U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[StitchMonkey]

Not necessarily. It's pretty common for the initial choreo of a program to take 2-3 days. For example, when Stellato/Bartholomay went to Montreal choreo choreo with MFD, they said it took a couple of days to finish. It will take longer for the skater to learn it and get it down, obviously, but initial choreo is often done pretty fast. And I've heard multiple skaters talk about scrapping a program around this stage - like they starting choreographing it and found it didn't work, or finished it and then decided they didn't like it. Now, I don't know if this is how they worked with Jason, but scrapping a program after 3 days or a week would not be a disaster timeline-wise. I have no idea if that's what they meant in terms of when they could scrap the program, but it could be.

Honestly though Jason was late in getting the free anyway. So yeah even three days is precious time wasted, and mental energy that has to be unlearned so to speak. It also would not be fair to expect David to come up with a new idea and a new program overnight. Scrapping would have also meant going back to the drawing board and picking a program and then giving David time to create it before he can even teach it to Jason. Thus putting him even farther behind and there would be no guarantee that it would be any better. It is comforting that it can be a quick process, but I am sure it is different for all, and I suspect Jason learning from a new choreographer for the first time made it slower than average, and that should I would think be expected. I just really don't think it was an option for Jason this Summer... I think it was sorta a "bird in the hand" type thing.

 

[StitchMonkey]

The good news is that in the article posted by @Impromptu (thanks, great article!) he says they will be tweaking the program, changing jump order, and adding in transitions over time, so maybe it will eventually be a good program. That shirt though - there’s no hope for it!

Sure there is hope... hope to see a TCC bowling night!

I am interested to see what is tweaked. I kinda want to see Jason open with a confidence booster jump to get the audience into it. I think it can improve... but I think the SP is going to be the stand out all year.

 

[aftershocks]

Nice article. I like Phil Hersh's writing, even though he is a grouch sometimes. This is Hersh writing very well with good perspectives from Jason. Good luck to Jason this week.

Yay, Hershey Bear actually began to listen to critiques of his writing from fans, and he's improved his approach. He's always been a good journalist and writer, but now he's more thoughtful in his approach and reflections, instead of just harsh and overly opinionated.

But one thing I take exception to is this:

"When the split became official with the late May announcement he was going to Toronto, Ade answered a text message seeking her comment on Brown’s decision by saying, 'I’ll respond when I have a chance.'
After five months and a follow-up text message to Ade: crickets.
Brown said they exchanged hugs upon seeing each other at U.S. Figure Skating’s Champs Camp in late August but have had no other interaction."

What's the point in criticizing Kori Ade, and attempting to highlight some kind of angst between her and Jason? Kori Ade doesn't have to come out with any kind of statement about Jason's career decisions, Phil Hersh, just because you want her to, and because you're overly interested in examining how both sides are handling the split. They were together for a very long time, so surely there have been painful and bittersweet emotions on both sides. Leave it alone! Stop trying to stir that pot. U.S. figure skating has likely been pushing for Jason to make different career decisions for a long time. They did not exactly like him working with Rohene Ward either, until Riverdance exploded at 2014 U.S. Nationals, slam-dunking the fact that Rohene is a very creative and exceptionally good choreographer.

Also, I personally don't see Med as being on 'a higher level' than Jason just because she has more rep standing with the judges and more hardware. That was simply respect coming from Jason with his own phrasing, which wasn't necessary to be over-emphasized. They both have different career trajectories and former variant training backgrounds. I'm sure Med herself would agree she can beneft too from training with Jason and watching him skate. But yes, I understand the two bonding and supporting each other in a new training environment. Yep, in the end for everyone, figure skating is more about the journey than the destination. And having good friends you've made throughout that journey, matters.

 

[wickedwitch]

I'm trying to keep an open mind on Jason's LP, but my instinct is that, at best, tweaks and adding bits of choreography could make the program decent (instead of terrible as it is currently). However, it will never be good.

