U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[aftershocks]

In this field he was competing with some skaters known for their performance level, which probably made his struggles on that aspect more obvious.

I agree with you in general. Alexei is still young and he's a bit rough around the edges. He needs to work on his skating skills and refining and polishing his skating. He can learn how to project more as well, which often can be helped through selecting the right music. The difference with Lazukin is perhaps that Lazukin's jumping skill when he's on looks a bit more refined than Alexei's. But Lazukin is not really a musical skater, nor does he have great presentation skills and these weaknesses tend to show up in his fps. Of course, the judges mostly seem to think Lazukin is good artistically. I think Lazukin's and Alexei's presentation skills at this juncture are fairly on a par, with both needing to project more and to feel the music more.

Alexei was not even being classed with the top flight guys like Boyang (who still does not have high quality artistic skills, but is always generously overscored on PCS) and Kolyada (Mr. Kolyada should be handily beating most of the field every time out, including a mistake-ridden Hanyu*, if Kolyada could ever skate as consistently and beautifully as he's clearly able to). That's why I'm making the comparison mainly with Lazukin, whom Alexei should most definitely have been in front of overall, IMO. Lazukin was given generously high PCS (which to me has something to do with his being Russian and coached by Mishin).

* Obviously the judges seem reluctant to take down Hanyu too much for his mistakes -- the sp turn out on a jump got positive GOE, which wouldn't have happened for anyone else

 

[Japanfan]

On Youtube, look up 'Cat Stevens' and his songs are all there, greatest hits, famous albums, playlists!

No thanks. I outgrew Cat Stevens when I was about 18.

I included lyrics from Stevens' songs, Sitting; The Wind; Peace Train; and Wild World, etc. In addition, I suggested JB consider music from the Peter Pan movie soundtrack, and also Elton John's Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me rendition on The Lost Boys movie soundtrack.

I remember the last two Cat Stevens songs, but not the first two (though might recall them if I heard them again). I can't imagine a skater skating a competitive program to either Peace Train or Wild World. Nor to Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me.

But I'm always open to being surprised.

 

[Vagabond]

Yusuf Islam's music is no more suitable for figure skating programs than Cat Stevens' is.

 

[Sylvia]

Alex Johnson flew to Japan early with his coach, Page Lipe (based on his IG stories, they visited Kyoto) - relevant excerpt from a recent article previously posted in this thread: https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...r-johnson-savors-every-chance-to-compete.aspx

Competing in Japan is a huge bonus. When Satoko Miyahara found out Johnson was entered in NHK, she immediately texted her congratulations. Her coach, Mie Hamada, invited him to arrive early in Japan to train at their rink.
"I have a few fans in Japan, and over the years they have said, 'Please come to Japan, we love your skating,'" Johnson said. "I kept explaining, I don't get to choose where I compete. Now, finally, I have the chance, and I think it will be one of the best crowds in the world."

Hope Alex enjoys his Grand Prix debut this week!

 

[CaliSteve]

Transcripts from In The Loop's interview with Alexei K:

https://www.inthelopodcast.com/news/2018/11/06/episode-16-bonus-transcript

 

[GreatLakesGal]

* Obviously the judges seem reluctant to take down Hanyu too much for his mistakes -- the sp turn out on a jump got positive GOE, which wouldn't have happened for anyone else

From Jackie Wong's Twitter: "A turnout, esp as small as Hanyu's turnout was, costs -1 to -2 on the overall GOE, so if a judge thinks the combo is a +5, they would give +3 or +4 for the combo w turnout ... that said, the flow out of the combo was not great, so the +1 or +2 most judges gave were right on"

 

[aftershocks]

Yusuf Islam's music is no more suitable for figure skating programs than Cat Stevens' is.

But you're cool with S&G's slow & melancholy Old Friends ballad cut together with another upbeat S&G selection for Jason's fp?

No thanks. I outgrew Cat Stevens when I was about 18.

To each their own.

... I can't imagine a skater skating a competitive program to either Peace Train or Wild World. Nor to Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me...

For sure, skillful cutting would be necessary. I would not expect these songs to be used straight as is, and that never happens anyway for figure skating programs, which all require good music cuts that fit the program.

But I'm always open to being surprised.

In figure skating, for sure, we usually are often surprised. It's a roller coaster, and a cliffhanger of a soap opera every season...

 

[Vagabond]

But you're cool with S&G's slow & melancholy Old Friends ballad cut together with another upbeat S&G selection for Jason's fp.

Don't put words in my mouth or ascribe feelings to me that I do not have!

As I said somewhere on FSU, I don't think there's all that much wrong with the minute of "Hazy Shade of Winder" t the end of the program, but there is a lot of hard sledding to get there. The first two minutes and twenty seconds, from"Old Friends," does not work, although I suspect a much shorter selection of it might work for someone. The forty-second middle section from "Bookends," is almost unnoticeable, probably because the "Old Friends" bit is so snoozeworthy.

