Love, Balls and Courting: Tennis V

thvudragon said:
Again, you're looking at something in isolation. Ramos himself selectively enforces rules. That you fail to see the inconsistencies of not just him, but of officiating in tennis in general shows to me that you're starting with your conclusion first, and filling in the details later. Coaches have been doing this for decades. Ramos has umpired matches where coaches were blatantly telling players what to do and he did not call violations. To claim otherwise, or that Ramos was ignorant in these matches would itself be a willingly ignorant assertion.
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Here's the thing. I don't think Ramos was selectively enforcing the rules. It's about what he actually saw. If he didn't see hand signals by other coaches, then he wouldn't issue the code violation. In this instance, he did see hand signals by Serena's coach. Who knows, Serena's coach may have done it earlier in the match too, so have Osaka's coach. Yes, other coaches do it too, even in not so obvious ways, but they're taking a gamble to be caught. To me, it's irresponsible, and not worth the risk. The simple thing is not to do it, period. Serena is the greatest player of all times for crying out loud, she doesn't need hand signals from her coach or anyone.
 
I’m torn on how I should feel, but what it comes down to is that the coach actually admitted to it after the fact. No matter how many times it has happened and gotten away with in the past, it’s not as if Ramos was reaching for some small technicality that would’ve had people pulling out the rulebooks. He saw it, and he chose to do something about it. AND then because of what the coach chose to do, Serena let it get to her and it spiraled into something more that ultimately caused the bigger problems.

I get that people are pissed that Serena becomes the poster child for the longstanding problem, but I’d rather it get called in the end than ignored. And I feel the same way when it comes to skating or even the head of household competition of something as silly as Big Brother last week- if rules are in place and there is evidence that this rule is being broken/not followed, then something should always be done versus letting it slide.
 
I just hate that Osaka didn’t have a better experience with winning her first major title. She was GREAT today and deserved to be the U.S. Open Champion.

The crowd’s incessant booing - especially during the trophy ceremony - was completely unacceptable. I can’t believe that Osaka felt the need to apologize. :( :mad:
 
hydro said:
The first code violation should have never happened. Ramos inserted himself into the match. Then the third violation was an absolute a travesty. She didn’t curse, she didn’t smash anything else, she called him out on what she perceived as an injustice only to be given one of the worst calls in tennis history. I’ll be shocked if Ramos umpires again, that was a gross injustice of his authority.
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the bolded sentence.:rolleyes:

Serena always behaves like an entitled brat (like her BFF Wozniacki). And to bring her daughter into it... just pathetic. She has done this several times now, why is it always when she loses?
 
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Are you giving MOI a violation??? You are a thief! You will never ref a game again! Try to respect the woman on the other side of the net by not making a spectacle.

Congratulations to Osaka, the better player in the game who deservedly won the title. Funny how the only one who had nothing to excuse herself for was the one who did. The booing crowd can go to H.
 
Wow, Serena always manages to make herself the center of attention, but this took the cake.

Let's see...Serena loses her composure and creates a senseless spectacle that completely derails the match and overshadows the winning accomplishment of the eventual champion, and yet somehow she manages to come out looking like a victim of sexism, a martyr for women's rights, and a gracious motherly figure for comforting Osaka amidst the loud boos that greeted her during her winning ceremony--boos that came as a direct result of drama created and stoked solely by Serena.

Then Osaka, in what should be a joyous and celebratory moment, tearfully apologizes to the crowd for winning, and then thanks Serena for playing her.

In the end, it was all about Serena. Gotta say...that is some masterful narcissist A-game there.
 
Serena was clearly unfairly treated by the umpire. Without that interference she might have played much better and may be even won. I cant believe that some people are criticizing her instead of the umpire. It seems that umpire did not want Serena to break any records (Margaret Court's?). He should be made to explain and may be even suspended for ruining what could have been a great women's final. I have no problem with the crowd booing him.

