Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[aftershocks]

....
So Ross vs. Vincent should have been a fairly close decision, EXCEPT that Vincent was the silver medalist last year and not sent to Worlds. Bypassing someone on the podium two years in a row would have looked bad too. And the fact that last year the silver medalist was not given the highest-prestige assignment was a precursor to what happened this time too.

EXCEPT that US fed has never actually worried or apparently given a rat's a** about how bad their decisions might look.

It keeps being stated that Vincent was somehow purposely left off 2017 senior Worlds in favor of Jason. That's simply not true. Mr. Jason Brown placed third and was on the team anyway. Vincent has said himself that he didn't even expect to make the podium at U.S. Nationals last year. Adam was out injured, and Jason competed injured, so that gave Vincent an opportunity he may not otherwise have had as he wasn't flashing 5 attempted quads last year.

The fact that Vincent made the Nationals podium boosted his confidence for junior Worlds, obviously. Some fans have posted here that Vincent did not make the minimums he needed to attend senior Worlds, so that further confirms USFS did not intentionally keep Vincent off the 2017 senior World team. US fed apparently sent Vincent to a senior B in order to try and get the minimums he needed, but it didn't happen. I don't see the big deal about a skater who competed junior and appeared at only his second U.S Nationals as a senior not getting to go to senior Worlds! ETA: It's listed that Vincent was WD at Golden Spin (unclear whether he pulled out in advance for some reason in order to focus on Nationals perhaps). Therefore if that's the case, Vincent not going to senior Worlds was his and his team's choice. He won Junior Worlds unexpectedly. Can we stop with the "Poor Vincent didn't get assigned to 2017 senior Worlds" whining already. So what! He'll be better off appearing at Worlds in 2018 with a full senior season and an Olympic appearance behind him.

I seem to recall that 'unlucky' Nathan Chen didn't get to attend either junior Worlds or senior Worlds in 2016 due to an injury that turned out to be a blessing in disguise for him. He came back the following season throwing quads like nobody's business. #QuadGoals

 

[VGThuy]

Would you have had an issue if Vincent was left off the Olympic team in favor of Adam?

 

[Skittl1321]

Sure, the only difference that makes though is the feeling Ross felt when he came off the ice having given everything he had and having realized his dream of competing his best at Nationals in an Olympic season. No one can take that away, as Ross said. I'm not sure how Ross actually feels now about the medal itself, which is pretty much a consolation prize at best. He's won the silver medal before at Nationals.

Is that medal meaningless because it didn't lead to an Olympic berth?

Why have nationals in non-Olympic years?

 

[babayaga]

Is that medal meaningless because it didn't lead to an Olympic berth?

Why have nationals in non-Olympic years?

Because people qualify for Worlds Championship during those years?

 

[Skittl1321]

Because people qualify for Worlds Championship during those years?

And a medal doesn't guarantee qualifying in those years either. So is the medal a consolation prize?

 

[aftershocks]

Is that medal meaningless because it didn't lead to an Olympic berth?

Why have nationals in non-Olympic years?

Since we're just speculating here, you'd have to ask Ross that first question. I'm not sure who you should be addressing re your second question.

I doubt querying Ross right now on this matter would be very welcome at the moment. Ross has two U.S. Nats bronze medals and two silver medals on the senior level. He's got a slew of other medals on the lower Nats levels, and some international medals as well. I wonder where he keeps them all? Of course, I don't actually know how Ross feels about his current medal. Hopefully, we will hear from him again soon. I'm sure his family and his girlfriend, Heidi Munger, are a source of support and encouragement for him now.

I'm thinking that Ross and his coaches may not be able to look at each other without tears springing to their eyes. But not the happy tears we saw at rink side when Ross came off the ice on January 6.

Please say hello and thanks for everything to Ross and his Mom whenever you see them again @paskatefan.

 

[Skittl1321]

I'm fairly sure Ross is extremely disappointed. Who wouldn't be.

But people here are acting like his silver medal is meaningless. That's the speculation that doesn't make sense. He competed at a competition and was awarded a placement for the programs he put out at the competition. Maybe the medal is worthless him; or maybe he recognizes that it was one of the best skates of his career and he really earned that medal.

