The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[thvu]

Out of interest, how far off the maximum free dance score was P/C?

This may need double checking, but it should be 137.84 as the new Free Dance max score. 60 for PCS and 77.84 for TES.

Max GOE went from 19.8 last season to 32.01 this season. A massive increase to the influence of GOE over the total score.

 

[Laney]

I'm in love with the new FD of Gabriella and Guillaume. I was not sure about the music when it was announced but WOW what a FD!!! I can't tell how grateful I am that I was able to see it live. For me, they're a class of their own. The fluidity and smoothness, the speed... I'll re-watch it thousand times and I'm sure I'll never get bored. They touch my Soul no others are able to do so. Thank you, Gabriella and Guillaume

 

[starrynight]

Will the scores have to stall for the rest of the quad or do you think that we will see ongoing changes to the scoring system that will allow for scores to increase?

As we have discussed, I do think that changes need to be made to the scoring system to calibrate the GOE with the levels. BUT that will probably not be an issue next season as the RD has no set pattern so there's no we will see the base and level 1 patterns like this season.

However, I do like the idea of the scoring staying static so we all know from season to season what the scores mean. It's just a bit odd the way each season the scores for everyone just go up and up because of the maximum scores keep increasing. You spend the whole grand prix wondering what everyone's scores actually mean.

P.S Wouldn't be a bad idea to reopen the P/C fan thread so this thread can remain a general ice dance discussion.

 

[Colonel Green]

The scoring system is never completely static, but I don't think you'll see anything that will majorly shift the maximum score.

 

[starrynight]

The scoring system is never completely static, but I don't think you'll see anything that will majorly shift the maximum score.

The reason I ask is that you have P/C sitting 5 points off the maximum on their season debut in 2018 and the Olympics aren't until 2022. In seasons past, the judges loved giving out monster scores for wow factor at the big events and then increasing the scores each season, so I'm not sure where it's going to go if they want to give P/C a big points bump at Euros and then Worlds and have them keep breaking world records each season.

 

[VGThuy]

Now that we’ve seen Papadakis/Cizeron, I’m adding their FD on my favorites of the seasons list. I think only P/C and Gilles/Poirier have FDs that I’d consider art. I’d put P/C’s FD on a level above because I think G/P’s opening lift and Paul grabbing his ear to show Van Gogh cut off his ear are a bit much and detract from the rest of the program. That’s not unusual with G/P. It makes me question their taste level at times.

I love Guignard/Fabbri and Stepanova/Bukin’s programs as actual dances. I can watch their programs all season long.

Honorable mention goes to Fear/Gibson and they have the best slide element of the season. They give us something different and dancey this season but I think their disco is still too safe/clean and not disco enough. I prefer Gilles/Poirier’s disco SD though my fave version of it was their early summer comp performance of it as I felt G/P became too aware of the kitsch factor as the season progressed.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Now that we’ve seen Papadakis/Cizeron, I’m adding their FD on my favorites of the seasons list. I think only P/C and Gilles/Poirier have FD that I’d consider art. I’d put P/C’s FD on a level above because I think G/P’s opening lift and Paul grabbing his ear to show Van Gogh cut off his ear are a bit much and detract from the rest of the program. That’s not unusual with G/P. It makes me question their taste level at times.

I love Guignard/Fabbri and Stepanova/Bukin’s programs as actual dances. I can watch their programs all season long.

Honorable mention goes to Fear/Gibson and they have the best slide element of the season. They give us something different and dancey this season but I think their disco is still too safe/clean and not disco enough. I prefer Gilles/Poirier’s disco SD though my fave version of it was their early summer comp performance of it as I felt G/P became too aware of the kitsch factor as the season progressed.

I agree with every word you said. Complete agreement!!!!!!

