Pairs Discussion Thread 2017-18--"Two Skating as One"

[aftershocks]

^^ I thought I recently saw judges' nation listings for GP competitions. This seems like a recent development. Of course, it only makes it temporarily difficult to identify the judges' country affiliations.

ETA:
Thanks for bringing this discussion over from U.S. pairs thread @Sylvia. I thought the respective countries were being listed for GP event protocols. I didn't specifically notice for other major events. I would think the ISU doesn't want the national affiliations to be tied too closely to judging decisions. But obviously connections can be made with further research since the judging is no longer anonymous.

 

[aftershocks]

The description that ran with it certainly made it sound like the best in the world.

Right now, James/Cipres are one of the best in the world. There shouldn't be any reluctance to acknowledge that fact, nor hesitation for the judges to properly reward them when they deserve to be rewarded. J/C deserved silver at SC, and gold in France, especially under the circumstances of T/M's very poor showing in their TDF free skate. While Yu/Zhang can perform marvelous tricks, their lack of connection continues to hamper their ability to draw the audience fully into their skating. Yu is admirable in her effort to try her best, but her heart is definitely NOT in it. Her mind is halfway willing and her muscles do their job, but her heart is clearly missing. Nothing to be done about it either. I'd rather have seen James/Cipres at GPF than Y/Z.

Here are two montages that poignantly and beautifully capture that special something about James/Cipres' emotional connection:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSpYfcAO43o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dokX5dXAAoY
Thanks to Julie Wie for sharing.

I mean, it helps that they are super attractive

Hmmm, the majority of skaters are very attractive. I think it's J/C's connection mostly that shines from the inside out. It's also the way their team has found the right music and choreo to enhance what they've got in terms of skating talent and emotional connection. Of course they are attractive and fit, but so are Vlad and Evgenia -- but we see no connection between the latter two.

Meanwhile, T/M's horrid free program should not be rewarded so highly on PCS marks for interpretation and choreo. It's difficult to understand why Evgenia and Vlad can't get the right help to find better music and choreo to enhance their otherwise exceptional technical skills. It's mind-boggling.

In an article posted in other threads about Cain/LeDuc, Mozer is very heartily praised for her ability to see and to know exactly how to help a variety of pairs teams with technical concerns: https://europeonice.com/2018/01/03/cain-and-leduc-finding-that-perfect-moment/
Maybe some of Mozer's pairs should pick an Elton John song. T/M certainly need better choreo and music that's suited to them fast. Why did they stubbornly stick with the yellow with black-spotted catastrophe all season? I blame the judges and the constant snooty pandering to lovely technique and SS over developing an authentic style and finding a true connection on the ice. This Candyman type of program is a misguided cop-out that doesn't work. They need a different direction. Will more teams wish to seek out John Kerr's assistance? Many teams have certainly been trying to copy some of J/C's moves and their hot connection on the ice. When sizzle and magic chemistry comes naturally, it just does. When it doesn't, more work and careful thought and decision-making is needed to bring out the skaters' personalities. T/M are a couple too, so what's the difficulty?

I doubt that T/M's Candyman would go viral as an example of a mesmerizing pairs figure skating program. So what that T/M's skating skills are so admirable! They need to enhance who they are on the ice together or their fab SS are ultimately wasted.

Tarasova/Morozov do quad twist. There is not that many pairs who do that.

Yes, but not as spectacular as the Knierims' quad twist when they are in the zone and healthy. Also, Savchenko/Massot have a huge air-grabbing throw-triple twist which might as well be a quad twist for all the high GOE they get for it. I believe Sui/Han have tried the quad-twist as well, but I don't recall if they do it consistently.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Tarasova & Morozov's program this year is a nightmare. The music alone is gratingly annoying to listen to and see someone perform to, in less than a minute there is a feeling of irritation and boredom, let alone after 4 minutes.

 

[Lovemyvike]

Sound of Silence has been viral for a few months, which is awesome. I kind of wish that would prompt them to go back to it for the Olympics. It's pretty epic when they hit it.

A friend that doesn't follow skating was watching T/M's LP and was floored by the awful music cuts. Sad that it's that offputting for skating fans AND non skating fans.