If the only reason to skate is to make it to the Olympics, I'm not sure I see why they have people qualify through sectionals at all. Just let the GP skaters come to nationals.

 

[babayaga]

And a medal doesn't guarantee qualifying in those years either. So is the medal a consolation prize?

Well, that was my impression. That qualifying for the World Championship was always much more important than what medal they get. Except for the gold medal, winning the Nationals is important. The rest - not so much if it does not mean a trip to WC. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.

 

[Vash01]

If I were Ross, I would be very proud of my silver medal and the performance that led to it. I would re-live that feeling in my mind over and over again.

Sure, there will be the painful memory of not being on the Olympic team, but it will pass and I will cherish the good feelings into my old age and tell my grand children about how it felt.

 

[bardtoob]

If I were Ross, I would be very proud of my silver medal and the performance that led to it. I would re-live that feeling in my mind over and over again.

Sure, there will be the painful memory of not being on the Olympic team, but it will pass and I will cherish the good feelings into my old age and tell my grand children about how it felt.

This might be easier if Adam does not skate like Jeremy Abbott in 2014, which used to be my yard stick for bad performances, or worse, although I now recognize that Jeremy at least fell on his a$$ trying . . . which is more than I can necessarily expect from some skaters.

 

[bardtoob]

If the only reason to skate is to make it to the Olympics, I'm not sure I see why they have people qualify through sectionals at all. Just let the GP skaters come to nationals.

They should let the top Sectional skaters go to Nationals to qualify for international assignments. They should just select the Olympic Team from skaters that have international assignments, if they are going to handle things the way they did with Ross.

They should just give every skater that qualifies from Nationals the same number of international assignments, regardless of if they are Senior B or GP assignments, then compare the TES with and without GOEs. They should not pay attention to rankings, placements, or medals because fields can be weak, and they should have skater go to alternative competitions if they do not qualify for the GPF.

Maybe the only reason, and it should be explicitly stated, skaters with international assignment should have to go to Nationals is so that skaters with international assignment but low BV can be compared with skaters from Sectionals and can lose their international assignment if they place out of the top 10-12.

 

[jlai]

USFS already give many national skaters sr B assignments. Whether they get GPs in addition is out of USFS hands. Some skaters who don't score above some min scores don't get a sr B, but that means they didn't skate well in the summer.

And going by what happened in Skate Canada, TES can vary greatly depending on the caller.

The thing is, making it to nationals by itself is a big deal for the vast majority of skaters. Then some compete for higher order assignments. It does suck for skaters for their last season, competing for the most prestigious assignments like worlds or Olympics, if they lose out anyway. But for skaters with different goals, nationals still means a lot. We could discuss what the fed can do to incentivize skaters towards the end of the career to compete.

Just because we don't agree with the committee doesn't mean they are corrupt and/or prejudiced. They have a tough job to do.
Just because we agree/don't agree with sending Skater X or leaving off Skater Y doesn't mean we have to reiterate their flaws in their programs over and over. They are all worthy athletes.

Things are not black and white, either or, for things so complicated as this.

 

[bardtoob]

And going by what happened in Skate Canada, TES can vary greatly depending on the caller.

And going by PCS is very dependent on whether or not your federation is done with you and trying to kick you to the curb.

We can be namby pamby about it, but the fact of the matter is that USFSA does not emphasize TES enough, which is why the US only has one State-of-the-Art skater among singles and pairs despite having a huge pool of talent and resources . . . and one skater that is desperately pushing the technical boundaries because her federation was done with her

Just because we don't agree with the committee doesn't mean they are corrupt and/or prejudiced.

Just because your momma is not on the committee does not mean you are also not in bed with the committee

They have a tough job to do.
Just because we agree/don't agree with sending Skater X or leaving off Skater Y doesn't mean we have to reiterate their flaws in their programs over and over. They are all worthy athletes.

Things are not black and white, either or, for things so complicated as this.

I am certain their job is difficult.

