Champs Camp August 18-23, 2018

[haribobo]

Megan's score from Glacier Falls (171) is 18 points higher than Katie's highest score this summer (153). I wouldn't say USFS is "not willing to invest" in Katie, they just gave the spot to the person who scored higher. Wouldn't you? I am sure Katie will get an assignment somewhere, but not on the GP this year.

We have plenty of very capable US ladies already competing in pairs that I think aren't getting much credit in your post. We already have Tarah, Alexa, Ashley, Deanna, Haven, Jessica, Nica, Winter, Audrey...throwing Katie into that mix to learn pairs after the age of 20 isn't going to make much, or any, difference. We have about 10 teams capable of finishing in the 10-15 range at Worlds. Having Aljona, Duhamel/Radford, Hao Zhang, James/Cipres, Marchei/Hotarek around for billions of years has made it difficult for other teams to move up internationally.

Plug Kayne/O'Shea and Cain/LeDuc 4CC scores into Worlds and they finish 11th and 12th there. Knierims would be 13th with their Olympic score. A lot of countries use Euros results to determine their Worlds entries. If we used 4cc, we might have just sent Kayne and Cain to worlds. Well Kayne was injured, but then Cain. With Rogonov getting a new partner, Duskova/Bidar, Marchei/Hotarek, Aljona, Duhamel/Radford, Lubov/Dylan all retiring, and Sui/Han and Yu/Zhang injured, perhaps US pairs can have a decent showing on the GP and gain a little ground. There will still be new Russian teams like Efimova/Korovin, Pavliuchenko/Khodykin, and Boikova/Kozlovskii to deal with, so I think seeing how US top teams competes against those and the newer Canadians like Ruest/Wolfe and Walsh/Michaud will be telling.

I also think other tweaks could be made, such as leaving 2 Skate America spots TBD instead of 1. Perhaps get both Calalang/Johnson and Digerness/Neudecker on the big stage instead of making one team wait.

Also we only have 2 age eligible junior teams that are somewhat competitive on JGP. Something to think about I guess....sorry for the thread drift...

 

[Cleo1782]

Megan's score from Glacier Falls (171) is 18 points higher than Katie's highest score this summer (153). I wouldn't say USFS is "not willing to invest" in Katie, they just gave the spot to the person who scored higher. Wouldn't you? I am sure Katie will get an assignment somewhere, but not on the GP this year.

We have plenty of very capable US ladies already competing in pairs that I think aren't getting much credit in your post. We already have Tarah, Alexa, Ashley, Deanna, Haven, Jessica, Nica, Winter, Audrey...throwing Katie into that mix to learn pairs after the age of 20 isn't going to make much, or any, difference. We have about 10 teams capable of finishing in the 10-15 range at Worlds. Having Aljona, Duhamel/Radford, Hao Zhang, James/Cipres, Marchei/Hotarek around for billions of years has made it difficult for other teams to move up internationally.

Plug Kayne/O'Shea and Cain/LeDuc 4CC scores into Worlds and they finish 11th and 12th there. Knierims would be 13th with their Olympic score. A lot of countries use Euros results to determine their Worlds entries. If we used 4cc, we might have just sent Kayne and Cain to worlds. Well Kayne was injured, but then Cain. With Rogonov getting a new partner, Duskova/Bidar, Marchei/Hotarek, Aljona, Duhamel/Radford, Lubov/Dylan all retiring, and Sui/Han and Yu/Zhang injured, perhaps US pairs can have a decent showing on the GP and gain a little ground. There will still be new Russian teams like Efimova/Korovin, Pavliuchenko/Khodykin, and Boikova/Kozlovskii to deal with, so I think seeing how US top teams competes against those and the newer Canadians like Ruest/Wolfe and Walsh/Michaud will be telling.

I also think other tweaks could be made, such as leaving 2 Skate America spots TBD instead of 1. Perhaps get both Calalang/Johnson and Digerness/Neudecker on the big stage instead of making one team wait.