I'm so, so sad about the very real possibility of no S/K at the Olympics. No other words for it. Just sad.

 

[nimi]

Good news re: Kim/Kam (who withdrew from 4CC because of a shoulder injury)

Korean media and the KSU have confirmed the injury is not serious and that they withdrew to focus on preparing for Olympics instead of pushing themselves here.

 

[Skittl1321]

Hmmm, the majority of skaters are very attractive. I think it's J/C's connection mostly that shines from the inside out. It's also the way their team has found the right music and choreo to enhance what they've got in terms of skating talent and emotional connection.

I'm only going on my sample size of 1- but my coworker was raving over how hot Vanessa was in the unitard, and how Morgan was gorgeous, and she loved how he was wearing "normal clothes" instead of a "figure skating outfit".

But yes, most athletes in general are very attractive, because they are in peak form. But some ARE better looking that others.

They did use costuming and music to their advantage well though.

This is not to say they are not incredible skaters as well. But the general public cares a bit less about actual skating.

 

[Xela M]

I'm so happy S&M were smart enough not to go to Russia! There was really nothing to gain and they would have inevitably lost to T&M

 

[Lovemyvike]

I'm only going on my sample size of 1- but my coworker was raving over how hot Vanessa was in the unitard, and how Morgan was gorgeous, and she loved how he was wearing "normal clothes" instead of a "figure skating outfit".

But yes, most athletes in general are very attractive, because they are in peak form. But some ARE better looking that others.

They did use costuming and music to their advantage well though.

This is not to say they are not incredible skaters as well. But the general public cares a bit less about actual skating.

That's so funny because that's EXACTLY what my friend who was visiting last weekend said. She looked the SOS (same one that was aghast at the random music mixes of T/M)

 

[nimi]

cross-posting from the US pairs thread...

The winning free skate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-W4pEgwbL0

The medal ceremony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2abnFEDM-w

(Americans & N. Koreans on the podium smiling and hugging... US & DPRK flags rising to the ceiling side by side... If this footage won't get used by some serious news outlets, I'm gonna be very disappointed!)

Feeling bad for both Luba&Dylan and Katia&Harley for underperforming. Those botched lifts were just yikes

But good for the US teams for delivering! All 3 got ISU PBs

Protocols: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/fc2018/fc2018_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf

 

[aftershocks]

Worthy victory by Kayne/OShea. They have the best choreographed fp. Skating first in the final group, they laid down a very good performance, with only a slight bobble on a middle jumping pass by Danny, which they went on to recover from. I'm so impressed too by the fight of Cain/LeDuc. They battled back under pressure in the fp to capture a medal after being in first place with a brilliant sp. It certainly shows how hard they worked after U.S. Nationals. Their best fp of the season was at Nationals, and their best sp of the season was at 4CCs.

This is great for K/O's resume heading into Worlds. It doesn't matter who was in Taipei and who wasn't. Every team still has to compete, and it was a close battle between the top six teams. Deanna/Nate were low-balled a bit skating early in the sp. And they won the fp over a subpar I/M. Dylan is apparently still suffering from his hand injury, and so they were just not at full strength. I/M should be proud of their bronze medal win at last year's 4CCs, and the strides they made at Worlds last year too.

Skating first in the final group, K/O's fp built wonderfully and they paced themselves beautifully throughout. They had to wait awhile to see how the other teams fared. With the camera showing them after Katia and Harley fell to 6th, Tarah tried to modulate her happiness, but Danny could not wipe the smile off his face. I wish the camera people wouldn't do a split screen in such instances of devastation for the team who drop out of contention. Furthermore, if they can do a split screen to pry for emotional reactions, why can't they do split screens during performances when they go in for closeups, so that we can have a full body shot of the skaters at all times!?

It would have been nice to see Katia and Harley on the podium too, but they rushed that final lift and couldn't keep it up in the air. It's awful they dropped so far in the standings when they were in a position to win, but no team can afford to lose that many points on an aborted move, when the competition is that tight. Even then, they were practically tied with 5th place Deanna/Nate by less than a point. It's all about the point differences which means completing all the elements and grabbing decent GOEs while not dropping too many points with mistakes.

