Michelle Kwan (Threads Merged)

Simone411 said:
I know that Michelle would never even consider that and I realize how old she is. But at this very moment, she is 100 percent better with her artistic and technical abilities than most of our USA Ladies.
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Thats not saying much....
 
CaliSteve said:
Thats not saying much....
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Well if you can come up with more that needs to said, by all means please contribute. Don't just stop there and end it. Is that an insult regarding the USA Ladies or an insult regarding Michelle? If you would have read my other post after that, you would have seen that I stated I do give a lot of credit to some of the US Ladies because they work hard and work long hours at their technique and artistry. From what I've seen, Bradie is improving so much especially with her artistry. I really like her a lot.
 
I think that's her Corkscrew spin, which is of course now a lay back
 
Simone411 said:
Well if you can come up with more that needs to said, by all means please contribute. Don't just stop there and end it. Is that an insult regarding the USA Ladies or an insult regarding Michelle? If you would have read my other post after that, you would have seen that I stated I do give a lot of credit to some of the US Ladies because they work hard and work long hours at their technique and artistry. From what I've seen, Bradie is improving so much especially with her artistry. I really like her a lot.
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My comment was shade and referring to the current state of our US Ladies. I like Bradie and Mariah, but they are not currently World Medal contenders. I hopeful they can get us three spots next year. I do think they are improving but who after them? The only one I can think of is Alyssa Liu who wont be eligible for a few years.
 
Sylvia said:
ETA that Jordan C. has posted his video with his own message here: https://www.instagram.com/p/Br5k7WInW8j/
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Jordan Cowan's videos are amazing. I'm glad to see that he enjoyed spending time with the Kwans at East-West Palace. It's wonderful seeing these clips of Michelle skating and looking good. It makes me think about the fact that sometimes out of adversity good things arise. Michelle is taking this time to reconnect with her immediate family, her skating family, and with her dear, long-held friends and fans. She's also apparently reconnecting with aspects of her spirit through her love of skating. Had Hillary Clinton won the 2016 election, I doubt that MK would necessarily be spending as much time on the ice and reconnecting with the skating world as she finds herself doing these days.

Indeed, I'm beginning to think it's also a blessing in disguise for Hillary too, not to have become U.S. president. For one thing, in many quarters, Hillary was viciously not wanted... (for the rest, I'll take my further thoughts to PI).

Here are more eye-opening clips on Jordan Cowan's Instagram. He's been traveling all over working on projects with skaters and friends:
https://www.instagram.com/oniceperspectives/?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1c641nmz6khul

In somewhat related news from back in September 2017, Tara L posted an Instagram pic of herself with Michelle's sister Karen, and two mutual friends. Apparently Tara and Karen were bridesmaids at the wedding of a mutual friend. The skating world is small indeed!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYgTY3yAQAB/?hl=en&taken-by=taralipinski
 
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Sylvia said:
^^^ I think Michelle skated at the Santa Monica rink 5 days ago, based on Tai Babilonia's photo with her and Randy G.: https://www.instagram.com/p/Br1Pkl4nhDb/
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These recent MK skating clips and sightings has made me very curious about whether or not there is some planned public event in the works. Dick Button does turn 90 this coming year. :shuffle:
 
CaliSteve said:
... they [Bradie, Mariah] are not currently World Medal contenders.
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But that's mostly because the ladies division worldwide has such freakin' tremendous depth (c/o Russia, Japan, South Korea) and U.S. ladies, no matter their talent, don't have effective fed political-backing rep, which is a huge factor in trying to rebuild competitive dominance. U.S. ladies rep/dominance was lost/ frittered away somewhere post MK/Cohen era, SLC scandal, IJS/CoP, loss of economic leverage re U.S. network contracts with the ISU, and 2003 World Skating Federation fiasco.
 
Respectfully disagree, @aftershocks. I love Mariah and appreciate Bradie, but the tech content, jump rotations, consistency, and programs haven’t been at an elite level. These things hold them back any more than the lack of USA political prowess.

Gracie Gold, when she was at her best, was deservedly pulling down elite PCS. The judges were gagging for her to win 2016 Worlds.
 
All the skaters are working hard. Maybe different situation for American vs Russian, Japanese, Korean skaters. Funding, jobs, schooling.
 
I would love it if she could film herself doing the 2006 Bells program full out, even with just doubles or singles.
 
skatingfan5 said:
These recent MK skating clips and sightings has made me very curious about whether or not there is some planned public event in the works. Dick Button does turn 90 this coming year. :shuffle:
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I did find it interesting that in her Instagram post, Michelle said that her performing days are “more or less” behind her...
 
alchemy void said:
Respectfully disagree, @aftershocks. I love Mariah and appreciate Bradie, but the tech content, jump rotations, consistency, and programs haven’t been at an elite level. These things hold them back any more than the lack of USA political prowess.

