IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

Vash01 said:
You are bring extremely rude. There is nothing melodramatic about my post. Did it ever occur to you that as a fan I can't help but watch the games, no matter how upset I feel about the unfairness toward some athletes?

YOU are the one creating a hypothetical, OTT statement like being strapped in a chair. Get lost.
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No free will and no self-awareness at all. Makes perfect illogical sense.

On ignore you go. :drama: away to your heart's content.
 
@VALuvsMKwan In defence of Vash here, I'm feeling incredibly emotionally invested in this too. When the athletes concerned are ones you've been specifically following, in Olympic year this is really upsetting.

More to the point, I don't think your response to her was ok. Painting a picture of a poster being tortured is not only an overreaction and rude, I find it inappropriate and disturbing.
 
Vash01 said:
You are bring extremely rude. There is nothing melodramatic about my post. Did it ever occur to you that as a fan I can't help but watch the games, no matter how upset I feel about the unfairness toward some athletes?

YOU are the one creating a hypothetical, OTT statement like being strapped in a chair. Get lost.
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This entire post is nothing but "melodrama" LOL!
 
List of skaters who received invitations (and no marks next to their names).
ФИГУРНОЕ КАТАНИЕ НА КОНЬКАХ
Дмитрий Алиев, Джонатан Гурейро, Михаил Коляда, Владимир Морозов, Алексей Рогонов, Дмитрий Соловьев, Александр Энберт, Кристина Астахова, Екатерина Боброва, Наталья Забияко, Алина Загитова, Тиффани Загорски, Евгения Медведева, Мария Сотскова, Евгения Тарасова.
(Aliev, Gureiro, Kolyada, Morozov, Rogonov, Soloviev, Enbert, Astrakhanova, Bobrova, Zabiyako, Zagitova, Zagorskii, Medvedeva, Sotskova, Tarasova).

S/B still going to the camp (as mentioned before), Bukin's issue is till in discussion.
S/K, no news on their activities, except private info that Stolbova is sick with flue/grippe and has 39'C fever (and was not at Euro reception, so it was said in some private russian chats/blogs).
 
Tinami Amori said:
Thank you for the link and info…. But what “puts you in the moment” is very subjective, to some it is physical, to some it is mental, to some it is a substance that may or may not be banned…. I once seen a young man who “gets a moment” from sniffing petrol… My friend “gets a moment” from doing some weird new-ager hottuber yoga…. Another person drinks regular tea with 5 strong tea-bags in the hot water… Is WADA/testing authorities hunting for “dangerous steroid and substances” or are they trying to weed out ANYTHING (even non-chemical) that can help an athlete mentally of physically?
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Good question. Caffeine is on the list of banned substances if I'm remembering correctly. I remember if you were a heavy coffee drinker you were in trouble - ie more than 2 a day. I'm guessing - but some chemicals like alcohol and marijuana are banned substances in some countries. So, I'm thinking the IOC also walk the line between legal and illegal, or if you prefer cultural idiosyncrasies. :) We all know that cold medications have created havoc. But no matter, the bottom line is the IOC list of banned substances and other governing sports bodies are listed for those who take the time to read them. It sucks for the people who don't pay attention, but there it is. As for right now? Patience. Wait for the announcement.
 
millyskate said:
That's not quite what I meant - I understand the different standards (although not sure it's right in this case), but if there are two lists of standards, an athlete should face the same level of accountability towards the list that is applicable to him. There can be a list A and a list B.
ie if Athlete A has failings when compared to his list A, but manages to talk himself out of trouble

it's not ok for Athlete B to be banned without explanation, when there is some minor suspect activity measured against his list B.

This is the impression I'm getting now.
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You say you understand why there are two different standards but then you say it's not fair to have two different standards. I find this confusing.

The reason there are two different standards is that none of the clean tests performed by the labs involved can be reliably certified to actually be clean. So, yes, on paper one athlete only has minor activity on his record. But let's say that athlete was doping (I don't think Bukin was but if he was a speed skater or cyclist I'd be way less sure). The reason his record is mostly clean is that the Russian government cheated and hid his doping.

This is the position the IOC is in... on paper all these athletes look clean. But in reality they know that at least some of them aren't clean. If they can't trust their clean records, they need to ignore them and only use the data they know is untainted.