I am seeing a lot of sexism in some of the posts here. Male players whine and question calls all the time, without any consequences. Serena has confidence like any top athlete. They need it in order to win. It does not mean she feels entitled. She is the winningest woman in tennis in the modern era, but she gets slammed. They would not dare do that to Nadal or Federer or Djokovic.
 
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Serena was way out of line and totally imploded on that court. She was clearly being outplayed before the coaching warning and took her frustration at her inability to match Naomi's level of play out on the umpire. This isn't something new for Serena unfortunately - she has a track record for this sort of behaviour especially at the US Open. Was the coaching warning valid - yes, should it have been called - according to the rules yes as well. Now should the umpire - one of the most respected in the game - have called it in the final of the US Open knowing what Serena is like - there in lies the question. Still it was just a warning. Serena should - and could - have handled it better but she was clearly frustrated with her level of play and decided focusing on the umpire was her release valve. The 2nd warning which got her the point violation was 100% valid - smashing a racket always gets a warning and as this was Serena's 2nd one that was the point gone. The lose of the game was Serena refusing to calm down. She screamed her way into that warning and thus the lose of a game.

And why does Serena have to bring her daughter into every situation. She was screaming at the umpire about how she wasn't a cheat and that she has a daughter who she has to do right by. Well Serena when your daughter is old enough and watches those scenes I am unclear how she will see that as doing right by her.

Naomi is the one who gets my sympathy here. She was in tears at the trophy presentation and apologised for winning - WTF!!!!!!! The booing that was going on - especially as Ramos had left the court at that point - was totally unacceptable. Yes I know Serena tried to calm people down but it didn't work. What should have been the highlight of Naomi's tennis career up to this point was clouded and coloured by Serena's behaviour. Hopefully this is just the first GS of Naomi's career and she can enjoy the winning feeling then as she clearly felt a large portion crowd hated her here and was unable to celebrate as she deserved after outplaying her childhood idol.

I lived and worked in NYC for over 20 years and know how passionate New Yorkers treat their sport - but they were ugly and nasty last night and not a great advert for NYC at all. Shame on them.
 
I think Serena Williams is equal to another American (former) tennis player = John McEnroe, both have equally bad manners on the tennis court...
 
Vash01 said:
Serena was clearly unfairly treated by the umpire. Without that interference she might have played much better and may be even won. I cant believe that some people are criticizing her instead of the umpire. It seems that umpire did not want Serena to break any records (Margaret Court's?). He should be made to explain and may be even suspended for ruining what could have been a great women's final. I have no lroblem with the crowd booing him.

I am seeing a lot of sexism in some of the posts here. Male players whine and question calls all the time, without any consequences. Serena has confidence like any top athlete. They need it in order to win. It does not mean she feels entitled. She is the winningest woman in tennis in the modern era, but she gets slammed. They would not dare do that to Nadal or Federer or Djokovic.
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Of course it's that he didn't want her to break any records, I mean what else could it be, right?:

https://youtu.be/NJm_oYcDMkM
 
muffinplus said:
Of course it's that he didn't want her to break any records, I mean what else could it be, right?:

https://youtu.be/NJm_oYcDMkM
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The sexist argument is ridiculous. Yes, men too get warnings and violations for behaving badly.
People saying McEnroe was idolized for his bad boy behaviour have no clue, he was hated and booed (while Borg was idolized) and was disqualified in the fourth round in Australian Open after 1) bad conduct towards a lineswoman 2) throwing his racket. 3) swearing to the umpire. Thrown out of the game, boom.

And just imagine if it would have been a male player telling that female line judge, I think Serena's words were "I swear to God I'll ****ing take the ball and shove it down your ****ing throat."
Honestly, in my whole life I have never spoken to a woman like that, and I will never do.

For all the talk about respect for women, Serena does not walk the walk.

It's about respect to the player on the other side to not go wild with a spectacle.
Calls will always go against you in any sport, you take it and move on.
 
