U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

[Sylvia]

Nick McCarvel spoke to Vincent in the latest Ice Talk podcast, starting around the 20-minute mark: https://icetalk.libsyn.com/website/nhk-trophy-preview-with-satoko-miyahara-and-vincent-zhou

A couple of things after listening:
Vincent mentioned that he recently "spent a couple of days back in California seeing my doctor for a little shoulder issue, but the couple of days interruption to my training has not in any way diminished my spirit or my plans to do well and improve upon Skate America at NHK."
He's currently applying to colleges and is going to start driving soon.

ETA:

Alex Johnson's tweet from Japan: https://twitter.com/Alex_M_Johnson/status/1060389856172498944

#NHKTrophy has been a dream so far. I almost cried on my first practice because it was just so magical. Words can’t express how grateful I am for this opportunity. Soaking in every moment!

 

[Willin]

I wonder how the college thing is going to affect Vincent. Knowing his mom, she won't accept anything but the best. Now, Colorado has some good schools, but not Top 25. I wonder if it will mean he's going to switch coaches, try the Nathan Chen and Raf video thing, or just go to one of the good colleges closer to Colorado Springs.

 

[Marco]

All this talk of last years nationals reminds me that the "body of work" criteria is the worst trend in skating since the implementation of the new scoring system.

-BB

I think it's great. I would hate it if one of the spots is given to someone who hasn't proven himself to be competitive and just goes for broke and somehow by some dumb luck gets through. People should be aiming to peak at the Olympics, not Nationals.

 

[vesperholly]

I don't think Vincent is hyped nearly as much as Nathan.

 

[misskarne]

He's been targeted with negative posts since 2017 Nationals where he placed over other American skaters looking for an Olympic berth with bigger fanbases on this and other forums.

You mean where his fans started targeting Jason Brown with negative posts because the USFS made the unquestionably correct call to make sure there was an experienced skater on the Worlds team? I mean, there was just no way the US would have three spots for the Olympics without Vincent and Nathan! And of course it didn't matter a jot that it'd be Vincent's first full Senior International competition, he'd be fine! (But when he made his GP debut and that didn't go well - oh, the transition to Seniors is hard!) And don't forget all about how it would be Vincent and Nathan to get the three spots at this year's Worlds and without one of those two the US'd be down to two.

USFS was proved right two years in a row why having an experienced teammate is important. Besides, I'm sure Zakrasjek spending most of last season acting like he only had one Senior man on social media made up for quite a bit of it.

 

[wickedwitch]

I think it's great. I would hate it if one of the spots is given to someone who hasn't proven himself to be competitive and just goes for broke and somehow by some dumb luck gets through. People should be aiming to peak at the Olympics, not Nationals.

I agree. And every time the USFSA has gone with a "body of work" skater, I've agreed 100% with their decision. I typically am pretty critical of the USFSA, so that's remarkable.

 

[VGThuy]

You mean where his fans started targeting Jason Brown with negative posts because the USFS made the unquestionably correct call to make sure there was an experienced skater on the Worlds team? I mean, there was just no way the US would have three spots for the Olympics without Vincent and Nathan! And of course it didn't matter a jot that it'd be Vincent's first full Senior International competition, he'd be fine! (But when he made his GP debut and that didn't go well - oh, the transition to Seniors is hard!) And don't forget all about how it would be Vincent and Nathan to get the three spots at this year's Worlds and without one of those two the US'd be down to two.

USFS was proved right two years in a row why having an experienced teammate is important. Besides, I'm sure Zakrasjek spending most of last season acting like he only had one Senior man on social media made up for quite a bit of it.

Yeah, posts like that. It was very Nathan Chen-response after 2016 Nationals.

 

[el henry]

I don't think anybody thinks Vincent is the best thing since anything or at least they know not to say it because it'll invite posts like that. He's been targeted with negative posts since 2017 Nationals where he placed over other American skaters looking for an Olympic berth with bigger fanbases on this and other forums.

I've never targeted Vincent.

In 2017, I said, and will say again, that Jason deserved to go to Worlds ahead of him. I said that *in response* to Vincent fans who were denigrating Jason. In this and other fora. I don't consider that "negative", I consider it my opinion about the relative merits of two skaters. Am I supposed to hide the fact that I was underwhelmed by his actual skating? And that his BV matters less to me?

He seems like a smart and motivated kid, but does that mean I need to like his skating, or I'm targeting him with negative posts? Yikes

 

[Vagabond]

People should be aiming to peak at the Olympics, not Nationals.

One could just as easily say that skaters should be aiming to peak at high-pressure competitions. And what better way to prove that you can do it by peaking at Nationals?



Which is not to say that one view or the other is necessarily right. Indeed, the two sides of this debate are repeated every so often on FSU with very little hard evidence, if any, to back up the assertions.

What one could ask for, if placements at Nationals are not going to be the determining factor, is transparency from the selection committee. Please?

 

[VGThuy]

I don't know, those "fans" seemed to have disappeared after 2017 Worlds and some of them were some posters who would have argued for anyone who seemed young and new to me and just seemed tired of "quadless journeymen".