Btw, people keep bringing up "innocent until proven guilty." This is a fine principle for a court of law, one that my country uses. But not every country uses it. It's not some universal principle that everyone agrees with. Not to mention, this isn't a court of law. It's deciding who gets to compete in a particular competition. Which is and always has been a somewhat arbitrary process with lots of rules that people wouldn't begin to put up with in other aspects of their life.
Tinami Amori said:
thank you for reply and links. So, does that mean that if an athlete has 5 precious days for a vacation, flies to Italy and drinks lots of his/hers favorite vine, and scheduled for a “test” right upon return, he/she can not enjoy a vacation? Where is the line between testing for hidden unauthorized substances and letting person enjoy a normal alcoholic product?
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It's the line you cross when you decide to become an elite athlete.

I know plenty of elite athletes and they fully accept that not being able to drink whenever and wherever they want is part of the price they pay for being able to compete at the highest levels. Heck, I know lots of recreational athletes who accept this price and don't drink during their season because it impacts their performance. Of all the prices you have to pay to get to that level, not being able to get drunk while on vacation is the least of it.
 
MacMadame said:
Btw, people keep bringing up "innocent until proven guilty." This is a fine principle for a court of law, one that my country uses. But not every country uses it. It's not some universal principle that everyone agrees with. Not to mention, this isn't a court of law. It's deciding who gets to compete in a particular competition. Which is and always has been a somewhat arbitrary process with lots of rules that people wouldn't begin to put up with in other aspects of their life.
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I think the above is a really important point in trying to evaluate what the IOC is doing. They actually are beholden to existing rules, but of their organization and of elite athletics and anti-doping institutions. I know for me, I have only vague ideas of what these all may be so I'm stumbling around trying to figure it out without much knowledge. I know some posters here follow anti-doping efforts across sports, as well as the activities of the IOC and so really appreciate their posts.
 
MacMadame said:
You say you understand why there are two different standards but then you say it's not fair to have two different standards. I find this confusing.

.
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I must be really bad at explaining :) It's not the two different standards, but the two different attitudes and degrees of rigour with which these two different standards are enforced.

Say person A must jump 2m high to qualify. They jump 1.90 but after a slap on the wrist you let them in anyway because they pretexted rain made them slip in the run-up.

Person B must jump 2.20m to qualify. They jump .2.19 and then 2.20 but the bar wobbles dangerously, and falls after a minute in heavy wind conditions. You are inflexible and don't let them in.
 
pat c said:
Good question. Caffeine is on the list of banned substances if I'm remembering correctly. I remember if you were a heavy coffee drinker you were in trouble - ie more than 2 a day. I'm guessing - but some chemicals like alcohol and marijuana are banned substances in some countries. So, I'm thinking the IOC also walk the line between legal and illegal, or if you prefer cultural idiosyncrasies. :) We all know that cold medications have created havoc. But no matter, the bottom line is the IOC list of banned substances and other governing sports bodies are listed for those who take the time to read them. It sucks for the people who don't pay attention, but there it is. As for right now? Patience. Wait for the announcement.
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thanks for explaining the coffee situation. cold medication and caffeine is a ridiculous restriction (but there is info that coffee is not on the list, but up for consideration). something to address to WADA, who seems to be treating athletes of ALL countries like they are "out of prison on parole and almost under house arrest".

MacMadame said:
I know plenty of elite athletes and they fully accept that not being able to drink whenever and wherever they want is part of the price they pay for being able to compete at the highest levels. Heck, I know lots of recreational athletes who accept this price and don't drink during their season because it impacts their performance. Of all the prices you have to pay to get to that level, not being able to get drunk while on vacation is the least of it.
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i understand. except one part, if alcohol "impacts performance negatively" why would WADA bother? the issue is "unfair methods to improve performance", not protecting the athlete him/her-self from ruining his liver and reducing performance, if one chooses to ... (or maybe i did not understand "impact performance" correctly).
 