ETA:
Some quick quotes by the pairs skaters after 4CCs fp:
http://cloud.isu.org/index.php/s/pDN5aUhkXQQl4hZ#pdfviewer

Look especially at Dylan's comments, but every captured quote from each team is worth taking a look at.

 

[nimi]

It would have been nice to see Katia and Harley on the podium too, but they rushed that final lift and couldn't keep it up in the air. It's awful they dropped so far in the standings when they were in a position to win, but no team can afford to lose that many points on an aborted move, when the competition is that tight. Even then, they were practically tied with 5th place Deanna/Nate by less than a point.

Had it been the final lift (4Li) they botched, they could've still placed 4th and been close to the bronze. But they had to abort their second lift (5ALi) which cost them 3 more points in BV and put them behind both I/M and S/B.

It's maybe not a coincidence that in their Jr free, Katia&Harley have been doing the 5RLi but not 5ALi. I'm sure they won't repeat this mistake in Pyeongchang, though.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

It was great to see the U.S pairs skate so well. It is a shame they couldnt do it at Nationals but amazing to do it here and go 1-2.

 

[nimi]

Olympic Fever podcast has a new episode with Nate B. talking about finding partner & skating pairs. Also featuring Meagan's mental coach Rebekah Dixon who explains how that process works. Plus Jackie Wong.

https://twitter.com/olymfever/status/956675769626976256

direct link to podcast: http://olymfever.com/episode-19-digging-on-figure-skating?tdest_id=578563

 

[Mad for Skating]

for crying out loud can we just have a nice pairs discussion?

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I am heartbroken Ksenia Stolbova wont be at the Games especialy when she didnt even fail a freaking doping test. If they are going to be this silly they might as well have just banned Russia altogether from this one Games, it would have looked better than this and the whole weird compromise thing they are doing.

 

[Mad for Skating]

@butyrskafanatic I agree! I love most skaters but Ksenia is special for me. She's one of the toughest people I know and she has so much talent that just hasn't come to fruition lately. I think they've truly given up the Olympics and are just looking towards Worlds. It's not fair, but I don't think it'll be overturned
I just want to give her a hug. She's been through hell and back for this; i cant imagine how hard this is for her (and Fedor, while we're at it). Hey, maybe they'll slay Worlds and she can give the IOC a major sassy face on the podium

 

[butyrskafanatic]

@butyrskafanatic I agree! I love most skaters but Ksenia is special for me. She's one of the toughest people I know and she has so much talent that just hasn't come to fruition lately. I think they've truly given up the Olympics and are just looking towards Worlds. It's not fair, but I don't think it'll be overturned
I just want to give her a hug. She's been through hell and back for this; i cant imagine how hard this is for her (and Fedor, while we're at it). Hey, maybe they'll slay Worlds and she can give the IOC a major sassy face on the podium

Wouldnt it be amazing if they won worlds ala Underhill & Martini. I just hope it isnt their last worlds even if they do win unlike Underhill & Martini. Do you know their plans post 2018.

 

[aftershocks]

It was great to see the U.S pairs skate so well. It is a shame they couldnt do it at Nationals but amazing to do it here and go 1-2.

The top U.S. pairs teams who went to 4CCs performed quite well at U.S. Nationals this year, aside from C/L not doing so well in the sp. Still C/L battled back at Nats to grab 4th place and a pewter medal. It was a great learning experience for them that primed them to concentrate on laying down a superb first place sp at 4CCs.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting C/L, K/O, and S-D/B couldn't 'do it' at Nationals. K/O did great at Nationals in both programs and earned their silver medal. As well, Deanna/Nate were quite fine at U.S. Nats in winning bronze. None of these teams were going to be selected for the Olympics over the Knierims, if that's what you are trying to reference. The Knierims would have had to heavily bomb, and they didn't, even despite not being in tip-top form at Nationals.

 

[Cleo1782]

The top U.S. pairs teams who went to 4CCs performed quite well at U.S. Nationals this year, aside from C/L not doing so well in the sp. Still C/L battled back at Nats to grab 4th place and a pewter medal. It was a great learning experience for them that primed them to concentrate on laying down a superb first place sp at 4CCs.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting C/L, K/O, and S-D/B couldn't 'do it' at Nationals. K/O did great at Nationals in both programs and earned their silver medal. As well, Deanna/Nate were quite fine at U.S. Nats in winning bronze. None of these teams were going to be selected for the Olympics over the Knierims, if that's what you are trying to reference. The Knierims would have had to heavily bomb, and they didn't, even despite not being in tip-top form at Nationals.

