Dick Button's lament

Spun Silver said:
To paraphrase: you're a Russian and you don't see offense when Sotnikova (ridicules? ignores? attacks? You didn't say) others. It wasn't just the American,skaters I was offended for.
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I listed links and video with Button's comments and speech.

You need to show me a segment or a proof where Sotnikova ridicules and attacks other country skaters.... I did not hear any. Her commentary is always professional in terms of language (talking too much and laughing is not an attack).
 
Is it true that Lipnitskaya called Nathan Chen and others fat during Pyeongchang? I read it in the PBP from a pretty reliable Russian translator we have here.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
Is it true that Lipnitskaya called Nathan Chen and others fat during Pyeongchang? I read it in the PBP from a pretty reliable Russian translator we have here.
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Ok.ru (where Lip is a commentator) is an internet feed, which is running its own sports coverage feed (on youtube or ok.ru site) has a "running chat" on the side of the screen, with many unidentified posters (some with 2-3 nicks), from many countries in various european and asian languages. That "chat" is unsensored. Horrible comments are made all the time against all skaters, from "Medvedeva, why don't you crack the bones in your dingy skinny legs" to "Horse mouth/teeth Kostner" to etc....

As to Lipnitskaya? calling Nathan fat?.... well, not unless she lost her eye-site and mind.... :D
https://media.vanityfair.com/photos...34/master/pass/Nathan-Chen-Rough-Olympics.jpg
 
Tinami Amori said:
I listed links and video with Button's comments and speech.

You need to show me a segment or a proof where Sotnikova ridicules and attacks other country skaters.... I did not hear any. Her commentary is always professional in terms of language (talking too much and laughing is not an attack).
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As I've already told you, I don't speak Russian and can't give you any specifics on Sotnikova. I would like you to tell me why she saw fit to laugh at/about/during all the non-Russian skaters? It was rude at the least.

The speech of Button's you linked to is not anti-Russian, it's anti-cheating. Are you in favor of cheating judges staying in the sport? Do you reject the whole narrative of cheating judges at Salt Lake City? Do you think cheating and bloc judging never happens/happened in the sport, or at least not by Russians? I am mystified by your calling that speech anti-Russian.
 
Tinami Amori said:
check previous post....
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/07/sports/sp-20905
- said about Irina “that position is ugly”


That's the thing! many fans/viewers like flexibility in a layback. As a national sports-caster Button should have said just that: not enough flexibility in a layback, or similar. But he said "fridge break", insulting and unproductive.
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Saying a position is ugly is not saying a skater is ugly or otherwise disparaging her looks. Button never did that.
 
Dick also disliked Michelle's layback position circa 1999. I don't remember if he used the word 'ugly' though.
 
Spun Silver said:
As I've already told you, I don't speak Russian and can't give you any specifics on Sotnikova. I would like you to tell me why she saw fit to laugh at/about/during all the non-Russian skaters? It was rude at the least.
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Rude to whom? you don't speak Russian, you have no idea what they said... and you're not subscribed to this private russian internet feed, it is not sold, advertised in your area, nor has international coverage. It is intended for Russians, and not for you to critique.

Dick Button held a different position on the major US Networks which secure the rights for international coverage.

In general, on the Russian skating feeds, Iolanda Chen talks non stop and all her commentary is full of “sugar and sweets” over the board. TAT talks, talks, talks and periodically exclaims and yelps. Sotnikova co-hosts occasionally with both of them, comments on elements (fairly well) and often gets side-tracked into discussions not related to the immediate performance, and they do laugh and exclaim, etc., usually during first 1-2-3 flights until last 2 flights of skaters. Never heard them laugh at a skater, EVER!
Spun Silver said:
The speech of Button's you linked to is not anti-Russian, it's anti-cheating. Are you in favor of cheating judges staying in the sport? Do you reject the whole narrative of cheating judges at Salt Lake City? Do you think cheating and bloc judging never happens/happened in the sport, or at least not by Russians? I am mystified by your calling that speech anti-Russian.
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Let's not start 2002 Oly judging discussion. His speech and the most of the 2002 issues are a Russian witch hunt. Canadian judges, as one example, have serious judging issues and obvious bias
giselle23 said:
Saying a position is ugly is not saying a skater is ugly or otherwise disparaging her looks. Button never did that.
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That’s right. no claim from me that he called Irina “ugly”, I said he referred to the elements of her skating as “ugly” and provided a link, and explained that it is an insult and not a constructive critique of an element.