Just because you do not agree with other people objecting to the status quo does not mean you are a voice of reason. You might just be an apologist for a flawed system that desperately wants to send quadless male skaters to the highest level of competition because they are well liked and hold up aging pretty female skaters until somebody younger comes along.

Jason Brown had a TES Base of 38.30 in the SP and a TES Base of 67.68 in the LP.

Mirai Nagasu had a TES Base of 37.01 in the SP and a TES Base of 65.08 in the LP.

Now, why is Mirai the US Ladies Silver Medalist and Jason the 1st Alternate for Olympics over a male skater who did content Jason could never do, consistent or not?

I think the USFSA is now a bottom feeder, content with getting couple of 4th through 9th places at Worlds. Nathan is just happenstance that is the result of Nathan's own ambition within an expensive mediocre system.

 

[aftershocks]

Just let the GP skaters come to nationals.

Hey, that's an idea ... Oh, wait!

Forbes weighs into the controversy:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carols...gure-skatings-selection-process/#745bd9395d6f

"U.S. Figure Skating is considering making changes to its Olympic selection process in an effort to dial down the outrage after a weekend of controversy... 'weighting tiers ... look at different models longer term based on BOW over 12 to 18 months...' Another idea would be to uncouple the Olympic announcements from the U.S. Championships... By waiting even a few days before naming the Olympians, the spotlight at nationals would stay on the athletes' performances at the event itself."

How can outrage be 'dialed down' I wonder. It's too late USFS! Anyway, the bolded section above is what I suggested earlier. Why did they need to rush the decision? To freeze out expectations and behind-the-scenes politicking? To get over with what they wanted to happen anyway? It seems as if they weren't so much analyzing BOW and head-to-head numbers, as much as accumulating what they felt supported their decision, which again brings up questions regarding the need to actually spell out in advance who has a chance to make the team and who doesn't. That's maybe the crux of the issue. No matter how much was known about the BOW criteria, no one actually knew how it would be applied based on different podium scenarios. Ross had every right to at least hope they would not mess with his silver medal position, especially in light of his scores, and regardless of his BOW quotient.

Why oh why didn't USFS have the sense not to tempt the Skate Gods!? Didn't they have sense enough to realize they were going to court these types of headlines after the hullabaloo over the 2014 ladies Olympic team selection?

What does Brian Boitano think? No party line thinking please.

Here's another link to the first video interview with Ross since the National championships:
https://www.necn.com/news/sports/Ma...Miner-Shocked-by-Olympics-Snub-468535473.html

Bottom line, what's happened here does impact young skaters with stars in their eyes dreaming of going to the Olympics. The dream is obviously out of reach for many. But now it seems to be spelled out in no uncertain terms that you don't even have the possibility of dreaming of the impossible anymore, because BOW wow has the power to cut you down to size and wake you up to cold reality. Even if you achieve a magical skate of a lifetime, it may not punch your ticket to the Olympics.

 

[jiejie]

Here's another link to the first video interview with Ross since the National championships:
https://www.necn.com/news/sports/Ma...Miner-Shocked-by-Olympics-Snub-468535473.html

I hope some of that spin/tone of the article was due to the author, not the subject. I am struggling to believe that Ross has this much lack of awareness about his past two years of performance in international competitions and particularly this season.

"I really felt like I put it all on the line when it counted."
If this is a verbatim quote, then by implication, he/his team must have felt that his GP/Challenger performances wouldn't count for as much. If that's the case, it was a severe miscalculation on the part of Team Miner. They could have looked at his 3 international scores from this year (Finlandia, Autumn Classic, Skate America) at only 234, 220, 220 (rounded) and come to the conclusion that he was vulnerable in a selection process for the big prize competitions, regardless of how he placed.

While I can understand emotional response of disappointment, I can't understand one of surprise that he was the odd man out and placed as alternate behind four men who routinely score higher than him in international competition.

 

[aftershocks]

Once again @jiejie, it takes some getting used to having the magic Olympic carpet ride rug pulled out from underneath you. It might take drumming it into skaters heads that they no longer have any chance at all unless they medal on the GP every year, which is an impossible standard to reach and to maintain even for some very accomplished skaters. It's so dependent upon the field you compete against which is variable, along with other unknown changeable factors out of the athletes' control.