Agreed. K/O have improved drastically since December at their season opener in Zagreb and both S/B and C/L performed well at both competitions (I think C/L obviously improved their short and S/B improved their long, but both were better in their LP and SP, respectively, at Nats). Let's be real Chris and Alexa didn't even bring it at Nationals.

Chris and Alexa deserved to win. They deserve to be our sole Olympians in pairs, but they have been in a holding pattern of not landing sbs jumps all season. It's fine. I think we all expect it at this point, but let's applaud the other US pairs for making the most of their limited opportunities. I hope Chris and Alexa skate well at the Olys, but I have been pleasantly surprised by the other US teams. The top teams gave it their all when it was very clear (outside a disaster) Chris and Alexa were going to win.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

The top U.S. pairs teams who went to 4CCs performed quite well at U.S. Nationals this year, aside from C/L not doing so well in the sp. Still C/L battled back at Nats to grab 4th place and a pewter medal. It was a great learning experience for them that primed them to concentrate on laying down a superb first place sp at 4CCs.

I'm not sure why you are suggesting C/L, K/O, and S-D/B couldn't 'do it' at Nationals. K/O did great at Nationals in both programs and earned their silver medal. As well, Deanna/Nate were quite fine at U.S. Nats in winning bronze. None of these teams were going to be selected for the Olympics over the Knierims, if that's what you are trying to reference. The Knierims would have had to heavily bomb, and they didn't, even despite not being in tip-top form at Nationals.

K/O did not skate as well at Nationals, atleast in the LP, as they did at 4CCs at all. If they had it is possible they could have even won Nationals since the Knierims did not skate their best and had major mistakes in their own LP there. Although I am certain the Knierims would have been named the sole Olympic rep regardless, so I am not even thinking about the Olympics. Cain & Leduc definitely had a rough short program at Nationals which cost them the podium all likelihood. Both teams could have had better skates at Nationals than they did for sure, which would have been nice regardless of their result.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

As everyone knows I have been a big Knierims fan since day 1.

But now even Alexa has had jump issues, their 4twist had a stumble (which didn't get -GOE)

They are serving up reruns of both programs.

Im being equally critical with them as well. I can critique my favorites without bias.

Their throws and combo spin are amazing.

SBS spins have had minimal improvement....

It was nice to see the landed jumps of the 4CC USA teams... and it has me thinking....

 

[aftershocks]

K/O did not skate as well at Nationals, atleast in the LP, as they did at 4CCs at all. If they had it is possible they could have even won Nationals since the Knierims did not skate their best and had major mistakes in their own LP there. Although I am certain the Knierims would have been named the sole Olympic rep regardless, so I am not even thinking about the Olympics. Cain & Leduc definitely had a rough short program at Nationals which cost them the podium all likelihood. Both teams could have had better skates at Nationals than they did for sure, which would have been nice regardless of their result.

Well sure you can see it as you do and emphasize things the way you prefer. The point is, these athletes are not robots. As fans, don't we realize by now that in figure skating it's exceedingly rare to be perfect every time out?

C/L made the U.S. Nats podium in pewter position, whether anyone thinks 4th place is the 'podium' or not. C/L were certainly happy, since the alternative (after their sp results) would have been a lower placement. As I pointed out, and I will repeat: What happened to C/L in the sp at U.S. Nationals actually led to their first place winning performance in the sp at 4CCs. And how they battled through their fp at 4CCs was yet another learning experience that these two wonderful young people and athletes have learned from and will apply to their future challenges. They said as much during their post-event interviews (see the quoted excerpts I linked earlier).

Sure Danny & Tarah had an error in their fp at U.S. Nats. They didn't skate perfectly in the sp at 4CCs either. That's why it takes two performances to gain overall results. Had Danny & Tarah skated perfectly at U.S. Nationals and won gold, it's really up in the air as to whether they would have been selected for the Olympic team. And there's no point in pondering a 'what-if' scenario in any case.