I hope he and David Wilson prove me wrong.

 

[aftershocks]

I hope he and David Wilson prove me wrong.

And yeah, I'm not so sure they will, without a lot of tweaks to the music cuts and the costume, not just the program layout. Did the critiques in the GSD thread get back to them I wonder? Well, of course, they do not have to listen to or take account of fan critiques. I just hope Jason feels comfortable speaking up about what he feels works best for him, and that they come to a more creative solution for the fp that's not so watered down and devoid of Jason's spark and personality.

I didn't mind Jason's FS program concept that much (agree on the shirt though) but they should definitely have introduced Hazy shade of winter a lot sooner! I liked the first, quiet part, it just lasted too long. I think in the heated discussion I read that Old friends is a song about old friends, but to me there's universal feelings and problems in the lyrics, so I have no problem with Jason as a young person skating to it. I guess he likes it, so then he should do it. Last time was the first outing, so I can forgive the program being a bit empty (tech focus...) but I hope some more in betweens will be added. (Btw I love Simon and Garfunkel and want someone to do Scarborough fair...

For me, it's not about Jason being a young person skating to 'old friends' lyrics. It's that the opening music and lyrics don't jibe with his personality. The opening music cut is too quiet and doesn't even seem to have much to do with the more upbeat final cut. The music isn't working with the skater or the choreography. Forget about that costume!

I like Simon & Garfunkel too, but NOT these cuts. The program definitely doesn't work as we saw it at AC, and I'm not hopeful for it going forward. There will have to be some major reworking IMO, including the costume. Personally, for this genre of music, I wish they'd try some Cat Stevens. I'd love to see anyone try some Cat Stevens for figure skating. I made some suggestions in the GSD Jason thread, pointing out wonderful songs by Cat Stevens with some very interesting lyrics I think Jason could identify with better (in addition to some other music suggestions). But I'm sure they aren't keen on listening to fans, if the suggestions even got back to them in the first place. TBH, Simon & Garfunkel music has been used successfully in fs, but mostly with cover versions or instrumentals (e.g., Alex Johnson's Eleanor Rigby instrumental (ETA: ok, oops, that's by The Beatles), and James/Cipres' Disturbed rendition of The Sound of Silence).

... he says they will be tweaking the program, changing jump order, and adding in transitions over time, so maybe it will eventually be a good program.

Well fingers-crossed, but as I said, for me the problem really begins with the poor music cuts. IMO dilly-dallying around with layout and choreo tweaks over the course of the season may not be the best solution, particularly when it's the music that needs a reboot, along with the costume. And how might the necessity of constant tweaks affect Jason's overall confidence in skating the program? We'll see what happens.

It's pretty common for the initial choreo of a program to take 2-3 days. For example, when Stellato/Bartholomay went to Montreal choreo choreo with MFD, they said it took a couple of days to finish. It will take longer for the skater to learn it and get it down, obviously, but initial choreo is often done pretty fast. If they did it that way, you'd get the program sketched out and then David would be around to keep working on it as Jason learned it more and more. And I've heard multiple skaters talk about scrapping a program around this stage - like they starting choreographing it and found it didn't work, or finished it and then decided they didn't like it. Now, I don't know if this is how they worked with Jason, but scrapping a program after 3 days or a week would not be a disaster timeline-wise.

I agree that if Jason's team made the decision to make a complete change, they could. If they dilly-dally around, it becomes more complicated to go back to the drawing board completely. But again, it's NOT unheard of. There are probably many examples of skaters coming out with completely new programs for their Nationals. I think there's even cases of skaters changing programs after Nationals, ahead of the Olympics. Of course, not always successfully. Chalk up on the plus side, Punsalan/Swallow's very successful FD program change one Olympic season under Igor Shpilband.