With his rousing performance (which was definitely unexpected), Ross had a right to hope particularly after he'd actually made the podium in silver medal position. Immediately after Ross skated, I imagine the consensus among fans in the arena was probably at least 95% that Jason and Adam would pull in front of Ross. Still, those were really high scores Ross received and it was fingernail biting time. I still think Vincent's PCS was overly high and that despite his two popped jumps, Adam should have landed in front of Vincent by a slight edge, even if less than a point. But then the committee likely would have still bumped Ross for Vincent.

I interpret "putting it all on the table" which is what Ross said, to mean he gave everything of himself during his final Nationals performance, which was made extra special in an Olympic year. You should listen to Ross in the actual video. Of course the media who know zip about figure skating may misconstrue certain comments or take Ross' words out of context. Still, why not give Ross some slack right about now, if you will. He's one of the nicest skaters in the sport, and he will be missed among the competitive ranks.

 

[jiejie]

I still think Vincent's PCS was overly high and that despite his two popped jumps, Adam should have landed in front of Vincent by a slight edge, even if less than a point. But then the committee likely would have still bumped Ross for Vincent.

I think I can agree with you on these points, that Vincent's PCS was too high and that the podium could have ended up 1-2-3-4 as Nathan, Ross, Adam, Vincent. As to whether they would have bumped Ross for a #4 Vincent, I'd say, yeah I'd give odds of 75% that USFS would have gone with Vincent.

 

[jlai]

Let us not forget. Athletes are optimistic by nature. If they are realists like us they won't be competitive at all. They need to think positive about their chances all the time

 

[Deleted member 19433]

I think I can agree with you on these points, that Vincent's PCS was too high and that the podium could have ended up 1-2-3-4 as Nathan, Ross, Adam, Vincent. As to whether they would have bumped Ross for a #4 Vincent, I'd say, yeah I'd give odds of 75% that USFS would have gone with Vincent.

Considering the committee ranked Jason above Ross as is, it probably would have come down to Vincent vs. Jason.

 

[kwanfan1818]

The Australian Fed tracks by international TESS.

Bypassing someone on the podium two years in a row would have looked bad too.

They could have sent him to Worlds, but Miner to Korea.

Because if the competition ended up Nathan, Adam, Ross, Grant, Tim, Jason, Vincent or something, Ross might well have made the team. If

Then Brown wouldn't have been first alternate.

 

[jlai]

Looking at the criteria again I do think they could make life simpler by dumping all the previous season's competitions which I don't think should be a big factor. Then you can see clearly who is 'hot' this season. And without that Brown wouldn't be first alternate. He has had three bad lps in a row and trend should count for something though it is hard to add weights to a trend.

Remember Czisny in 2011-12. Good gp, bad gpf and what happened at worlds. And flatt too for another year. You shouldn't get any consideration for placing last at gpf.

 

[screech]

I feel that the competitions closest to the big event should carry more weight than those months or even a year (or more) ago.

Skating well one month before the Olympics, to me, should have more bearing than skating well the November before the Games, and absolutely more than the March (11 months) before the Olympics.

 

[jlai]

Not proposing to change this year's criteria but food for thought for the future:
In recent years, nationals hasn't been a good indicator of the skaters do at 4cc. And how the skaters do at 4cc isn't necessary an indicator of how they do at worlds.
I think the last 2-3 competitions should carry the most weight; and downward trend should most certainly be noted. Some skaters just go up and down and up and down.

 

[barbk]

I feel that the competitions closest to the big event should carry more weight than those months or even a year (or more) ago.

Skating well one month before the Olympics, to me, should have more bearing than skating well the November before the Games, and absolutely more than the March (11 months) before the Olympics.

It's a theory. Not one followed by Japan (Hanyu), Russia (Medvedeva), China (Sui/Han). Canada's criteria go two full seasons back and even allow nomination of athletes to the figure skating team before the national championships. These are all countries that have had some pretty significant international success in recent years. Maybe we need to be more like that.

