U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

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DreamSkates

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Alex Johnson flew to Japan early with his coach, Page Lipe (based on his IG stories, they visited Kyoto) - relevant excerpt from a recent article previously posted in this thread: https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...r-johnson-savors-every-chance-to-compete.aspx

Hope Alex enjoys his Grand Prix debut this week!
But later in the article, "Johnson admits NHK Trophy, plus the 2019 U.S. Figure Skating Championships in Detroit – and any later season assignments he might earn – may mark the final competitions of his career. He is determined to savor them." SAD.
 

vesperholly

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One could just as easily say that skaters should be aiming to peak at high-pressure competitions. And what better way to prove that you can do it by peaking at Nationals?

Michelle Kwan peaked at Nationals, and lost the Olympics. Hard to peak twice.

What one could ask for, if placements at Nationals are not going to be the determining factor, is transparency from the selection committee. Please?
There was quite a lot of criteria posted from USFS. Short of an actual score for each competition (disadvantages rising skaters like Bradie) or televising the discussions (LOL), I'm not sure how much more they could give.
 

misskarne

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I struggle to see the called underrotations in Vincent's skating in real time and in the replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_QIVECa-8

I do see that he tends to land on the toe pick. I think this is why he is called so often when the jump may in fact be clean.

:lol: Are you joking? They're painfully obvious and only become more stark on replay. It's nothing to do with "landing on the toe pick" (everybody lands on the toepick otherwise you're gonna have a bad time). He's not rotating. Plain and simple.

Vincent got lucky that they didn’t call the 3T as well, because it was clearly under too.

That's really got me baffled. Real-time it was the worst of the landings and the most obvious call. Replays only made it look worse. I can't fathom how it didn't occur to them to call it and I sincerely hope they got called on that at round table.

Wow! Alexander Johnson is an incredible skater...he reminds me of a cross between John Curry and Jeremy Abbott. Too bad about the double lutz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV9tS8y7sa8

I think his PCS scores are way too low too.

This was such an annoyingly confusing program. Awful cover of the song and at times dissonant choreography as though he wanted to be skating to the much more upbeat original. I said in my pbp that it felt like this program didn't know what it wanted to be and I stand by that after a next-day watching - and I'm guessing maybe the judges got that feeling too.

I hope Vincent's team helps him get through what is possibly a difficult realization about his entire jump techniques and not encouraging him to develop a complex and thus become bitter.

Last night I was thinking about Reynolds flouncing out of the Kiss and Cry after his scores came up in Canada, as though he was upset/annoyed/shocked that his URs were called. Or the shocked look on Mirai's face every time her score came up lower than (she) expected. There's so much jump talent in Vincent that I really, really hope he doesn't go down this path where he can't feel the URs and thus is shocked and upset every time they get called.

He needs to do something to make his jumps be unarguably seen as complete. Once he starts hitting more jumps and having them called clean, it'll clear his head-space so he can better focus on other aspects of his skating as well as the jumps.

My view, though I don't claim to be an expert in the coaching department, is that maybe it would be better to take a huge step back. Stop doing quads for a while - or pick one he can actually get called around in competition and just work with one. Get the triples nice and big and clean, and one, or two quads called clean - even take it back to the toe and Salchow. Do that for a while, build up some nice goodwill for consistency and also start stacking up the clean protocols. Then, and only then, start re-introducing the harder quads. Yes, it will take time, but this is the perfect time to do it! We're at the beginning of the quad, it's still four years til the next Olympics, and Vincent's only just turned 18.

FYI for reference: David Santee (1981 World medalist) was the Technical Specialist for the men's event. In theory you'd think a tech panel with an American specialist (and that was also the case at SkAm, where 1994 U.S. champ Scott Davis was the specialist) would help, but I think that speaks to the severity of Vincent's jump rotation issues.

I find it interesting that it was two US TS that really nailed him at SkAm and now NHK. This could mean a couple of things: a) that neither TS will be picked for US Nats because US Nats has a "soft" panel, or b) that actually they're not going to pick a "soft" panel for US Nats and Vincent can't expect the usual leniency there, which could throw a fox in the henhouse to say the least.
 

Colonel Green

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I find it interesting that it was two US TS that really nailed him at SkAm and now NHK. This could mean a couple of things: a) that neither TS will be picked for US Nats because US Nats has a "soft" panel, or b) that actually they're not going to pick a "soft" panel for US Nats and Vincent can't expect the usual leniency there, which could throw a fox in the henhouse to say the least.
I don't think the USFSA would think it's in their interest to go soft on Vincent at Nationals if he's then going to be sent to Worlds and get nailed again by the international panels (assuming this continues for the remainder of the season), potentially harming Team USA's spots for next year.
 

misskarne

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I don't think the USFSA would think it's in their interest to go soft on Vincent at Nationals if he's then going to be sent to Worlds and get nailed again by the international panels (assuming this continues for the remainder of the season), potentially harming Team USA's spots for next year.

Well it's never really been in their best interests to have a soft TP at Nats for any discipline, and yet...
 