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Tinami Amori said:
List of skaters who received invitations (and no marks next to their names).
ФИГУРНОЕ КАТАНИЕ НА КОНЬКАХ
Дмитрий Алиев, Джонатан Гурейро, Михаил Коляда, Владимир Морозов, Алексей Рогонов, Дмитрий Соловьев, Александр Энберт, Кристина Астахова, Екатерина Боброва, Наталья Забияко, Алина Загитова, Тиффани Загорски, Евгения Медведева, Мария Сотскова, Евгения Тарасова.
(Aliev, Gureiro, Kolyada, Morozov, Rogonov, Soloviev, Enbert, Astrakhanova, Bobrova, Zabiyako, Zagitova, Zagorskii, Medvedeva, Sotskova, Tarasova).
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Source links:
http://olympic.ru/news/news-russia/...ih-olimpijskih-igrah-2018-goda-v-g-phenchhan/

https://rsport.ria.ru/winter2018_figure/20180125/1131617603.html
The composition of the Russian team in figure skating is as follows:

single skating (female and male): Evgenia Medvedeva, Alina Zagitova, Maria Sotskova, Mikhail Kolyada and Dmitri Aliev

sports couples: Kristina Astakhova / Alexei Rogonov, Evgenia Tarasova / Vladimir Morozov, Natalia Zabiiako / Alexander Enbert

dances on ice: Tiffani Zagorski / Jonathan Guerreiro, Ekaterina Bobrova / Dmitri Soloviev
 
millyskate said:
@VALuvsMKwan In defence of Vash here, I'm feeling incredibly emotionally invested in this too. When the athletes concerned are ones you've been specifically following, in Olympic year this is really upsetting.

More to the point, I don't think your response to her was ok. Painting a picture of a poster being tortured is not only an overreaction and rude, I find it inappropriate and disturbing.
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Thank you millyskate. I think giving you just a like is insufficient, so I personally thank you for your post.
 
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rfisher said:
Um, I'd think Russia submitted all the alternates names along with the planned team regardless since an injury could have caused one to be substituted, so A/R and Z/G's names would have been on the original list. They had to have them cleared whether they were activated or not. I don't think that's who the weaker athletes referred to. Plus, come on people. How many mistakes are there when you use Google translate. Why don't we just let the Russian speakers report what the Russian OC says when the final list is out. I really have to wonder why the Russian skating fed released this to the press early. They had to have a reason besides causing anxiety among all the skaters.
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My thinking is similar to yours, although I had not thought about what google translate may have done to the original text.

If the RSF named A&R and Z&G as alternates, clearly they were/are good enough to represent Russia/OAR at the Olympics, if one of the team members was injured or got sick before the competition. They may be alluding to skaters that are further down, perhaps? I agree that it's better to just wait until we know the correct translation through one of the Russian speaking fsuers who are always so kind.
 
coppertop1 said:
Good old deflecting. One athlete is not the same as the entire federation.
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this is a mute point now, but just short, for the record, there was a language/translation issue from the beginning in regards to terms "state" and "government" as it relates to "state sponsored" issues. second, in western countries athletes' sponsors are often private corporations, in Russia it is done out of state budget.

Public transport is also "state sponsored" and not just in Russia, so if a group of bus-drivers decide to form a coalition and create fraud to print fake tickets in order to over-charge customers by 50 cents/kopeeks, it does not mean that just because the entity is "state subsidized" the country's President/Prime Minister and his/her cabinet is guilty, or even if the local municipal office is involved..
 
millyskate said:
Say person A must jump 2m high to qualify. They jump 1.90 but after a slap on the wrist you let them in anyway because they pretexted rain made them slip in the run-up.

Person B must jump 2.20m to qualify. They jump .2.19 and then 2.20 but the bar wobbles dangerously, and falls after a minute in heavy wind conditions. You are inflexible and don't let them in.
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I think this is a false equivalence. It's more like: Person A must jump 2m to qualify and does. Person B must jump 2.20 and doesn't but does jump 2m. Why isn't Person B also qualifying, people then say? They jumped the same as Person A! Yes, but that wasn't what they had to do to qualify.
 
MacMadame said:
I think this is a false equivalence. It's more like: Person A must jump 2m to qualify and does. Person B must jump 2.20 and doesn't but does jump 2m. Why isn't Person B also qualifying, people then say? They jumped the same as Person A! Yes, but that wasn't what they had to do to qualify.
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I guess people's perception of the situation can differ - but mine is that it's unfolding as I described and that's what annoyed me. My perception of this is heavily influenced by information I have heard relating to certain summer sports, athletes and federations.
 
millyskate said:
@VALuvsMKwan In defence of Vash here, I'm feeling incredibly emotionally invested in this too. When the athletes concerned are ones you've been specifically following, in Olympic year this is really upsetting.