Have you actually listened to any of the music Cat Stevens has recorded as Yusuf Islam? If not, click here.

 

[Colonel Green]

I'll be really interested to see at NHK whether Vincent's team has changed strategy regarding his jump layout. To me, until his UR issue is dealt with it would seem to make sense to aim for fewer but better quads (whichever of them they feel is his best) and bank more on getting good GOE on triples. Or are they just going to stick with all the quads and hope for the best?

 

[VGThuy]

I'll be really interested to see at NHK whether Vincent's team has changed strategy regarding his jump layout. To me, until his UR issue is dealt with it would seem to make sense to aim for fewer but better quads (whichever of them they feel is his best) and bank more on getting good GOE on triples. Or are they just going to stick with all the quads and hope for the best?

I can definitely see that. I think him doing all the quads he can and hoping for the best worked as a very aggressive strategy to make the Olympic team and to attempt to get as high of a TES BV as possible to not be denied by the judges. However now, he must play the long game and build to 2022. I'm sure his team understands this and will take his most recent outings into consideration as to how to best build to 2022.

 

[aftershocks]

Don't put words in my mouth or ascribe feelings to me that I do not have!

As I said somewhere on FSU, I don't think there's all that much wrong with the minute of "Hazy Shade of Winder" t the end of the program, but there is a lot of hard sledding to get there. The first two minutes and twenty seconds, from"Old Friends," does not work, although I suspect a much shorter selection of it might work for someone. The forty-second middle section from "Bookends," is almost unnoticeable, probably because the "Old Friends" bit is so snoozeworthy.

Have you actually listened to any of the music Cat Stevens has recorded as Yusuf Islam? If not, click here.

That's why I was asking @Vagabond, because I don't know. Sorry, I should have made sure I included a question mark originally to show I wasn't making a statement, since I would have no way of knowing unless I'd seen a comment about how you felt. Thanks for sharing how you feel about the S&G cuts. I'll add the question mark.

Nope, I've never listened to anything by Mr. Yusuf Islam. I do still enjoy the music and lyrics of Mr. Cat Stevens though. He was a great singer-songwriter IMO.

 

[aftershocks]

I think him doing all the quads he can and hoping for the best worked as a very aggressive strategy to make the Olympic team

Vincent actually had a lot of UR calls at 2018 Nationals, so his team's strategy for hm only worked in hindsight. In reality, Vincent was rather fortunate Jason Brown, and AdaRipp to a lesser degree, did not perform as well as expected, and Ross Miner was not held in as high regard as he had been in 2011.

Also, AdaRipp was fortunate for how well he'd performed all season and the previous season, so that his two popped jumps did not derail his Olympic dreams.

 

[VGThuy]

The truth is that Vincent probably knew he wasn't going to get the GOE and PCS to compete against the likes of Brown, Adam, and others if their BVs were similar (for good reason) so he had to bank on the TES BV. I think his strategy worked. Look at what happened at the 2018 Olympics. In the SP, the men are on a more equal playing field and Vincent was buried (again for good reason) but then once the LP happened and he could do way more quads over his competitors, we saw what happened there. Again, hoping for the best (i.e. he made it all the way around).

 

[Dobre]

The strategy worked for him, and that was all that mattered. It also worked well enough to place him sixth at the Olympic Games and third after the SP at Worlds. If he had skated as he did at the Olympics in the free at Worlds, it would have worked even better.

The question is whether they may need a new strategy under the new rule system. And I really don't know if we can know that yet considering the summer he had and the fact that we haven't seen what will happen if he attempts another strategy. My guess is they might just attempt one, though, to find out. FYI, he had a clean quad lutz combo, clean quad toe, and clean quad sal during his free at the Olympic Games.

 

[Colonel Green]

And the answer to my question, the list of planned program content.

Vincent’s short program still has two quads, but the free has been downgraded to only two (Lutz and flip).

 

[misskarne]

I'm sure his team understands this and will take his most recent outings into consideration as to how to best build to 2022.

I've always been hoping this would be the case but hearing Gambill and Zakrasjek have a whinge about his UR calls at SkAm being too harsh doesn't make me feel good about it.

Vincent actually had a lot of UR calls at 2018 Nationals, so his team's strategy for hm only worked in hindsight. In reality, Vincent was rather fortunate Jason Brown, and AdaRipp to a lesser degree, did not perform as well as expected, and Ross Miner was not held in as high regard as he had been in 2011.

The truth is that Vincent probably knew he wasn't going to get the GOE and PCS to compete against the likes of Brown, Adam, and others if their BVs were similar (for good reason) so he had to bank on the TES BV.

Equally, he would have been seeing Max Aaron train every day and know that he was in good shape, and the fact that Max had beaten him twice head-to-head at that point had to have been considered. Vincent had the weakest BOW argument of the five contenders and he must have known it. If the others had skated well, he could have very easily have been second alternate, not even first.