Vagabond said:
Andrey aka Pushkin said:
Lipnitskaya called Chen "fat".
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- you need to ask Andrey if he was serious or joking. He does joke and trolls sometimes, by his own admission.. :lol:
- If he said it seriously, he could have misheard or misunderstood or meant something else, like “body mass is all muscles” (a typical comment).
- You did not hear it your self, you don’t speak Russian, Andrey’s words are technically hearsay on an event which came from a local Russian video feed, not a national or international network, not intended for people outside of the OK.ru’s subscription list.
- But even if she theoretically said Chen is “fat”: no comparison to Button’s NBC/ABC official sports channel commentary with international coverage. There is a difference between listening to a person speaking from a tribune in a public place, and someone picking into someone’s window to listen on a private conversation. Anything said on an almost private local internet feed like OK.ru is no foreigners’ business.
 
Tinami Amori said:
Rude to whom? you don't speak Russian, you have no idea what they said... and you're not subscribed to this private russian internet feed, it is not sold, advertised in your area, nor has international coverage. It is intended for Russians, and not for you to critique.

Dick Button held a different position on the major US Networks which secure the rights for international coverage.

In general, on the Russian skating feeds, Iolanda Chen talks non stop and all her commentary is full of “sugar and sweets” over the board. TAT talks, talks, talks and periodically exclaims and yelps. Sotnikova co-hosts occasionally with both of them, comments on elements (fairly well) and often gets side-tracked into discussions not related to the immediate performance, and they do laugh and exclaim, etc., usually during first 1-2-3 flights until last 2 flights of skaters. Never heard them laugh at a skater, EVER!

Let's not start 2002 Oly judging discussion. His speech and the most of the 2002 issues are a Russian witch hunt. Canadian judges, as one example, have serious judging issues and obvious bias

That’s right. no claim from me that he called Irina “ugly”, I said he referred to the elements of her skating as “ugly” and provided a link, and explained that it is an insult and not a constructive critique of an element.


- you need to ask Andrey if he was serious or joking. He does joke and trolls sometimes, by his own admission.. :lol:
- If he said it seriously, he could have misheard or misunderstood or meant something else, like “body mass is all muscles” (a typical comment).
- You did not hear it your self, you don’t speak Russian, Andrey’s words are technically hearsay on an event which came from a local Russian video feed, not a national or international network, not intended for people outside of the OK.ru’s subscription list.
- But even if she theoretically said Chen is “fat”: no comparison to Button’s NBC/ABC official sports channel commentary with international coverage. There is a difference between listening to a person speaking from a tribune in a public place, and someone picking into someone’s window to listen on a private conversation. Anything said on an almost private local internet feed like OK.ru is no foreigners’ business.
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Riiight, no claim that Uncle Dick called Irina ugly because when corrected by other posters, you edited your posts to erase that claim!

Honestly, I can't spend precious time arguing with someone with no intellectual integrity. Too bad, I share lots of your opinions, but this is too much.
 
Spun Silver said:
Riiight, no claim that Uncle Dick called Irina ugly because when corrected by other posters, you edited your posts to erase that claim!
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Haha! no i did not..... learn to read. here is my post #61. with a copy of the original link from LA times, which can't be edited...:p
Tinami Amori said:
For the record, i found few links (ref. to what i said above):
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/07/sports/sp-20905
- said about Irina “that position is ugly”
Click to expand...

Spun Silver said:
Honestly, I can't spend precious time arguing with someone with no intellectual integrity. Too bad, I share lots of your opinions, but this is too much.
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Don't worry, you'll live.
 
There is nothing wrong with Uncle Dick.

Uncle Dick just pisses some people off because he is the epitome of American Exceptionalism, and that can't change because it is his identity.

- He is American.
- He came into his prime immediately Post-WW II.
- He is American Champion.
- He is European Champion.
- He is World Champion.
- He is Two-Time Olympic Champion.
- He is the first to do a triple jump.
- He did his undergraduate work at Harvard after saying "up yours" to Princeton.
- He is a lawyer from Harvard Law.
- He is an Emmy Award winning TV personality.

Yes, he is arrogant and hypercritical because in his time he had the unassailable credentials to be just that.