 

[SmallFairy]

Thanks for your comment @aftershocks ?? I too hope that Jason feels he can speak up about what works for him. I couldn't imagine myself skating to music I didn't utterly feel all through and from the inside, so if he doesn't, I guess it's hard. (That's the good thing about being an adult competing for fun. No one decides my music and concept but me Coach just has to go along! ) When I see programs that doesn't work for skaters, locals or world class, I cringe. It's so painful and I feel so sorry for them. Let's see what Jason's program brings this week. It could be he wanted to challenge himself. About it not matching Jason's personality...we don't know the guy. There can be sides to him we don't see, we see one of it, the bubbly, fun guy. Maybe there's more? There sure is to a lot of people I know.

And you're right, there's plenty of time to change, even if you're a slow learner. Yagudin scrapped Broken Arrow for Tosca back in the days in just a few weeks, but oh boy, there's were sooo many moves from the old program in that Tosca

Btw Eleanor Rigby is a Beatles song, but S&G can have done a cover I'm not aware of.

 

[aftershocks]

About it not matching Jason's personality...we don't know the guy. There can be sides to him we don't see, we see one of it, the bubbly, fun guy. Maybe there's more? There sure is to a lot of people I know.

True that we don't know what we don't know about each other, or even about ourselves. I mentioned that in another thread recently. Even close family members we still learn things about all the time that we didn't know, quite often at their funerals.

Re Jason's fp, just in terms of what I see on the surface, for whatever reason, Jason does not seem to be in touch or in tune with the music. And I don't like the first cut at all. As I said, it doesn't seem to fit well with the final cut either. Something's missing with this program, and for me that something starts with the music. Jason is definitely a musically expressive skater, and he's not connecting with this music, which is not characteristic of his skating, period. That's my view, but as I said, we'll see what happens. As it stands, the sp and fp for Jason this season is like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Or like the breakout movie Speed vs its lame sequel, Speed 2: Cruise Control

Oh and, ah yeah, how could I forget that Eleanor Rigby is a Beatles song? I must have been thinking of "Here's to you Mrs. Robinson!" soundtrack music to The Graduate. There's something so similar about the song genres and time periods.

BTW, here's an interesting episode of Skate Talk Online with Doug Mattis interviewed by @Tony Wheeler. Doug has some interesting views in general, and in particular regarding Vincent and Nathan, and the differences between them as juniors vs seniors: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfRLy87F3C8 Doug is the new skating director at the Sugarland Ice Arena, near Houston. He mentioned that they are looking for former skaters who are interested in coaching careers to join them. Doug has contributed so much to figure skating. Lots of good luck to him in his new position!

 

[Sylvia]

Copying over from the Jason Brown to Orser thread and replying to @RoseRed here:

Of the new guys coming up right now, we have Alexei Krasnozhon (who I love) who's currently struggling coming back from injury.

He also had a coaching change so I think he has been dealing with a lot since the summer. He initially focused on 4Lo and his best international attempt may have been the 4Lo< that he landed at the JGP Final last December (FS protocol: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpf1718/data0505.pdf ).
His 2018 Junior Worlds injury withdrawal was the result of his opening 4S fall in Sofia (first 4S attempt in competition, I believe?). Earlier this month he went for the 4S in his Regionals Senior SP but fell and the jump was called <<. I am hoping he will have a relatively solid Grand Prix debut in Helsinki later this week to boost his confidence.

Then in juniors, the top guy right now is Camden Pulkinen. He's never done or attempted a quad in competition as far as I know

Camden has attempted the quad toe this summer - in his Senior free skates at the Broadmoor Open in June and the Philadelphia Summer International (called 4T<<) in early August - and fell both times. It appears that he has been focusing on skating clean junior programs so far this fall. We'll see if he decides to go for the quad again when he makes his ISU Challenger Series debut in Austria (his lucky country! ) next month.

Tomoki Hiwatashi does have the one quad in comp.

Hiwatashi landed 4T+3T in both his JGP free skates this fall -- in Canada his 4T was called < but he got full credit with ++ GOE (13.7 base value, 16.14 points) in Slovenia. He'll be going with Pulkinen to Austria next month (it will be his second Challenger assignment).