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Lorac, great post!
skatesindreams said:
The entire incident is regrettable. No one knows how the match would have proceeded, had it not happened.
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I agree, I would have loved to see the whole match without the drama, but Osaka was clearly outplaying Serena, including serves, groundstrokes, movement, consistency, etc.

As for the CNN article, I disagree with Christine Brennan:
We know that there's quite a history to it. Think of John McEnroe, think of Ilie Nastase, Jimmy Connors, Andre Agassi. These men all berated chair umpires, famously so. Commercials have been made. McEnroe has done, 'you can't be serious' and all the other tirades, top of his lungs over the years and none of them received a game penalty.
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Ramos issued 3 code violations correctly. The game penalty against Serena came after the first 2 code violations. Serena should know better; you think she would after the “shove it down your throat” match vs Kim.
allezfred said:
My issue is not with Serena who was magnanimous and gracious in defeat. Any members of a crowd that boos at an award ceremony for athletes (no excuses where you are from ) just have a lack of respect.
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Hmm, I just rewatched the whole match, especially on the hand signal part. For me, Serena caused the boos from the crowd. Most of the crowd was pro Serena from the get go; the umpire’s mic is usually turned off, so they didn’t get the full story. The hatred and constant outburst by Serena were so over the top. She was berating Ramos to no end, even though she said, “then don’t talk to me!”…then she continued, so weird.

Serena was not that innocent after all . When Osaka was serving 40-15 from 0-1 on the 2nd set, Serena gave a look to her coach, and within 3 seconds, Ramos gave out the 1st code violation, a warning. Serena claimed that it was a “thumbs up”, and by saying that, she indirectly admitted she was looking at her coach. I’ll take back my initial post, Serena was indeed cheating! If she didn’t give eye contact, she was innocent. Chris Everett even said Serena did see the hand signals, and came to net, thus winning some points. Here’s the ESPN replay (at the 50:44 mark for the eye contact); not sure if you need a subscription:

http://www.espn.com/watch/player?categoryId=127&id=3426026

Here’s the YouTube video of the drama in its entirety that the audience didn’t hear/see, including her press conference. She was clearly lying regarding the cheating part:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiBrForlj-k
 
jenny12 said:
I’m with Serena. There is a history of policing women’s anger, especially black women’s anger and I’m glad she spoke out about this. I’ve seen much worse behavior from men in sports but they are usually praised for being passionate while women are shamed for the same thing.
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While I agree that she definitely has a point in that regard, this particular umpire seems to have a record of being very strict with the rules. He consistently hands out warnings to top male players for rule violations. In this respect, his behaviour was very much in line with how he's umpired for both men's and women's matches. I don't see why he should be more lenient with Serena.

https://youtu.be/NJm_oYcDMkM
 
Lorac said:
This isn't something new for Serena unfortunately - she has a track record for this sort of behaviour especially at the US Open. Was the coaching warning valid - yes, should it have been called - according to the rules yes as well. Now should the umpire - one of the most respected in the game - have called it in the final of the US Open knowing what Serena is like - there in lies the question. Still it was just a warning.
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Exactly. It was a warning. Even if Ramos was wrong in the "coaching" call, she could have brushed it off, returned to the game, and kept the priority on beating Osaka. Isn't that the real point of these championship matches?

Plus, Serena still has the explain the destroying of the racket - which every player knows is a mandatory violation. Was that an incorrect call? And at that time, Serena was leading the second set 3-2.

BTW - Richard Ings: It is Serena Williams who owes an apology to umpire Carlos Ramos. Ings was the chair umpire in the 1987 McEnroe game penalty match.