More to the point, I don't think your response to her was ok. Painting a picture of a poster being tortured is not only an overreaction and rude, I find it inappropriate and disturbing.
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I understand being upset - even very upset. That is different from having the opinion that you can't not watch for some reason. With regards to Olympics viewership for the general person, there is the choice of watching or not watching to whatever degree one wants - but masochistic or forced viewing? Please - life is too short for that amount of pain or drama.

My posting was my reaction to her insistence that she HAD to watch the Games, even if it was against her will. That was the first image that came to my mind. You're welcome to have your opinions of both her post and mine - and I mean that sincerely and not in any kind of harsh retort to you.
 
This is not an either/or scenario. You can think state-sponsored doping is bad and still think the IOC is fcuking this up. Because they are, big time.

We are two weeks out from the start of competition and the athletes still don't know if they'll be allowed to go over something the IOC has been fartarsing around on for years. This is completely unacceptable.
 
misskarne said:
This is not an either/or scenario. You can think state-sponsored doping is bad and still think the IOC is fcuking this up. Because they are, big time.

We are two weeks out from the start of competition and the athletes still don't know if they'll be allowed to go over something the IOC has been fartarsing around on for years. This is completely unacceptable.
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True! The whole thing is very messed up. If they weren’t under such extreme pressure to do immediate punishment it would have been better to start after pyeongchang was already over and plan all punishments for Beijing.
 
just sharing info, not an opinion...

Mr. Kogan of RFSF says that although a list of 169 approved athletes has been sent, it does not mean they stopped the inquiry into Stolbova, Bukin situation.
The two teams are still scheduled to travel to Japan for pre-game training, and their names are filed with IOC as potential participants.
Two articles in offical russian publications rsport.ru and rt.sport.
https://rsport.ria.ru/winter2018_figure/20180125/1131621527.html
https://russian.rt.com/sport/news/474233-ffkkr-zayavka-oi-stolbova-bukin
 
coppertop1 said:
Good old deflecting. One athlete is not the same as the entire federation.
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There was more than one athlete. There was a culture of doping and cheating. Officials were involved in covering up for athletes. There was something in that society that allowed that to happen. It happened in a different way than what happened in Russia, but it happened. I can see why you and other Canadians get so defensive when it is brought up. Must have been very painful. I just don't see how any can take glee in what is happening right now.
 
I will say this, to wait until the eleventh hour to deliver the bad news to athletes uninvited is callous. Sure, one could suggest these athletes/skaters knew that this was coming if they knowingly violated the rules... That’s fair. The question is, how many knew they were in violation? And, will they admit it? The whole sordid affair is unfortunate -- a sad, miserable mess.
 
allezfred said:
There was more than one athlete. There was a culture of doping and cheating. Officials were involved in covering up for athletes. There was something in that society that allowed that to happen. It happened in a different way than what happened in Russia, but it happened. I can see why you and other Canadians get so defensive when it is brought up. Must have been very painful. I just don't see how any can take glee in what is happening right now.
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pls enlarge on this theory.
 
allezfred said:
Someone from a country that produced Ben Johnson shouldn’t be too smug. :shuffle:
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A COUNTRY that produced Ben Johnson? His team and himself were able to make it by themselves. Your post implies that the whole country, from bottom down made sure there was a systematic doping system among their athletes. Is it what you imply? Feeling to stir up thiings a little bit, tonight?
 
barbarafan said:
pls enlarge on this theory.
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without commentary from me, just watch these, and keep in mind that in some countries "state sponsored" does not apply only because there is no link between "sport" and "state", and that authority figures (in the videos) are confirming that doping takes places everywhere, just that methods/drugs are getting smarter with less possibility of detection, so basically it is a contest who comes up with better dope/methods.

Victor Conte: How Olympians beat drug test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93U7NQb7LE

Victor Conte: I showed Shane Mosley how to inject EPO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKLc7mFrxzs

Ben Johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2aeV3fIUDo

BBC 2015 Special
Doping: Catch Me If You Can - 2015 Doc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6E_YBa5vjM
 
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