One could just as easily say that skaters should be aiming to peak at high-pressure competitions. And what better way to prove that you can do it by peaking at Nationals?



Which is not to say that one view or the other is necessarily right. Indeed, the two sides of this debate are repeated every so often on FSU with very little hard evidence, if any, to back up the assertions.

What one could ask for, if placements at Nationals are not going to be the determining factor, is transparency from the selection committee. Please?

Transparency would be good. Just explaining how they came to their decisions. Most of us that night at Nationals were going over Jackie Wong-created charts and stuff. The team that made the most sense to most people it seemed with the criteria that laid out ended up being the team that went, BUT it would have been great for USFS to confirm the thought-process behind it.

 

[Vagabond]

I must have had those "fans" on Ignore.

ETA: I did have them on Ignore.

 

[Tavi]

Jason is a quadless journeyman?

 

[skatingguy]

Jason is a quadless journeyman?

To some posters, yes.

 

[Marco]

Transprency would be great, although I sort of understand that it is hard to quantify and sounds quite arbitrary to say - we are sending Vincent instead of Ross because "XXX YYY ZZZ", because the inevitable question then becomes - where and when is this explicitly stated in the rules or crtieria? What if Vincent got silver instead of gold at Jr Worlds? What if he got bronze instead of silver at Nationals the year before? There is no hard rule. Any attempt to explain their decisions will only lead to more attacks.

 

[Colonel Green]

Well, Vincent’s new approach isn’t off to a great start, sigh. I was forgetting that his 3A is often cheated too.

 

[concorde]

I was one of those doubters that questioned sending Jason over Vincent to Worlds a couple of years back. My concern then (as it will be in the future) was that USFS chose an established skater over a rising newbie. I understand that an established skater can have an off day so USFS can chose to rely on a body of work. But how is that fair to a newbie who is trying to break in that has nothing to compare against. This goes back to a USFS mentality that has been cited for years "wait your turn." But sometimes that mentality needs to be tested to allow new talent to break through.

Looking back, I agree that USFS probably made to right call. But we will never know for sure.

 

[layman]

I struggle to see the called underrotations in Vincent's skating in real time and in the replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_QIVECa-8

I do see that he tends to land on the toe pick. I think this is why he is called so often when the jump may in fact be clean.

His greatly improved SS and Presentation are not being reflected in his PCS scores either.

 

[mackiecat]

I struggle to see the called underrotations in Vincent's skating in real time and in the replay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_QIVECa-8

I do see that he tends to land on the toe pick. I think this is why he is called so often when the jump may in fact be clean.

His greatly improved SS and Prensentation are not being reflected in his PCS scores either.

Watch the slow motion. It’s obvious, especially on the combo

 

[Colonel Green]

Vincent got lucky that they didn’t call the 3T as well, because it was clearly under too.

 

[layman]

Wow! Alexander Johnson is an incredible skater...he reminds me of a cross between John Curry and Jeremy Abbott. Too bad about the double lutz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV9tS8y7sa8

I think his PCS scores are way too low too.

 

[soogar]

Wow! Alexander Johnson is an incredible skater...he reminds me of a cross between John Curry and Jeremy Abbott. Too bad about the double lutz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV9tS8y7sa8

I think his PCS scores are way too low too.

He is incredible and those PCS are way too low!

 

[VGThuy]

Vincent got lucky that they didn’t call the 3T as well, because it was clearly under too.

I guess it depends on where the callers felt he launched his 3Toe. Watching it on 0.25 speed may be helpful to see where they may have figured his launch angle was at.

https://youtu.be/bI_QIVECa-8?t=338

I hope Vincent's team helps him get through what is possibly a difficult realization about his entire jump techniques and not encouraging him to develop a complex and thus become bitter. It's not useful to go after what he should have done when he was developing his jumps or whatever (for him anyway...for the coaches it is useful for their current and future students), but rather acknowledge this is where he's at now and there is work to be done and it can be done. Hopefully, his coaches are encouraging him to think this is a fixable issue rather than something that will be a chronic problem for the rest of his career. He needs to do something to make his jumps be unarguably seen as complete. Once he starts hitting more jumps and having them called clean, it'll clear his head-space so he can better focus on other aspects of his skating as well as the jumps. I know some think what Tom Z wrote after SA shows he put his head in the sand, but I did not read it that way, and I hope my interpretation is the correct one.

 

[Mrs. P]

FYI for reference: David Santee (1981 World medalist) was the Technical Specialist for the men's event. In theory you'd think a tech panel with an American specialist (and that was also the case at SkAm, where 1994 U.S. champ Scott Davis was the specialist) would help, but I think that speaks to the severity of Vincent's jump rotation issues.

There were three key events - 2017 Junior Worlds, 2018 Olympics (FS) and 2018 Worlds (for the SP), where Vincent got far fewer or even no under-rotation calls. Given that these are big championship events, it's easy to see why Vincent and his team feel they have received mixed messages regarding his jump rotations.