 

[Bigbird]

P/C just flipped the switch on EVERYBODY. EVERYBODY. I got a feeling every coach after watching P/C today just threw their strategy out of the window. Each team has to find their own face and BRING it. I think ice dance is on the verge of being interesting again. Whoopee. Note to P2, bring it and stop being so nervous, get into your own bubble you can perform way better than you did today, as can S/D and H/B. P/C though. I am now officially an UBER. But I will endeavour my very best to play nice at all times.

 

[Dobre]

A few thoughts:

The potential for scores will also go up if the value for the elements & different levels is altered in order to provide more credit for levels reached. I hope there is a real possibility of that happening this quadrennium. (Yet another possibility would be that dance could exchange the +5 GOE and change it to a half point +3 system +1/2, +1, +1 1/2, +2, +2 1/2, +3 to better preserve the balance and still provide for a wider range of marking for execution). Even the addition or exchange of a single element or two could change the potential score. Scores dropped for juniors last year based on a change in the required elements for the season. They went up in seniors in 2016-17 because choreographic elements were added and a low base-value pattern sequence was replaced by a footwork sequence.

It really doesn't matter too much what the maximum score is. As long as we all recognize the changes and compare teams only within the same systems. (And as long as the junior teams have a shot at getting onto the GP with their SB scores. Based on what I've seen with scores this year, I'd guess the juniors have a better chance to earn top 24 scores this year than last season. Though still, it's obviously not a fair comparison between the junior & senior potential scores).

I would not underestimate what Weaver & Poje could do. They will not go into Worlds with nothing. They will get a head-to-head against Gilles & Poirier. And then a crack at Hubbell & Donohue at 4CCs. Maybe at Chock & Bates too. Nationals & Euros/4CCs will have an impact and set teams up for Worlds just as the GPF can help establish favorites among the current crowd. (I'm also curious whether these coming events will or will not separate the Russian teams more than they appear currently on paper). This is a long season. We'll see what happens.

I do think Gilles & Poirier skated tight here during the FD, and obviously they took a real hit on the footwork levels (partly, I'd think, because the double twizzle was funky?). But I don't think the performance was that notably different. More that the crowd response was notably different. Which is almost always going to happen when you skate at home vs. away from home. Anyway, this event was a disappointment for them, but it's also good experience; and Carol usually does a good job growing their programs and levels in response to the feedback they receive on the GP so I would expect their scores & programs to evolve in response to this event.

I didn't think Hawayek & Baker's performance here was notably different than at NHK. I just think scores at NHK ran high relative to most events on the GP.

 

[starrynight]

I think I'm going to need to make peace with the fact that P/C (unless something changes) will never be a diverse team. However they do their one style and one way of movement very very well and with a lot of speed.

I think many ice dance fans are used to the previous expectation that dance teams are expected to do different styles and images each year.

But really, at this point, I do wonder if P/C are going to be happy to just continue to shoot fish in a barrel with the one FD style? If you know you will always win, is there not the desire to create your own challenges by trying new styles and images?

 

[Peepsquick]

I think I'm going to need to make peace with the fact that P/C (unless something changes) will never be a diverse team. However they do their one style and one way of movement very very well and with a lot of speed.

I think many ice dance fans are used to the previous expectation that dance teams are expected to do different styles and images each year.

But really, at this point, I do wonder if P/C are going to be happy to just continue to shoot fish in a barrel with the one FD style? If you know you will always win, is there not the desire to create your own challenges by trying new styles and images?

What about if it were less about winning and more about feeling fullfillment at developping one's style to its peak potential? Styles evolve "organically" if you are allowed to dig deeper. I am sure P/C like winning but they also are artists and I do think that this is prevalent to anything else. I hope they stay motivated long enough to give us many more sensational experiences as viewers. Their signature is their perfect glide and if you think about it, it's what ice is supposed to bring forth: speed and flow. They will try to perfect that to the utmost of their abilities.
I am also looking forward to all the other styles that other teams will make theirs. Bigbird is right: let each team shine through their own style.

 

[forthewin]

Does anyone think P/C's SD doesn't feel like a proper Tango? Where is the raw passion and chemistry between man and woman? It just seems another their usual FD. Beautiful but no emotions.