 

[CaliSteve]

Vincent actually had a lot of UR calls at 2018 Nationals, so his team's strategy for hm only worked in hindsight. In reality, Vincent was rather fortunate Jason Brown, and AdaRipp to a lesser degree, did not perform as well as expected, and Ross Miner was not held in as high regard as he had been in 2011.

Also, AdaRipp was fortunate for how well he'd performed all season and the previous season, so that his two popped jumps did not derail his Olympic dreams.

I think they were trying to bury Vincent at Nationals to help Vincent and Adam.

That being said, he does need to work on the jumps and skating skills. I think he tends to U/R when he gets nervous.

 

[Sylvia]

Nick McCarvel spoke to Vincent in the latest Ice Talk podcast, starting around the 20-minute mark: https://icetalk.libsyn.com/website/nhk-trophy-preview-with-satoko-miyahara-and-vincent-zhou

 

[VGThuy]

I think they were trying to bury Vincent at Nationals to help Vincent and Adam.

That being said, he does need to work on the jumps and skating skills. I think he tends to U/R when he gets nervous.

Between him and Karen Chen, the callers were going one way and the judges another. I don't want to open a can of worms here, but there were some calls from other skaters that got the nod from the callers while for these two, they seemed more attentive. Not saying Karen and Vincent should not have been called but that other skaters had some clear unders that were ratified.

 

[CaliSteve]

Between him and Karen Chen, the callers were going one way and the judges another. I don't want to open a can of worms here, but there were some calls from other skaters that got the nod from the callers while for these two, they seemed more attentive. Not saying Karen and Vincent should not have been called but that other skaters had some clear unders that were ratified.

I agree. Its like they were looking for deductions with Vincent, like they wanted to fade him away.

 

[misskarne]

I agree. Its like they were looking for deductions with Vincent, like they wanted to fade him away.

Yeah. They wanted him to fade away so bad he got 89 PCS.

It's not occurred to you that maybe the callers were calling it because they were there to be called? Evidence is pointing towards there actually being URs there to be called, since you know, the US Nats panel weren't the only ones calling them.

 

[wickedwitch]

Yeah. They wanted him to fade away so bad he got 89 PCS.

Zhou's PCS at Nats still befuddle me.

 

[CaliSteve]

Yeah. They wanted him to fade away so bad he got 89 PCS.

It's not occurred to you that maybe the callers were calling it because they were there to be called? Evidence is pointing towards there actually being URs there to be called, since you know, the US Nats panel weren't the only ones calling them.

I never said he should have not been called, Im saying that they were looking for errors. Also, there were other skaters that should have been called and were overlooked.

 

[Willin]

@CaliSteve It's worth noting that the technical panels between disciplines have different members. Being in the arena watching in real time, Vincent and a couple of the men further down the ranks were the only ones with obvious URs. The other top competitors (Nathan, Ross, Adam, Jason, Max, etc.) didn't have anything obvious if at all. I would assume that the men's panel was only nailing skaters on obvious URs and Vincent was the most notable skater to have obvious URs.

 

[CaliSteve]

Zhou's PCS at Nats still befuddle me.

His PCS was 87

 

[misskarne]

His PCS was 87

Because that's so much more justifiable.

 

[Dobre]

I don't know what the point of this argument is. Vincent proved he could outplace Adam at the Olympics, and I think we all know there is no way that Ross would have finished 6th. That was the whole point. Jason was off, off, off at Nationals. Much as I love him, there was nothing the judges could do to save him. And Vincent put out a heck of an LP. All those guys who came up after him had to have known what he'd done. The ovation was loud. And Ross's after that as well. They put the pressure on themselves. It was no accident the guys who came up late felt it.

 

[el henry]

I don’t think anyone is arguing with the placement at Nats (at least I’m not).

I *do* argue with any presumption that Vincent is the best thing since sliced bread or Nathan Chen, except those nasty nasty nasty judges just don’t realize what a true wonder and marvel the many quads of Vincent are.

Because when I watch the many quads of Vincent, I personally snooze (don’t we have a yawn icon somewhere). And he’s not the best hope of a podium outside of Chen if he’s not landing them or rotating them. And no, I don’t believe every single judge in every single comp is trying to hold down Vincent. I need to go to PI for that kind of talk

Which doesn’t mean he wasn’t the right choice for the Oly team......

 

[VGThuy]

I don't think anybody thinks Vincent is the best thing since anything or at least they know not to say it because it'll invite posts like that. He's been targeted with negative posts since 2017 Nationals where he placed over other American skaters looking for an Olympic berth with bigger fanbases on this and other forums.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

All this talk of last years nationals reminds me that the "body of work" criteria is the worst trend in skating since the implementation of the new scoring system.

-BB