Yes, he is an old GOAT, on multiple levels, so you might as well let it go.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
Dicks biggest critique was the free leg in a layback... if you couldn't get it up and turned out he would let you know....
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I actually thought Dick was very reserved in his criticism to Kwan. At 1999 USN they showed a sbs comparison of NNN and Kwan's layback. Clearly Kwan's was deficient in comparison, but Dick's criticism of Kwan was very reserved, since she was the golden girl. Dick was much more critical of non-US skaters, as was Peggy. But he preferred a well-turned out free leg as well as spiral. I do as well. And sometimes an ugly layback should be called ugly. You aren't calling the skater ugly just that position. How does someone improve if all feedback they receive is "Oh Laetitia Hubert, your layback is great!!" Sometimes a reality check is in order.
 
Anyone looking for commentary critical of Kwan can watch robin cousins call SLC for BBC, apparently sometime after Kwan ran over his dog, because it’s both catty and personal.
 
giselle23 said:
Saying a position is ugly is not saying a skater is ugly or otherwise disparaging her looks. Button never did that.
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I love TSL interviews and Tim Goebel gave one of the most in depth interviews I've heard in which he candidly discussed how Dick Button's cruel commentary could "destroy a skater's career." We think of it as merely harmless but the things that Dick said could affect how a skater is perceived by the public and the judges. Just because a skater physically may not be able to turn their foot out while doing a layback doesn't mean that the layback is poorly performed. Not all skaters will look like Sasha Cohen or John Curry but that doesn't mean that they are not skating to their music or making an effort to skate a cohesive program. I felt he was quite cruel to Angela Nikodinev who already was a fragile competitor. Not everyone is a great competitor with nerves of steel.
 
Dick's fridge break comment may have been mean but I remember it as more frustrated. Did he also say she was capable of doing better? I can't remember. Anyway Angela was boring until he said that. Then she became interesting to watch. A viewing of her before and after programs will tell you that quickly.
 
soogar said:
I love TSL interviews and Tim Goebel gave one of the most in depth interviews I've heard in which he candidly discussed how Dick Button's cruel commentary could "destroy a skater's career." I felt he was quite cruel to Angela Nikodinev who already was a fragile competitor. Not everyone is a great competitor with nerves of steel.
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While I agree his fridge break commentary was not 'nice', it was true. I felt like I died and turned into a mummy during that boring Mummy program that she gave no energy to (or maybe she was playing the character?). It was like she didn't even like the program herself and was just going through motions. As not nice as Dick's comment was, it did motivate Angela to move to that next level skating wise. It was like two different skaters. Sometimes constructive criticism works and is a motivation while others take it personally and react negatively to it. Everyone is different. Dick is being Dick. Take it or leave it, is my feeling on his commentary. I've never heard him say a comment that could be construed as being cruel just for the sake of being cruel. He's too refined to do that.
 
Being the gatekeeper of all things Nikodinov I feel I must interject.

She had the best transformation ever in skating. After Elena she became a different skater and person.

Yes, in the Mummy era she was all jumps... but good technique..

Then with Elena she became the full package and a skater that as of today has still to capture my interest in the extreme way she did.

Now, back into Angela meditations.
 
AngieNikodinovLove said:
She had the best transformation ever in skating. After Elena she became a different skater and person.
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I can never decide between Kwan and Angela's transformation as best. Both were amazing and showed a lot of effort.

Agree about the jumps. The best I could describe Angela pre-transformation was solid and wooden. I just wish we could have seen more of transformed Angela.
 
bardtoob said:
https://youtu.be/LpzzqvGkjUg?t=181
https://youtu.be/LpzzqvGkjUg?t=191
https://youtu.be/muywb3QoMGc?t=190
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yes, he was more tactful when commenting with Peggy, thanks to her style. also, the 2 tapes are from late 1990's, when Slutskaya was only a "potential" threat to US Girls and Kwan. His commentary changed by 2002.. :lol:

bardtoob said:
There is nothing wrong with Uncle Dick.
Uncle Dick just pisses some people off because he is the epitome of American Exceptionalism, and that can't change because it is his identity.
- He is American.
- He came into his prime immediately Post-WW II.
....
Yes, he is an old GOAT, on multiple levels, so you might as well let it go.
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:D I'll buy that!

giselle23 said:
But you disparaged a skater's looks. That was my point.
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you don't have a point, given what i said originally.
 
Tinami Amori said:
oops..... that's right! cupcake! (cupcakes were not too well known in russia then in late 90's).... it's the same to me, a fluffy pastry one should not eat.
Click to expand...

Cupcake (as a nickname) means cute and sweet, not fat, but when a much older man calls a very young woman a "cupcake," it is a little pervy :scream:
 
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