Also we only have 2 age eligible junior teams that are somewhat competitive on JGP. Something to think about I guess....sorry for the thread drift...

McBeath scored 162 at Skate Detroit and had the slightly higher free skate score. No big deal. I don't think it matters if we give Wessenberg the spot. I was just throwing pairs out there. Like you said we have the maximum spots for the JGP in pairs and no teams to give them too. Just something for younger skaters to think about. Certainly not selling any current pair girl short. Pairs is my favorite discipline.

 

[JJS5056]

The 'push her into pairs' strategy is one that I hope is on its way out the door in the U.S. Unless done at the junior level, it's never been more than a desperate move that results in two skaters being watered down to their lowest common denominator, rather than building toward a combined peak. If this strategy were at all successful, we should be seeing skaters like Stellato and Cain throwing SBS Flips, for example, and not struggling at times with jumps like 3T.

More importantly, U.S. pairs has remained outside the top tier of international teams because of GOE on pair elements and PCS. A 23-year old mid-tier singles skater is not going to be earning +5 on a 3Tw by the end of her first pair season, nor is she likely to be earning 8's in any PC category.

I like how many pairs I recognize on the list for this year compared to the past, where it seemed to be a lot more skewed toward 'X/new partner' which gives me hope that at least one other desperate move - the 'switch partners and you'll be a star' one - is almost extinct. That isn't to say that there are bad fits or surprise pairings (hi Bruno), just that it'll be fun to see how scores of some of these teams stack up on the GP compared to prior years, and whether we'll see stagnation or stabilization (stability?).

 

[hoptoad]

I agree that "push-her-into-pairs" is a bad strategy in general, but IMO neither Stellato nor Cain are examples of that.

Stellato, although very successful as a singles skater until her injury, was not pushed into pairs. She is sui generis. She is amazingly driven, and no one is pushing her into anything.

Cain competed pairs as a junior and seemed to prefer it to singles. She wasn't pushed either. She has good pairs skills, and if anything is holding her back it's her height, which allows less room for error on both jumps and pair elements.

 

[Spiralgraph]

I agree that "push-her-into-pairs" is a bad strategy in general, but IMO neither Stellato nor Cain are examples of that.

Stellato, although very successful as a singles skater until her injury, was not pushed into pairs. She is sui generis. She is amazingly driven, and no one is pushing her into anything.

Cain competed pairs as a junior and seemed to prefer it to singles. She wasn't pushed either. She has good pairs skills, and if anything is holding her back it's her height, which allows less room for error on both jumps and pair elements.

I agree wholeheartedly. Deanna was 32 when she teamed up with Nate Bartholomay. She saw an opportunity to learn a new discipline that would get her back into skating and jumped at it. No pushing there. As for Ashley Cain, she probably realized returning to pairs was a better option for her than not achieving the top results in singles. Plus she's not a teenybopper either, she's an adult; again, I don't see any pushing for her either.

 

[Carolla5501]

I doubt those skaters will be crying all night because they weren’t included in a group pic

And you never know. The "updated" group photo could include everyone. (you don't actually have to get them all in the room together. Just ask Vanity Fair although one should hire a better photo editor then they did)

 

[mgobluegirl]

I’m conflicted... I agree that pushing someone into pairs and expecting overnight success is unrealistic, but I don’t think that the developmental levels in pair skating, as they exist in the US, are worth very much in terms of developing high-quality senior level pairs skaters or teams. I wish that more talented novice and junior level freestylers would be “nudged” in that direction. Sarah Feng is a nice example of a very solid, though not “top” singles skater who I’ve enjoyed seeing find some success in pairs (yes, I know she used to be an ice dancer. I liked her then too). I wished Hannah Miller had given pairs a try years ago (I still think it would be interesting to see if she decided now to try it).

 

[peibeck]

Many thanks to everyone who posted links of photos and Instagram and Twitter links!