Andrew Torgashev is very nice, but very inconsistent.

His 4T still appears more consistent than his 3A at this point, but he seems to be making progress on the important mental side in competition. Of the younger U.S. men, Torgashev's overall skating ability/expressiveness comes the closest to Jason Brown's, IMO.

I've complied international scores for the U.S. Senior men here (above the pre-Regionals club comp. scores): https://unseenskaters.wordpress.com/scoretracker/current-senior-men-scores/

ETA that Vincent Zhou is listed for his second ISU Challenger, Tallinn Trophy, on USFS' Assignments page (taking place about 2.5 weeks after his 2nd GP at NHK Trophy).

 

[RoseRed]

@Sylvia I meant that Tomoki has one type of quad.

 

[Sylvia]

@Sylvia I meant that Tomoki has one type of quad.

That's how I understood your sentence to mean (that he has demonstrated one type of quad in competition so far).

ETA that Vincent Zhou is listed for his second ISU Challenger, Tallinn Trophy, on USFS' Assignments page (taking place about 2.5 weeks after his 2nd GP at NHK Trophy).

CC: @CaliSteve

 

[mag]

When I see programs that doesn't work for skaters, locals or world class, I cringe. It's so painful and I feel so sorry for them. Let's see what Jason's program brings this week. It could be he wanted to challenge himself. About it not matching Jason's personality...we don't know the guy. There can be sides to him we don't see, we see one of it, the bubbly, fun guy. Maybe there's more? There sure is to a lot of people I know.

I think your comment about challenging himself is important. We all know skaters who basically do the same program every year to different music. The first season of a new quad is the perfect time to challenge yourself as a skater. It doesn’t always work, but we don’t grow if we don’t fail. I think often as fans we are quick to jump on any little failure, whether technical or artistic, and encourage or suggest skaters should go back to something they can be successful with. The call for Bradie to dump the 3Lz+3lo in favour of a 3Lz+3T is another perfect example. For Jason to grow artistically he is going to need to push himself and, at times, fail. He has probably done this for years before becoming known. Now that he is known, the failures become public, but are still an important part of the process.

 

[Sylvia]

I posted the link to the part in a Q&A video where Jason talks about his Simon & Garfunkel FS music & program (plus there are at least 2 fans who wrote they like his program ) in this thread: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...an-orser-official.104001/page-20#post-5446277

 

[Sylvia]

... USFS is using Golden Bear in Zagreb, Croatia as a developmental international again this year. The 2 men assigned are Ilia Malinin (his second international after he won the Adv. Boys gold at the Asian Open Trophy in Bangkok in early August) and 2018 U.S. Intermediate silver medalist Matthew Nielsen in Junior (he's been one of the top scoring Novices so far this season and won the Novice gold at NAS in Toronto in mid-August).

Just realized I forgot to summarize their Golden Bear results from last week...

Ilia Malinin skated a good SP (3Lz+2T, 3F, 2A) for 1st place but had a rough FS (with his only clean/+ jumping passes being 3Lz+2T & 3Lz) for 3rd in that segment and 2nd overall in Adv. Novice.

Matthew Nielsen finished 5th overall (150.04) in Junior Men - I believe he was skating up here because he has aged out of Adv. Novice. He landed 3F, 3T+2T & 2A in his 4th place SP (55.06) and was 7th in FS (94.98), landing a ++ 2A+3T, 3S, 3S+2T, 3T & 2A+2T+1Lo. His 2 falls were on 3F< and 3Lo.

 

[layman]

Really enjoyed Krashnozhan's new SP. I see a lot of improvement in his skating. I would love to see what a top choreographer like Shae Lynn Bourne, Tom Dickson or Lori Nichol could do with him.

 

[layman]

I think Krashnoshan was underscored in Helsinki. He was the only man with two clean programs and no underrotations. I am proud of what he did in his Senior GP Debut.