Vagabond

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There was quite a lot of criteria posted from USFS. Short of an actual score for each competition (disadvantages rising skaters like Bradie) or televising the discussions (LOL), I'm not sure how much more they could give.
Other Federations publish lists of how much weight is given to each competition. This can be anything from a better placement than one's rivals at one specific competition, such as Four Continents, to taking an average or total of Total Scores from designated competitions. Federations that have done so at one time or another include Australia, Germany, and Japan.

Alternatively, the Selection Committee could be more forthright when it discloses its selection about how it evaluated the skaters it selects.

Both of these possibilities have shortcomings, but they would be a lot better than :sekret: :bribe: :bloc:, which is what we have now. Or the USFSA could go back to choosing the highest finishers, barring an extremely compelling reason for not doing so (such as a top skater's missing Nationals due to illness or injury).
 

Sylvia

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But later in the article, "Johnson admits NHK Trophy, plus the 2019 U.S. Figure Skating Championships in Detroit – and any later season assignments he might earn – may mark the final competitions of his career. He is determined to savor them." SAD.
You mean sad for his fans? I'm happy for Alex that he finally gets to compete in a Grand Prix at the age of 28... and it's Japan! And he showed some quality skating in the SP! :cheer:
 

jlai

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:lol: Are you joking? They're painfully obvious and only become more stark on replay. It's nothing to do with "landing on the toe pick" (everybody lands on the toepick otherwise you're gonna have a bad time). He's not rotating. Plain and simple.


My view, though I don't claim to be an expert in the coaching department, is that maybe it would be better to take a huge step back. Stop doing quads for a while - or pick one he can actually get called around in competition and just work with one. Get the triples nice and big and clean, and one, or two quads called clean - even take it back to the toe and Salchow. Do that for a while, build up some nice goodwill for consistency and also start stacking up the clean protocols. Then, and only then, start re-introducing the harder quads. Yes, it will take time, but this is the perfect time to do it! We're at the beginning of the quad, it's still four years til the next Olympics, and Vincent's only just turned 18.

I confess I didn't see quite a few of Zhou's cheats, but they have been called enough that I think they aren't a conspiracy against him. :)

Zhou rose very fast which enabled him to go the Olympics last year, but he is actually the same age or younger than some of the jgp guys who are still developing. It won't hurt him at all to take the time to do developmental work. He is already ahead of the other guys his age with his competitive experience, even if he takes some time to work on "development" stuff.

eta: On a different note, this year no one is showing himself as the US fed's reliable goto for the team, except our noted Yalee. :) That will make nationals exciting and worlds a bit scary.
 
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misskarne

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eta: On a different note, this year no one is showing himself as the US fed's reliable goto for the team, except our noted Yalee. :) That will make nationals exciting and worlds a bit scary.

That was my other thought, that it's the perfect time for him to take that big step back because the depth has been ripped out of the US men and his domestic standing probably wouldn't slip very far anyway.
 

VGThuy

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Well it's never really been in their best interests to have a soft TP at Nats for any discipline, and yet...

I think the callers were pretty strict last year from I remember (which isn't much these days :lol:). The judges, on the other hand....well, you saw Vincent's PCS. But then they were not as generous to Ashley Wagner as they could have been, but that's another topic.
 

RoseRed

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I struggle to see the called underrotations in Vincent's skating in real time and in the replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_QIVECa-8

I do see that he tends to land on the toe pick. I think this is why he is called so often when the jump may in fact be clean.

His greatly improved SS and Presentation are not being reflected in his PCS scores either.
I honestly think his PCS scores are fine. He's 0,25 behind Matteo Rizzo in PCS in the SP, and he's definitely not better than Matteo in PCS imo, even with Matteo's jump errors (well actually I think Matteo is quite a bit better in this area, but even if you disagree, no way he's behind Vincent).
 

RoseRed

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Well, that explains a lot!
I'm not sure how much of an impact it would really have had though, since he wasn't that much better at Skate America.

I mean, I feel bad for him, but the shoulder isn't making him UR, which is his big problem.
 

Theoreticalgirl

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I'm not sure how much of an impact it would really have had though, since he wasn't that much better at Skate America.

I mean, I feel bad for him, but the shoulder isn't making him UR, which is his big problem.

Jumping involves the whole body; I've personally had rotator cuff injuries that made it difficult to get myself up and pull into jumps—even single rotation ones.

Besides that, a dislocated shoulder means time off the ice, and ultimately less time to train.
 
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RoseRed

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Jumping involves the whole body; I've personally had rotator cuff injuries that made it difficult to get myself up and pull into jumps—even single rotation ones.

Besides that, a dislocated shoulder means time off the ice, and ultimately less time to train.
My point was that he's had the UR issues at tons of competitions, so you can't just blame it on the shoulder. He said he'd trained well before SA, and he had tons. And I don't think he was going to fix them that much in the couple of weeks from then until NHK, regardless of the shoulder.
 

concorde

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I'm not sure how much of an impact it would really have had though, since he wasn't that much better at Skate America.