As a side note, it takes a LOT of extra training starting pairs later. Consequently, more cost, higher risk of injury (which is already high in pairs), and more time on the ice devoted to skating to get up to speed to pass senior level tests. Then the chances of breaking through starting late have to be considered as well. The success of a Deanna/Nate pairing is unusual. 20-somethings are generally working on college, have jobs, thinking about (or involved in) relationships. The financial and time sacrifice to pursue a difficult World or Olympic team spot versus "adulting" is a choice the athlete really has to want, not just "consider."

 

[once_upon]

I think the push to pairs has always been a bad strategy. I believe the girl needs a commitment to the discipline early on to be willing to take on the high risk elements of pairs. The - she has the singles skills that could lead to consistently land jumps so she can make a difference in US pairs - thinking is not a good reason to enter into pairs skating.

 

[Cleo1782]

I think 'pushing her into pairs' was me misspeaking. I meant give her the option. Not because I think it's some wasteland for mid-tier skaters or I expect McBeath to get +5's on pair elements in a year, but pair girls seem to have longer careers and starting out young in pairs is ideal, but you grow and change. Alexa, Ashley, Deanna, Jessica Calalang have all had success to different degrees as singles skaters. None of them started solely in pairs. Tarah Kayne was a singles skater with no pair experience before Danny. Haven is the only one I can think of that has done pairs since the beginning. Russia and China direct girls and guys into pairs it works out for them. I am not sure why it's a bad strategy to recommend someone try pairs if they are stuck in a position where they most likely won't make it internationally in singles. I am not saying hold a gun to their head, but maybe throwing it out there would be an option. The lack of depth in junior pairs is troubling. A good portion of our Novice and Junior ladies have 2 triples and don't make it out of sectionals. I don't think we are thinking broadly enough to develop younger teams. McBeath is neither here nor there.

 

[hoptoad]

I do think "give her the option" to try pairs is a good idea. It's not a feasible option for many though, since it depends on having a good pairs coach nearby, and a potential partner to at least practice with, and the extra funds to do so in an already expensive sport. What's problematic too is the idea that pairs is for those who can't make it as singles skaters.

Actively recruiting skaters with pairs potential in the lower ranks can be a good thing. For example, I think Mary Beth Marley did an outstanding job of picking up pairs quickly with Rocke Brubaker, and had great long term potential. It's too bad she was under such pressure with a high profile partner and she did not continue.

Sorry for the thread drift - we'll be back on topic as more news about Champs Camp emerges.

 

[Tavi]

First article to emerge from Champs Camp, by LynnR about Denney/Frazier - hope we will see more from her on other skaters:

http://www.usfigureskatingfanzone.c...amp-2018-denney-frazier-hit-the-reset-button/

 

[peibeck]

Russia and China direct girls and guys into pairs it works out for them. I am not sure why it's a bad strategy to recommend someone try pairs if they are stuck in a position where they most likely won't make it internationally in singles. I am not saying hold a gun to their head, but maybe throwing it out there would be an option. The lack of depth in junior pairs is troubling. A good portion of our Novice and Junior ladies have 2 triples and don't make it out of sectionals. I don't think we are thinking broadly enough to develop younger teams. McBeath is neither here nor there.

In China the federation is paying for the training and development, and at higher levels in Russia as well (at least, I believe that is still correct). In the U.S. the skater and their family are shouldering the whole bill unless a team is able to get envelope funding. I think that is a major factor, and I believe our lack of depth in pairs is troubling (and not just at the junior level) and that is creeping into other disciplines as well. Who would've thought 20 years ago that Dance would be the US's strongest discipline???

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I believe Russia's ladies' singles recruiting system is such, that when babies are born, later that day they are driven to the Sambo 70 school to start learning quadruples.

 

[mollymgr]

I believe Russia's ladies' singles recruiting system is such, that when babies are born, later that day they are driven to the Sambo 70 school to start learning quadruples.