 

[Bigbird]

P/Cs tango on multiple viewings, on a decent laptop is simply a masterpiece. Not every tango has to appeal to the hard aggressive side of tango. I find them and W/P quite engaging. After multiple viewings of S/Ks, I find it a bit grating and traditional but it suits THEM. I quite like the sophisticated aggression of H/D more but hey, taken as a whole this season's bag of goodies is quite tasty.

 

[Holy Headband]

Does anyone think P/C's SD doesn't feel like a proper Tango? Where is the raw passion and chemistry between man and woman? It just seems another their usual FD. Beautiful but no emotions.

It's not entirely untrue that P/C only have one setting, but luckily for them it falls within the range of moods tango can express. Tango does not necessarily have to have oodles of 'raw passion' in the sense of stomping, smouldering, head-jerking, etc. The dance can be precise and controlled, which P/C do very well, and even a little mellow. Plus, we've seen RDs with flamenco/hip hop/whatever undertones from other couples and that's perfectly within the rules (and brings some welcome variety to the field IMO).

 

[forthewin]

It's not entirely untrue that P/C only have one setting, but luckily for them it falls within the range of moods tango can express. Tango does not necessarily have to have oodles of 'raw passion' in the sense of stomping, smouldering, head-jerking, etc. The dance can be precise and controlled, which P/C do very well, and even a little mellow. Plus, we've seen RDs with flamenco/hip hop/whatever undertones from other couples and that's perfectly within the rules (and brings some welcome variety to the field IMO).

In other words, they can't really break out their comfort zone and people are happily giving them a pass. This mellow mushy stuff is a bit tiring now.

 

[cocotaffy]

P/C just flipped the switch on EVERYBODY.

I just love this and I might gonna steal it from you, if you don't mind of course

 

[twinklestar]

In other words, they can't really break out their comfort zone and people are happily giving them a pass. This mellow mushy stuff is a bit tiring now.

Of course they can. They're probably not encouraged to do so.

 

[forthewin]

Of course they can. They're probably not encouraged to do so.

Actions speak louder. You can't just say it without actually doing it. How do we suppose to know whether or not? And it's really disappointing that P/C are not just sticking to usual FD style but they do SD in a similar fashion. I just can't imagine any dancers can get away with it in the past. It's a bit sad this becomes the standard for world champions.

 

[annie_mg]

Actions speak louder. You can't just say it without actually doing it. How do we suppose to know whether or not? And it's really disappointing that P/C are not just sticking to usual FD style but they do SD in a similar fashion. I just can't imagine any dancers can get away with it in the past. It's a bit sad this becomes the standard for world champions.

What exactly do you expect them to do? Be less smooth? Have more shallow edges? For Guillaume to use his upper body less? For Gabriella to somehow change the way she emotes?

What do people want them to do? What counts as different? This is a genuine question...

 

[twinklestar]

Actions speak louder. You can't just say it without actually doing it. How do we suppose to know whether or not? And it's really disappointing that P/C are not just sticking to usual FD style but they do SD in a similar fashion. I just can't imagine any dancers can get away with it in the past. It's a bit sad this becomes the standard for world champions.

Did you notice they did it last year with their Ed Sheeran short dance (youthful and sexy)?

 

[Dobre]

What do people want them to do? What counts as different? This is a genuine question...

I personally can't speak for anyone else, but I would like to see a fast-paced FD.

Or maybe something with character? Or something that highlights a different type of relationship between them?

 

[Emerald66]

P\C are just amazing. Best programs of the season.

 

[cholla]

(...) much more than what S/K offered us, which look even more bland after P/C..