I mean, I feel bad for him, but the shoulder isn't making him UR, which is his big problem.

For the big jumps, one needs alot of upper body strength. I have heard of skaters requiring shoulder surgery because their upper body could not handle the amount of force they were trying to exert when attempting the big jumps.

When I think of a skater dislocating their shoulder, I assume it was caused by bad jumps where the skater tries to catch him/herself (remember Daniel Samohim at Skate America).

Now I am wondering if Vincent's dislocated shoulder was caused more from "requiring more force than what his body can handle" (in an attempt to get the full rotation) verus "catching oneself after a bad landing."
 

concorde

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I'm sensing a pattern of Vincent performs poorly, Vincent reveals he was injured ...

I'm kinda surprised that USFS has not fined him.
Didn't they fine Rachel Flatt for revealing after Worlds that she had an injury that limited her performance and hence, that is why she did poorly.
 

VGThuy

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Rachael's issue was that she did not disclose it. Vincent may have already notified official members that he was recovering from a dislocated shoulder. It was already widely reported before Skate America that he had lost a lot of training time in the summer due to injury related to the injury he had prior to Worlds. It also maybe had to do with the fact that it was Worlds and team spots for next year were on the line and there may have been a viable alternative to replace her in case an injury was so severe to affect her ability to perform. Vincent GP's spot wasn't given to him by the USFS but was one he earned through his international standings. If he had dropped out there'd be no alternative the USFS could have sent instead.

It's not hard for me to picture Vincent dislocating his shoulder after SA to be in a hurry to force his rotations to be faster to avoid more UR calls and rushing it.
 

misskarne

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I'm sensing a pattern of Vincent performs poorly, Vincent reveals he was injured ...

Someone needs to have a word with him about timing. Because even though I'm certain the injuries are legit - poor kid's got quite the laundry list now - his announcement timing sucks. Like the back injury that wasn't a problem after the SP at Worlds, but was then revealed after the seven UR FS. Or the dislocated shoulder that isn't mentioned until after all the URs start getting called at NHK. And at this point it just starts looking like excuses.

He even had an opening when the PPCs went up before NHK and everyone saw he'd dropped back to two quads in the free. "Hey guys don't worry, it's just a precaution because I dislocated my shoulder last week and we don't want to overdo it!"

I know my views on this are incredibly distorted but I don't want to see this become a habit for him. His last four competitions some kind of excuse has been made afterwards - his back, his shoulder, the mean technical panel being mean. Even last year the GP performances had excuses - transitioning to Seniors is hard, etc etc. At some point, someone needs to sit him down and say "It's okay to admit you just skated badly. You don't need a reason." And I also completely blame the USFS' hype machine for some of this. That interview where Auxier basically said Chen and Zhou were the only US men worth anything. Way to put pressure on two very young guys - pressure that might make someone think they need to provide a reason for skating poorly.
 

Alexa

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There was an IG post of Vincent practicing Rippon 4lz around his Korean Ice show back in April. He also participated in several Star on Ice shows in May when there were a couple of interviews conducted, no injury except the injury before the worlds was mentioned in those interviews, so I assumed probably the back injury was getting better around April and May, but somehow got worse or he suffered more injuries after May. His battle with back injuries was reported before US Classics.
 
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Marco

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Vincent's recent UR woes seem to be a combination of his usual technical issue coupled with the ISU's harsher take on UR this season. So harsh that I don't even agree with some of the calls upon slomo replay. Perhaps they have a closer / different angle, perhaps they are counting some of the pre-rotation (which they never did unless it was Amber Corwin-level).

Anyways, while I am not familiar with Tom Z's school of teaching, I wonder how they deal with UR calls. From what I read / hear about his school, it has always been about conditioning and training, not so much technical adjustments or improving on the basics. If he works harder on his basic skating, perhaps his power / jump rotation can come easier and this can also help with his PCS.

Whatever it is, I hope Vincent works hard and fixes the issues. I do find it unfortunate that he is landing all these difficult jumps (0.25 turn short or not) only to be totally outscored by others doing much easier jumps, but sometimes the lower PCS is hard to dispute.
 

Sylvia

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I'm sorry to see Andrew Torgashev has WD from the JGP Final :(: http://www.isuresults.com/events/gpjgpf1819/Entries_JuniorMen.htm

ETA: I'm pretty sure Andrew will get to keep his bye to Nationals; hopefully he will be fine to compete in Detroit.

Also, Jason Brown and Alexei Krasnozhon are the 2 U.S. men listed for the final ISU Challenger, Golden Spin of Zagreb, Dec. 5-8.
 
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Sylvia

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Torgashev has tweeted a link to his message on IG: https://www.instagram.com/p/BqFw2GKn_2I/
I’m really sad to announce that I won’t be competing at JGP Final this year. I’ve been struggling with injury and unfortunately my body is healing slower than originally expected. For the better of my health and future I must make the smarter decision and let myself fully recover. Never the less, I wish the best to my training mates and competitors to compete and skate great. Thank you for all of your guys’s ever lasting support, I’ll be back
 
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