 

[Marco]

Love Alexei's skating. The programs are a little empty, but I like the sharpness.

 

[layman]

Love Alexei's skating. The programs are a little empty, but I like the sharpness.

He is quite the showman too. He had the audience clapping along in his folk music themed long program

 

[TanithandBenFan]

Did Alexei do the Grieg program for his long at Nebelhorn or did he scrap it before the season? I was looking forward to that one and was surprised he turned his old short into a long.

 

[Marco]

Perhaps it is the injury, but he used to have a lot more presence as a top junior. I also think his scores and placements are a little low. It's a combination of skating in the first group and not having a quad.

 

[RoseRed]

Did Alexei do the Grieg program for his long at Nebelhorn or did he scrap it before the season? I was looking forward to that one and was surprised he turned his old short into a long.

He scrapped it before competing it. He basically said he didn't have time to really develop it with his injury.

 

[Japanfan]

Personally, for this genre of music, I wish they'd try some Cat Stevens. I'd love to see anyone try some Cat Stevens for figure skating. I made some suggestions in the GSD Jason thread, pointing out wonderful songs by Cat Stevens with some very interesting lyrics I think Jason could identify with better (in addition to some other music suggestions).

What Cat Stevens songs did you suggest?

Are young people even aware of Cat Stevens? SFAIK he hasn't produced much, if any, music in recent times (decades, in fact).

 

[VGThuy]

Maybe they can find him if they look under Yusuf Islam nowadays.

 

[Sylvia]

I am hoping he will have a relatively solid Grand Prix debut in Helsinki later this week to boost his confidence.

I'm glad Krasnozhon's GP debut turned out to be "relatively solid." Although he didn't try a quad in either program, I'm pretty sure I saw him land a 4S at the end of his warmup before the FS. It seems to me that he is still in the process of building his confidence on the ice and that it will take more time.

Did Alexei do the Grieg program for his long at Nebelhorn or did he scrap it before the season? I was looking forward to that one and was surprised he turned his old short into a long.

He scrapped it before competing it. He basically said he didn't have time to really develop it with his injury.

Here's the article published before Nebelhorn Trophy in which he talked about his injury recovery/FS program change/working with Marina Zoueva/etc.: http://figureskatersonline.com/news/2018/09/27/alex-krasnozhon-is-taking-control-of-his-career/

 

[aftershocks]

What Cat Stevens songs did you suggest?

Are young people even aware of Cat Stevens? SFAIK he hasn't produced much, if any, music in recent times (decades, in fact).

Maybe they can find him if they look under Yusuf Islam nowadays.

On Youtube, look up 'Cat Stevens' and his songs are all there, greatest hits, famous albums, playlists! In the Jason Brown thread in GSD, go back some pages and you will find my suggestions for JB. I'll link the page to my posts (#s461, 462, and 469) here:
https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/updated-jason-brown-to-brian-orser-official.104001/page-16

I included lyrics from Stevens' songs, Sitting; The Wind; Peace Train; and Wild World, etc. In addition, I suggested JB consider music from the Peter Pan movie soundtrack, and also Elton John's Don't Let the Sun Go Down on Me rendition on The Lost Boys movie soundtrack.

 

[aftershocks]

I think Krashnoshan was underscored in Helsinki. He was the only man with two clean programs and no underrotations. I am proud of what he did in his Senior GP Debut.

My thoughts exactly. I understand that Alexei did not go for quads, which I think was smart as he's rebuilding his stamina and confidence. But it was simply decided not to reward Alexei too much, either because he didn't do quads, or they had the guys they wished to favor in mind for the top spots. I think Lazukin is a technically proficient skater who seems to be a great sp skater, whose weaknesses show up in his fps. And yet perhaps because he's Russian and Mishin is his coach, Lazukin is way overscored on PCS, and he's also given generous GOEs. Lazukin faltering in the fp should have had Alexei in front overall, and not just slightly in fp. The PCS for Lazukin and Alexei should be more on a par IMO. To his credit, Alexei did not show any disappointment in the kiss 'n cry. He seemed okay with the marks as perhaps a starting point for him moving forward. And he should rightly be pleased with his clean performances. There's no accounting (literally and figuratively) for what the judges decide.