The Knierims are going to the Olympics and they have proven to be the U.S. pair with the best overall elements and scoring potential regardless of their sbs jump inconsistencies. Let's root for the Knierims to overcome their sbs jumping snafus at the Olympics. The other top U.S. pairs were certainly inspired by Nationals to continue training and improving! It's nice for Danny & Tarah to have come out on top at 4CCs since they have already been named as the second U.S. pair heading to Worlds. It's great to see the U.S. teams in pairs and ice dance taking advantage of the opportunities 4CCs provided to them in this Olympic year.

 

[Mad for Skating]

@butyrskafanatic A world title for S&K is my dream! They deserve it after all this hell they've been through. I'm really afraid they're retiring next year; the sport just seems to have no room for them anymore, and they're sick of silver and 4th places all the time. While I pray they keep skating, I just think they've had enough.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Donovan: 2018 Four Continents fashion awards
Team USA's Kayne, O'Shea tabbed with pairs gold

And C&L silver.


And I agree. I do quite like these Swan lake costumes. And I like C&L's. However Timothy's costume could use just a bit more something.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/29/265491664

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Donovan: 2018 Four Continents fashion awards
Team USA's Kayne, O'Shea tabbed with pairs gold

And C&L silver.


And I agree. I do quite like these Swan lake costumes. And I like C&L's. However Timothy's costume could use just a bit more something.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/29/265491664

Great article, thanks for sharing.

 

[clairecloutier]

My 2018 Four Continents pairs review: https://adivinesport.com/2018/01/30/four-continents-2018-pairs-review/

 

[aftershocks]

I came across some performances by Takahashi/Shibata (Narumi's latest pairs partner). While it looks like Narumi is better matched physically and emotionally with Ryo, they still have to overcome technical issues, timing & rhythm balancing, and unison fine-tuning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrhPyNC5Jo this time a Japanese team trying to channel Shen/Zhao

Does anyone know who Narumi/Ryo are training with?

Narumi's former partner Ryuichi Kihara, seems a bit farther along in progress with his new partner, Miu Suzaki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcVvE9M-Yp4

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

My 2018 Four Continents pairs review: https://adivinesport.com/2018/01/30/four-continents-2018-pairs-review/

Making me wait nearly 3 days... the audacity......

I so agree about the nice amount of choreography in C&L's free skate to GG.

I also was surprised to see how well Swan Lake fit K&O.

I have been enamored with A&W of Australia but this season I am underwhelmed with..... her. I feel like she could bring MUCH more to this team..... I feel like he is the one who sells this team.. I so hope I dont start to lose interest...

(Also is it just me but their mismatching of costumes are rather distracting for me. When you see them out on warmup if you didn't know they were a team you would never know because they look like they are both wearing costumes for different programs. Like Harley would be skating with a different girl and she with a different guy.) For me these details matter.

P.S. Speaking of juniors-to-seniors Claire... when do we see the Czech team again?

 

[aftershocks]

Some Olympic pairs anticipation/ fun montage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3EfzZYhGbw

 

[nimi]

P.S. Speaking of juniors-to-seniors Claire... when do we see the Czech team again?

I'm not Claire but I recently posted an update in another thread:

update/article on Duskova/Bidar: http://www.ceskatelevize.cz/sport/z...it-ted-vyhlizi-duskova-olympiadu-v-plne-sile/

English translation provided by a GS user: A few months ago she could not walk, now she (Dušková) is looking at the Olympics in full strength

ETA:

I came across some performances by Takahashi/Shibata (Narumi's latest pairs partner). While it looks like Narumi is better matched physically and emotionally with Ryo, they still have to overcome technical issues, timing & rhythm balancing, and unison fine-tuning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrhPyNC5Jo this time a Japanese team trying to channel Shen/Zhao

Does anyone know who Narumi/Ryo are training with?

If their ISU info is up to date, they're training with Rockne&Stefania.

I do like Narumi&Ryo's skating style and look on the ice... even though there are a lot of areas that still need a lot of work.

But I wonder why they didn't participate in 4CC. I hope they're still together & not dealing with a serious injury or anything but I have no idea...