Gracie Gold, when she was at her best, was deservedly pulling down elite PCS. The judges were gagging for her to win 2016 Worlds.
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Very true re Gracie! And I'm not saying U.S. ladies have been consistent or as determined and fearless as they've needed to be to fully realize their talent. But to say they absolutely do not have the tech content/ ability, athleticism and artistry to contend is inaccurate. They simply have not delivered consistently, for a variety of reasons. Re "pulling down PCS," political rep helps as we've seen in the cases of so many Russian ladies prematurely gifted with wowza PCS scores!

Notice that I mentioned a number of milestone political moments that have some bearing on the political rep backing needed to be perceived as a top contender. Add in poor decisionmaking by U.S. fed in any number of instances, and the current state of affairs is understandable. So once again, the fact that U.S. ladies have not delivered the way they should does not mean they don't have the tech content and full rotational ability to do the job.

Part of the problem for U.S. ladies IMHO, is generalized thumbs-down negative perceptions such as you are offering, in addition to grandiose expectations, premature over-hype, and MK-era backlash. I don't see things changing anytime soon with the current U.S. fed crew in charge.

IMHO, Sofia Samodurova, while she's a nice, so far consistent and entertaining skater, she's not more talented than Bradie or Mariah or Courtney. But she is Russian with legendary Mishin as her coach, and the ability to strut her stuff consistently. Thereby more rep in only her senior debut. U.S. ladies have to battle negative perceptions, self-doubt, and lack of effective political backing, as well as the Russian and Japanese deep fields. When Maria Sotskova, Anna Pogorilaya, and Elena Radionova were competing fairly well and winning medals, they were never actually more talented than U.S. ladies either. They may have performed more consistently on occasion, but they had flaws which were often overlooked. Add in another new Russian lady up-and-comer, Konstantinova -- she's very pretty, but workmanlike and boring IMO, which doesn't prevent her from being perceived as a top contender over U.S. ladies.

I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to cry me a river. Just relax the OTT dissing of U.S. ladies. And another thing to relax over is the prospect of up-and-coming tech-talented juniors being able to change anything for U.S. ladies on a dime.
 
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When the next batch of Russian juniors come up to contend with Japanese and South Korean superstars, it will become that much harder for any U.S. lady to make a dent. Right now, I don't see any dominant superstars on the level of Michelle Kwan on the U.S. horizon, plus this is a different skating era altogether. It's premature to anoint Cui and Liu, or anyone else.

On the international front, it's possible one or more of the new Russian juniors might manage to thwart puberty and Eteri-training debilities and limitations to carve out a more significant and long-lasting career. Right now, Japanese and Russian ladies could put on their own top-notch mini-Worlds competition all by themselves. To me this means that talented U.S. ladies have to be way more than just talented. They have to work harder than ever to even get recognized as worthy of contending for top five.

Or else a lucky phenom with nerves of steel needs to rise like a phoenix with invincible powers. That kind of stuff rarely happens, not even in fairy tales. There was Gracie Gold of course, but some mismanagement decisions and misrecognition of how to craft her powers in conjunction with her actual personality, plus bad luck and personal difficulties impacted the course of her career.

ETA:
I definitely agree U.S. ladies have not been performing consistently to their ability. So I'm not arguing that their performance level always warrants praise, but the talent level doesn't deserve to be scorned or dismissed. And it's been proven that political rep and buzz backed up by consistent performances are factors in success (and rise in PCS).
 
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I love all Russian skaters, but no promise the young juniors will be as successful as you’re say. I saw a photo of them next to Medvedeva, and one thing for certain: they won’t remain tiny forever. Medvedeva a d Zagitova didn’t. They shine now.
 
aftershocks said:
Very true re Gracie! And I'm not saying U.S. ladies have been consistent or as determined and fearless as they've needed to be to fully realize their talent. But to say they absolutely do not have the tech content/ ability, athleticism and artistry to contend is inaccurate. They simply have not delivered consistently, for a variety of reasons. Re "pulling down PCS," political rep helps as we've seen in the cases of so many Russian ladies prematurely gifted with wowza PCS scores!

Notice that I mentioned a number of milestone political moments that have some bearing on the political rep backing needed to be perceived as a top contender. Add in poor decisionmaking by U.S. fed in any number of instances, and the current state of affairs is understandable. So once again, the fact that U.S. ladies have not delivered the way they should does not mean they don't have the tech content and full rotational ability to do the job.

Part of the problem for U.S. ladies IMHO, is generalized thumbs-down negative perceptions such as you are offering, in addition to grandiose expectations, premature over-hype, and MK-era backlash. I don't see things changing anytime soon with the current U.S. fed crew in charge.