Of course there is a double standard in the way women get talked about. But in terms of getting penalized for mouthing off, the idea that men get away with saying anything is just simply not the case.
 
jenny12 said:
I’m with Serena. There is a history of policing women’s anger, especially black women’s anger and I’m glad she spoke out about this. I’ve seen much worse behavior from men in sports but they are usually praised for being passionate while women are shamed for the same thing.
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Exactly. That is my issue. Serena had faced a lot of racism early in her career. I remember reading about an incident in California. She has fought back and climbed to the top through hard work and her natural talent. she has to deal with sexism as well as racism even now, which is sad.

Actually I don't see how a player could be coached by someone sitting in the audience. It Would be too distracting to look there. The rule itself seems strange and apparently it is being selectively used.
 
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Vash01 said:
Exactly. That is my issue. Serena has faced a lot of racism early in her career. I remember reading about an incident in California. She has fought back and climbed to the top through hard work and her natural talent. she has to deal with sexism as well as racism even now, which is sad.

Actually I don't see how a player could be coached by someone sitting in the audience. It Would be too distracting to look there. The rule itself seems strange and apparently it is being selectively used.
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Very easily. Hand signals indicate what strategy the player should apply. There's a clear history of side coaching throughout tennis. And Serena got caught yesterday by an umpire who has a clear history of being very strict with the rules. Steffi Graf has been warned for this due to alleged side coaching from her father back in the 80s. I recall Martina Hingis getting warned twice in 2 different matches due to alleged coaching from her mother (one of which was the 2000 U.S Open semifinals).

While I agree that Serena has faced a lot of sexism and racism throughout her career, I don't feel that what happened yesterday is an example of that. As mentioned, Carlos Ramos has a clear and documented history of strictly following and applying the rules. I don't think it would be fair for him to treat Serena more leniently.
 
gk_891 said:
Very easily. Hand signals indicate what strategy the player should apply. There's a clear history of side coaching throughout tennis. And Serena got caught yesterday by an umpire who has a clear history of being very strict with the rules. Steffi Graf has been warned for this due to alleged side coaching from her father back in the 80s. I recall Martina Hingis getting warned twice in 2 different matches due to alleged coaching from her mother (one of which was the 2000 U.S Open semifinals).

While I agree that Serena has faced a lot of sexism and racism throughout her career, I don't feel that what happened yesterday is an example of that. As mentioned, Carlos Ramos has a clear and documented history of strictly following and applying the rules. I don't think it would be fair for him to treat Serena more leniently.
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If that is the case (seen easily) the rule should be applied every time, or at least as often as the Pass interference penalty in football and there the unpires are not focusing on certain players to penalize. Most are honest mistakes. That does not appear to be the case here.
 
Vash01 said:
If that is the case (seen easily) the rule should be applied every time, or at least as often as the Pass interference penalty in football and there the unpires are not focusing on certain players to penalize. Most are honest mistakes. That does not appear to be the case here.
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But it can only be applied when umpires see the hand signals, despite it being obvious to spectators, commentators, etc. Umpires can't take the word from spectators, etc. I have played in too many USTA league matches when calls were obvious to bystanders, but not to umpires.
 
Vash01 said:
If that is the case (seen easily) the rule should be applied every time, or at least as often as the Pass interference penalty in football and there the unpires are not focusing on certain players to penalize. Most are honest mistakes. That does not appear to be the case here.
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I do agree that the rules should be applied consistently or not applied at all. But being that umpires are human and not robots, they can only hand out warnings based on violations that they actually see with their own eyes. If Ramos had missed the hand signals from Serena's coach, he likely wouldn't have given Serena that warning. But he did see them and so he did rightfully gave Serena that warning which was fair.

At Wimbledon this year, Ramos gave a warning to Djokovic for racket abuse in the QF but Novak accused him of double standards because he didn't give Kei Nishikori the same warning when Kei threw his racket. But apparently Ramos didn't see Kei throw his racket. So he didn't give Kei that warning. So yes, the system in which warnings are handed out is deeply flawed and needs to be changed. But that doesn't excuse Serena for her behaviour towards Ramos. He applied the rules like he always does.
 
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