Debatably, Alexei should have placed ahead of at least Jin and Lazukin (if not also ahead of Kolyada). I get that Alexei is still immature and rough around the edges and he hasn't mastered a lot of quads, but he was the only guy to skate clean in both programs (with lovely Michal Brezina and brilliant Junhwan Cha the only other two men with the least mistakes). My gosh Kolyada! He's so talented and so inconsistent. What a lot of inconsistencies though from skaters and judges. Jury is out on the new scoring system -- out on an extended vacation.

 

[Willin]

I also think it was smart for Alexei to leave out the quads for now. If the scoring this season has been any indication, failing a quad attempt is not nearly as good as succeeding with a quad-free program. It's not worth the risk for him to try a quad given his previous success (or lack thereof) at quads in competition.
I don't know how much of this has changed with the scoring system revamp, but in the past few seasons it seemed judges rewarded the most consistent skaters with the highest PCS, warranted or not. If they continue to do that and Alexei gains a reputation for being consistent without a quad, he'll certainly be in a much better position PCS-wise by the time his quads get consistent.

 

[mag]

But it was simply decided not to reward Alexei too much, either because he didn't do quads, or they had the guys they wished to favor in mind for the top spots.

Who made this decision and how was it implemented?

 

[Willin]

@mag I don't know if this is what @aftershocks was referring to, but it is a well known and commonly observed pattern dating all the way back to 6.0 that those not in the final warm-up group tend to get rewarded lower scores regardless of performance. I would assume that affected his score here.
I think a bigger part of the problem (at least based on what I saw from him at Nationals) is that he's not great at projecting or performing yet. He can turn up a crowd once the program's over, but during the program he's forgettable. In this field he was competing with some skaters known for their performance level, which probably made his struggles on that aspect more obvious.

 

[overedge]

Maybe they can find him if they look under Yusuf Islam nowadays.

His back catalogue is still sold under the Cat Stevens name, and he had a new record out last year as Yusuf/Cat Stevens https://catstevens.com/media/albums/the-laughing-apple/

 

[aftershocks]

Who made this decision and how was it implemented?

Each individual judge made their choice in how to score each skater obviously. Skaters' overall stats coming in, and how skaters perform in practices, and where skaters are in the World standings, and in terms of reputation and skating order are also factors. There's no doubt Alexei could have been scored a bit more generously for how well he performed. There's plenty of evidence that some skaters were very generously scored (particularly with mistakes), and some were not. There are a variety of reasons why, which definitely include how each skater is viewed. I'm not completely condemning judges, as they are stuck with the system that exists as much as the skaters and fans are. I'm sure many judges do the best they can to follow the guidelines that exist. But let's be honest about the politics and the favoritism, and the 'wait your turn,' and the 'who is a skater's coach,' and 'how powerful is a skater's federation' factors that play a role in how skaters are scored, obviously also in respect to how talented skaters are and also how they perform. But all of these things are factors in the minds of judges consciously and likely to some degree unconsciously. I'm sure in the moment of scoring, the judges are mostly focused on what they saw in a skater's performance, but judges surely can not ecape being affected by these other factors.

Looking at the protocols can be helpful in trying to figure out what was in the judges' minds. But looking at the protocols, can just as easily be confusing and give rise to more questions. Forget about figuring out PCS range of scores for specific skaters. PCS are largely used to manipulate placements, as now are the new range of -5 to +5 scores. With these recent changes to the scoring system, some of the drops in tech marks can be quite dizzying, if not nauseating. And the judges are not really consistent in their decisions across-the-board. Probably some of them try to be, or have explanations and justifications.