldn’t have reported it because he Nice when you met him for 5 minutes at gymnastic event. Gross.

Your post is illogical and completely exaggerated, which only adds to the problem, and solves nothing. The person who brought forth an allegation is hopefully being helped to know that what has happened to John Coughlin is not their fault. Understanding and healing are what is needed. But that will not happen in an atmosphere of jumping to conclusions and equating every single instance of alleged inappropriate behavior with every instance of proven horrific behavior that went overlooked and unreported for years.

... suggestions that the process should have remained secret until complete...

The point for me is that this type of allegation which is still under investigation should not be carelessly bandied about on social media, with rampant speculation and assumptions being made that are devoid of factual information. Care should be taken for both parties involved to feel safe, and for their mental health needs to be fully addressed during the ongoing process of investigation.
 
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