This could easily pass as a plot for a new Hollywood Sci-Fi thriller.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

First article to emerge from Champs Camp, by LynnR about Denney/Frazier - hope we will see more from her on other skaters:

http://www.usfigureskatingfanzone.c...amp-2018-denney-frazier-hit-the-reset-button/

I love this team. Here's hoping Haven can get her individual jumps more consistent this season, too.

 

[Coco]

Not to be obtuse, but how is the US able to be so strong in dance and yet so weak in pairs? Is it a practice time issue? I'm assuming dance lifts, spins and step sequences are easier to practice on crowded sessions, while pairs elements require renting out the whole sheet of ice? I clearly have no clue what goes into this, but it is striking how the US is so strong in one discipline and weak in the other.

 

[skatingguy]

Not to be obtuse, but how is the US able to be so strong in dance and yet so weak in pairs? Is it a practice time issue? I'm assuming dance lifts, spins and step sequences are easier to practice on crowded sessions, while pairs elements require renting out the whole sheet of ice? I clearly have no clue what goes into this, but it is striking how the US is so strong in one discipline and weak in the other.

If you're a parent putting time and money into your child's skating, or a child wanting to be like the skaters you see on television in the US what are you going to want to right now - dance or pairs? Ice dance has become America's best discipline, which is really kind of shocking considering where things were 20 years ago, and it's now been 20 years since the US had World medal in pairs. Success breeds success, and it takes a major event (like the collapse of a superpower) to change the direction when something is struggling.

 

[Dobre]

Success breeds success, and it takes a major event (like the collapse of a superpower) to change the direction when something is struggling.

Well, Ina & Zimmerman were training with Moskvina after the collapse of that superpower. And he's only just really broken through on the international coaching scene with James & Cipres. There's a lot of high-risk excitement value in international pairs that really should appeal to some personalities within the young athlete population. The opportunity is there if young athletes want to go after it.

 

[Willin]

Other than success breeding success I would also add that there's not many pair's coaches out there in the US to recruit students.
While there's obviously Ina and Zimmerman in Florida (where there aren't many skaters to recruit in the first place), the Cains in Texas, and Dalilah in Colorado, there's very few coaches or top teams outside of those two places. Not only that, but since so few skaters want to go into pairs (and pairs teams last short amounts of time even at lower levels) a lot of pairs coaches in my area just end up coaching singles for a steady income unless a pairs team comes to them.

While some people are really against pairing up skaters into pairs, I do think that USFSA should be making a push to make more pairs or at least support younger pairs. Maybe provide pairs-specific funding for lower levels to encourage Juvenile and Intermediate skaters to go on that path or have the High Performance Team start scouting potential pairs skaters at the lower levels.
I also think there's a lot of skaters like Emmanuel Savary or Hannah Miller that won't be world class in Senior singles, but could have the ability to make a great pair's skater. I know pair's takes extra training, but pair's skaters also tend to have long careers - half the pair's skaters that made the Olympic podium were over 30, and Hao Zhang thinks he can make it to 2022 when he's pushing 40. Deanna Stellato's 35. If they want that extra training and are dedicated to it they'll have plenty of time to become a pair's skater.
Now, do I think they should be forced to do it if they don't want to? No. But I do think that they should be encouraging skaters to at least try pairs if there's a chance for them to be good at it.

 

[vesperholly]

Not to be obtuse, but how is the US able to be so strong in dance and yet so weak in pairs? Is it a practice time issue? I'm assuming dance lifts, spins and step sequences are easier to practice on crowded sessions, while pairs elements require renting out the whole sheet of ice? I clearly have no clue what goes into this, but it is striking how the US is so strong in one discipline and weak in the other.

Pairs is particularly rough at the moment but historically it hasn't been all that bad. Meno/Sand medaled at Worlds 3 times in the late 90s, Watson/Oppergard and the Carruthers have Olympic and World medals in the 80s.

I think it's a cultural thing - there's just no strong tradition of pairs in the US. Dance changed with IJS, when our coaches figured out how to work the scoring system vs politicking.