The problem that it also created mixed messages for USFS and fans in general. With no UR calls at Junior Worlds, he got 104 TES in his free skate. For reference, Jason had gotten like 79 TES at 4CC a few weeks earlier. So in hindsight, it's understandable why people felt Vincent was on a positive trajectory and Jason (even considering injury recovery at the time) wasn't. But then on the GP, the tech panels were strict on Vincent again. Had he gotten the same tech calling at Junior Worlds, perhaps the TES scores would have been closer.

The same mixed messages came at Worlds 2018 when he finished 3rd after the SP and scored like 97 points. and then he had all these UR calls the next day in the FS.

As to whether Vincent gets picked on more, I think it's more that Vincent, for whatever reason, hasn't gained the fan base of other skaters just yet. I agree with VGT and others that the Jason vs. Vincent debate in 2017 was less from "Vincent fans" and from people who just took issue with Jason getting Worlds despite finishing behind Vincent.

Vincent's kind of in a tough situation -- his jumps when rotated and scored well is basically what gives him the scores he needs until he can truly improve in the SS/PE and other PCS areas. But resolving rotation issues take time and he doesn't have the PCS/non-jump elements -- he got two level-3 spins with +GOE) -- to keep him going while he works on them.

I wish him luck. He seems to be a driven and bright kid.

 

[Spun Silver]

I am not convinced the nationality of the TS speaks to anything. I can't give specifics but IIRC there have been plenty of times where Shin Amano was harsh on Japanese skaters, US callers have been hard on American skaters, etc. But that's a minor point.

 

[Mrs. P]

I am not convinced the nationality of the TS speaks to anything. I can't give specifics but IIRC there have been plenty of times where Shin Amano was harsh on Japanese skaters, US callers have been hard on American skaters, etc. But that's a minor point.

That's true. Scott Davis, from what I've seen, is actually a pretty strict TS (he was certainly at SkAm, not just to Vincent).

But I think my main takeaway that are far more technical panels who are inclined NOT to give Vincent the benefit of the doubt, but the ones who did were at high-profile competitions.

I do think that the tech panels are being more strict in general, though.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

That's true. Scott Davis, from what I've seen, is actually a pretty strict TS (he was certainly at SkAm, not just to Vincent).

But I think my main takeaway that are far more technical panels who are inclined NOT to give Vincent the benefit of the doubt, but the ones who did were at high-profile competitions.

I do think that the tech panels are being more strict in general, though.

The standard is more strict this season, with landing 1/4 turn short of full rotation considered underrotated (last season it had to be more than 1/4). A lot of jumps are landed very close to that mark so the change in rule does make a difference (and camera angle can as well).

 

[StasiyaGalustyanLove]

If USA could use a science lab to cross the charisma of Alexie Kraznoshon and the jumps and spins of Keegan Messing skating would be come bigger then Godzilla, too bad it is illegal to do that because of the corrupt UN regulations designed to penalize USA for having the best technology on the Planet!

 

[Mrs. P]

The standard is more strict this season, with landing 1/4 turn short of full rotation considered underrotated (last season it had to be more than 1/4). A lot of jumps are landed very close to that mark so the change in rule does make a difference (and camera angle can as well).

That's also a good point.

 

[Tavi]

I was one of those doubters that questioned sending Jason over Vincent to Worlds a couple of years back. My concern then (as it will be in the future) was that USFS chose an established skater over a rising newbie. I understand that an established skater can have an off day so USFS can chose to rely on a body of work. But how is that fair to a newbie who is trying to break in that has nothing to compare against. This goes back to a USFS mentality that has been cited for years "wait your turn." But sometimes that mentality needs to be tested to allow new talent to break through.

Looking back, I agree that USFS probably made to right call. But we will never know for sure.

I think in any field, when there’s a lot at stake, there’s always going to be tension if someone has to decide whether to rely on an established performer or give an opportunity to a promising newbie. But I don’t think not getting the highest profile assignment the first time out is necessarily bad, as long as you’re given other assignments that allow you to grow and demonstrate that you can be the reliable one in the future. And I do think Vincent has been given those opportunities. In many ways it was a kindness not sending him to Worlds in 2017. While he might have performed very well there despite the pressure, imagine how he would have felt if he’d placed poorly. He seems like a sensitive kid, and I bet he would have been devastated if the US had ended up with only two Olympic spots.

 

[mag]

I do see that he tends to land on the toe pick. I think this is why he is called so often when the jump may in fact be clean.

Jumps are landed on the toe pick and down onto the blade. The key is the skater may only turn less than a quarter turn before the remainder of the blade hits the ice. If it is a 1/4 turn or more it is < or <<. When you really notice that a skater is landing on the toe pick (Karen Chen and Mirai being another great examples) it is often because they are spendings a fraction of a second more on the pick and turning the last part of the jump on the pick before putting the remainder of the blade down. Some Skaters put the blade down as well and then cuff out the landing (Alina Zagitova) and those cheats are often easier to spot because you can see the tracing on the ice.