I felt (almost) sorry for S/K and thought, well, good luck after that, anything you do will look desperatly flat. When they took the ice the crowd was still standing up and rooting for P/C, and more or less ignored them. A severe blow to Katsalapov's ego

 

[Miloune]

I felt (almost) sorry for S/K and thought, well, good luck after that, anything you do will look desperatly flat. When they took the ice the crowd was still standing up and rooting for P/C, and more or less ignored them. A severe blow to Katsalapov's ego

Yes I think they should end all the dance events with P/C, it will be less discouraging for the others and the audience leaves on a high hahaha!!

 

[starrynight]

It sort of seemed like before the start of the season the potential rule changes were trying to engineer something with the programs...

As you would recall, this rule was floated:

To evaluate the overall Free Dance program with a specific focus for season 2018/2019 on “Entertainment” with the bonus/no action/deduction prior to inputting the Component marks. ​

​

To receive the bonus:​

- Enjoyable/colorful/engaging overall DANCE program​

​

Yes - Bonus Referee + Judges – +1.0 per program​

Partly – No action Referee + Judges 0.0 per program​

No - Deduction Referee + Judges deduction -1.0 per program​

​

https://www.isu.org/inside-single-p...ications-fs/16863-isu-communication-2148/file​

I remember a few people thought that it was an effort to direct teams away from the 'Montreal Mush' as it were.

After all, such a radical rule wouldn't be implemented if the judges weren't trying to achieve something.

Even though it was eventually rejected, I was wondering if we would see it unofficially impact choices etc. But so far I'm not seeing any changes or any kind of impact

There's always a risk with trying new things ... Medvedeva stepping out of her comfort zone with different programs is causing all sorts of teething problems for her.

 

[MarieM]

Problem is why do something else? The Montreal mush works as far as coaches are concerned. It does, on skaters like P&C. Take H&D and you see why it's not working. Or the other americans.
Take Fear&Gibson, pure Haguenauer choreography, and IMO it's them, they're not trying to PapadakisCizeron themselves.

The russians are something else. They are dated, Nikita is like so many russian men. So what can you do really? If they're not "princes", they are out of their comfort zone.

 

[cocotaffy]

That's my favorite part of their free dance.

If I'm honest, they are my guilty pleasure this season yet I couldn't stand him up to now. I bet he still has a huge ego but somehow he looks more tamed in this partnership, finally !!!! However as noted earlier after P/C, that dance really fell flat. It reminds me of Euro 2016 when S/K skated after Build a Home on yet again a very Russian styled FD.

As for the entertainment bonus, well what if the judges do feel entertained and engaged by P/C's FD ? Many of us certainly were. Who said enjoyable/colorful/engaging has to include jazz hands and tap dancing ? This bonus wouldn't have worked because it is way too subjective and we are the living proof on this thread.

 

[annie_mg]

I personally can't speak for anyone else, but I would like to see a fast-paced FD.

Or maybe something with character? Or something that highlights a different type of relationship between them?

Interesting point about something with character. By character do you mean portraying a story, where they correspond to a specific movie/theatre/opera character? That would be interesting. But my guess is they are not into it or they would have tried it already.

I stick to my point that this year's free dance is different: it has more moments where they "let go" than usual, and it's much more sexy/modern.

 

[Enchanted]

Interesting point about something with character. By character do you mean portraying a story, where they correspond to a specific movie/theatre/opera character? That would be interesting. But my guess is they are not into it or they would have tried it already.

I hope they never take that route. To me art is at its best when it’s abstract and intellectual. If anything I’d like to see something like Oddudua again. More and more experimental and avant garde. I guess we will never see it as the judges didn’t accept that kind of music and apparently gave them negative feedback of it.

 

[annie_mg]

I hope they never take that route. To me art is at its best when it’s abstract and intellectual. If anything I’d like to see something like Oddudua again. More and more experimental and avant garde. I guess we will never see it as the judges didn’t accept that kind of music and apparently gave them negative feedback of it.

I actually feel like the route they are taking is much harder than a 'character' dance. When you've got the storyline to help you, and the audience already knows who you're supposed to be, there's less convincing to be done. Creating a mood and an engaging 4minute dance when there's no clear theme is much, much harder and praise-worthy.