 

[Willin]

@vesperholly With the advent of solo dance there's also been a lot more skaters simply learning the dances and learning them earlier. While I'm sure that's not affecting elite dance quite yet, I'm sure it is increasing the awareness of ice dance and the number of coaches able to coach dances. Unfortunately it's not increasing the number of dance judges quite yet.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

US pair teams have done quite well at the international junior level.

I'm still disappointed that two junior world championships winning couples, Vlassov / Meekins, and McLaughlin / Brubaker never stuck together for any length of time at the senior level. They really had a lot of potential.

It's almost like, if medal - winning results don't happen immediately, why bother.

 

[overedge]

US pair teams have done quite well at the international junior level.

I'm still disappointed that two junior world championships winning couples, Vlassov / Meekins, and McLaughlin / Brubaker never stuck together for any length of time at the senior level. They really had a lot of potential.

It's almost like, if medal - winning results don't happen immediately, why bother.

Agreed, which is particularly frustrating when a pair needs time to develop as a pair. For those two pairs, as well, each had the involvement of a parent (Vlassov's dad and McLaughlin's mom) who themselves had been an elite-level pairs skater. I wonder if there were higher expectations of them because of that, and whether those expectations turned out to be just too much pressure.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Vlassov grew, though, and that's not something Pairs can control, and Meekins had a shoulder injury, which can be insurmountable. Those are other reasons why junior success can't always translate to seniors.

 

[Maximillian]

Pairs is particularly rough at the moment but historically it hasn't been all that bad. Meno/Sand medaled at Worlds 3 times in the late 90s, Watson/Oppergard and the Carruthers have Olympic and World medals in the 80s.

You forgot to mention probably the biggest pairs stars the U.S. has ever had, Tai and Randy, who were World Champions and who I believe started skating together as little kids while continuing to skate singles for a long time. Obviously, the Carruthers were the same as well. I suppose it's a money/time issue, but to start kids early skating pairs would also probably help a lot.

 

[soogar]

Not to be obtuse, but how is the US able to be so strong in dance and yet so weak in pairs? Is it a practice time issue? I'm assuming dance lifts, spins and step sequences are easier to practice on crowded sessions, while pairs elements require renting out the whole sheet of ice? I clearly have no clue what goes into this, but it is striking how the US is so strong in one discipline and weak in the other.

Doesn't surprise me because dance is the safer discipline and does not require jumps. I think most Americans who can jump would stay and try to improve in singles as opposed to paying more money and taking more physical risk for pairs. Injuries are not cheap- I wonder how those older athletes are able to train and pay for insurance that would cover all that damage.

US was never really weak in ice dance. The rules have changed that eliminated a lot of the favoritism and country support that happened under 6.0, and the style has also become more ballroom oriented which is how US ice dance always was. So the sport evolved to favor a North American style of ice dance. My opinion only but if you watch old US ice dance competitions , late 80's early 90s, they looked like ballroom competitions. Very much like they do today.

 

[Debbie S]

Back to the subject of Champs Camp...

It looks like it ended last night. Per social media, skaters are leaving this morning. I guess USFS figured out how to condense the program into fewer days.

Hopefully, articles and vids will start appearing on the Fan Zone page soon.

 

[thvu]

I just want to know music for the ice dancers!

 

[Dobre]

US was never really weak in ice dance. The rules have changed that eliminated a lot of the favoritism and country support that happened under 6.0, and the style has also become more ballroom oriented which is how US ice dance always was. So the sport evolved to favor a North American style of ice dance. My opinion only but if you watch old US ice dance competitions , late 80's early 90s, they looked like ballroom competitions. Very much like they do today.

I strongly disagree. The rule changes certainly made movement more possible; and, therefore, helped a great deal of quality coaching, hard work, and risk-taking to pay off; but the U.S. dance program began to crack the international rankings prior to IJS. Dance teams broke through at Junior Worlds first. Acknowledging a weakness and the potential for improvement is the first step, but we can chat about it in the Dance Hall if you'd care to continue the discussion.