IMHO, Sofia Samodurova, while she's a nice, so far consistent and entertaining skater, she's not more talented than Bradie or Mariah or Courtney. But she is Russian with legendary Mishin as her coach, and the ability to strut her stuff consistently. Thereby more rep in only her senior debut. U.S. ladies have to battle negative perceptions, self-doubt, and lack of effective political backing, as well as the Russian and Japanese deep fields. When Maria Sotskova, Anna Pogorilaya, and Elena Radionova were competing fairly well and winning medals, they were never actually more talented than U.S. ladies either. They may have performed more consistently on occasion, but they had flaws which were often overlooked. Add in another new Russian lady up-and-comer, Konstantinova -- she's very pretty, but workmanlike and boring IMO, which doesn't prevent her from being perceived as a top contender over U.S. ladies.

I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to cry me a river. Just relax the OTT dissing of U.S. ladies. And another thing to relax over is the prospect of up-and-coming tech-talented juniors being able to change anything for U.S. ladies on a dime.
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I definitely get what you're saying but I feel like regardless of the federation, skaters have to carve out their own path. A less talented skater who goes out and nails harder content consistently is much easier to boost PCS-wise next to an overall more talented skater who rarely puts together two clean programs. It's hard for that kind of skater to ever get a foothold in the standings in the way a consistent skater can because they can't get any momentum going. Momentum is key in this sport and the US women seem to suck at gaining real momentum.

For the most part the talent and skill level of the US women isn't on par with other countries either. That goes back to state-funded training/ice time/etc. in other countries versus the US. Most of us still cross our fingers or clench our butts when the US women go for a 3-3, whereas skaters from the power countries can do a 3-3 (or several 3-3s) in their sleep. The fact that you can count the number of US senior women with consistent 3-3s harder than a 3T-3T on one hand is a testament to that.

Korea has a weak federation. Even during Yuna's time the Korean federation held no sway or power; however, Yuna's talent and ability rose beyond the politics and the judges had no choice but to give her her due. The US needs an undeniable talent like that.

As of now, there is no one that fits that bill. There's been a lot of talent in the US since Michelle's exit but there's always been something missing. Bradie has the content (and consistency for the most part) but she lacks that little something extra "it" factor/sparkle; Mariah has the content and "it" factor/sparkle in spades but lacks the consistency; same thing for Gracie--content and sparkle but lacked consistency; Ashley, Karen and Mirai had the "it" factor/sparkle in spades but lacks the content/consistency. For the US women something is always missing...
 
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aftershocks said:
But that's mostly because the ladies division worldwide has such freakin' tremendous depth (c/o Russia, Japan, South Korea) and U.S. ladies, no matter their talent, don't have effective fed political-backing rep, which is a huge factor in trying to rebuild competitive dominance. U.S. ladies rep/dominance was lost/ frittered away somewhere post MK/Cohen era, SLC scandal, IJS/CoP, loss of economic leverage re U.S. network contracts with the ISU, and 2003 World Skating Federation fiasco.
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I agree for the most part, as I put most of the blame on our Federation's lack of a strategic plan in developing skaters. When we see a skater with potential they tend to hype them up and push them like they did with Gracie and now with Alysa. I also think coaches need to be coached in developing skaters.
 
kwanatic said:
I definitely get what you're saying but I feel like regardless of the federation, skaters have to carve out their own path. A less talented skater who goes out and nails harder content consistently is much easier to boost PCS-wise next to an overall more talented skater who rarely puts together two clean programs. It's hard for that kind of skater to ever get a foothold in the standings in the way a consistent skater can because they can't get any momentum going. Momentum is key in this sport and the US women seem to suck at gaining real momentum.

For the most part the talent and skill level of the US women isn't on par with other countries either. That goes back to state-funded training/ice time/etc. in other countries versus the US. Most of us still cross our fingers or clench our butts when the US women go for a 3-3, whereas skaters from the power countries can do a 3-3 (or several 3-3s) in their sleep. The fact that you can count the number of US senior women with consistent 3-3s harder than a 3T-3T on one hand is a testament to that.

Korea has a weak federation. Even during Yuna's time the Korean federation held no sway or power; however, Yuna's talent and ability rose beyond the politics and the judges had no choice but to give her her due. The US needs an undeniable talent like that.

As of now, there is no one that fits that bill. There's been a lot of talent in the US since Michelle's exit but there's always been something missing. Bradie has the content (and consistency for the most part) but she lacks that little something extra "it" factor/sparkle; Mariah has the content and "it" factor/sparkle in spades but lacks the consistency; same thing for Gracie--content and sparkle but lacked consistency; Ashley, Karen and Mirai had the "it" factor/sparkle in spades but lacks the content/consistency. For the US women something is always missing...
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Yup! In the US a skater needs to be self directed and figure out their own trajectory. That's fine, but they also need guidance and overall management. For the most part, they don't have that. That's the main problem.
 
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