 

[vesperholly]

It's a theory. Not one followed by Japan (Hanyu), Russia (Medvedeva), China (Sui/Han). Canada's criteria go two full seasons back and even allow nomination of athletes to the figure skating team before the national championships. These are all countries that have had some pretty significant international success in recent years. Maybe we need to be more like that.

I've read famous skaters say that Worlds/Olympics was less stressful than Nationals, because the competition is so fierce just to make a US team. So skaters end up turning in their best performances at Nationals and skating less well at Worlds/Olympics.

The Russian Hunger Games is a totally different story though. They cray.

 

[becca]

And going by PCS is very dependent on whether or not your federation is done with you and trying to kick you to the curb.

We can be namby pamby about it, but the fact of the matter is that USFSA does not emphasize TES enough, which is why the US only has one State-of-the-Art skater among singles and pairs despite having a huge pool of talent and resources . . . and one skater that is desperately pushing the technical boundaries because her federation was done with her



Just because your momma is not on the committee does not mean you are also not in bed with the committee



I am certain their job is difficult.

Just because you do not agree with other people objecting to the status quo does not mean you are a voice of reason. You might just be an apologist for a flawed system that desperately wants to send quadless male skaters to the highest level of competition because they are well liked and hold up aging pretty female skaters until somebody younger comes along.

Jason Brown had a TES Base of 38.30 in the SP and a TES Base of 67.68 in the LP.

Mirai Nagasu had a TES Base of 37.01 in the SP and a TES Base of 65.08 in the LP.

Now, why is Mirai the US Ladies Silver Medalist and Jason the 1st Alternate for Olympics over a male skater who did content Jason could never do, consistent or not?

I think the USFSA is now a bottom feeder, content with getting couple of 4th through 9th places at Worlds. Nathan is just happenstance that is the result of Nathan's own ambition within an expensive mediocre system.

I actually agree with this. USFSA does not care enough about TES. I have said this before any other federation Nathan Chen would be a THREE time National Champ.

Yes he is winning now after INTERNATIONAL judges scores him high.

They seemed obsessed with sending Adam and Brown and I must say why? Yes both made GPF mainly through luck but both are clearly not in the upper eschelon. The top men are doing multiple hard quads and Adam and Brown can't do one. It's line the USFSA is obsessed with you can win without one but you can't.

The skating lesson had a point. No US gymnast talks about the selection committee line Adam and Ashley did. Those gymnasts are afraid of it. They know they mess up they are out.

I just don't see the point of holding up someone so they can place 9th at the Olympics as for the men's event the worst that can me done is 5th on the long and Zhou can score about as all as Adam.

They want to be line US gymnastics. Marta would have never allowed a skater without a quad feel safe. I just don't get it. I am not against Rippon or Brown. But the love and adoration. I just can't help feeling any other fed would jump on Zhou and promote him.

Yes Zhou was inconsistent but I am willing to forgive it when a skater is trying to get consistent that content.

I don't disagree with body of work but I wouldn't be quick to use it on mid tier skaters.

 

[Rock2]

Because if the competition ended up Nathan, Adam, Ross, Grant, Tim, Jason, Vincent or something, Ross might well have made the team. If Jason was in 4th behind Ross, it might have been Ross out for Jason. Other people's placements mattered too.

They do but I think Jason and Vincent would have needed to be further back.

Ross beat Jason by 4 places and 20 pts and Jason was put ahead of him.
Furthermore, Jason practically makes top 10 on PCS alone. Just has to do a light jog around the ice sheet and he's right in there. #nohope

 

[Rock2]

The Russian Hunger Games is a totally different story though. They cray.

That genuinely made me LOL. And I'm dead inside, so that's no small feat....

 

[bardtoob]

The Russian Hunger Games is a totally different story though. They cray.

@vesperholly Fabulous style

. . . I do think American figure skating could use a little more of that to maintain global relevance. The Russian Ladies are already dominant and the Russian Men are coming on strong.

 

[caseyedwards]

I feel that the competitions closest to the big event should carry more weight than those months or even a year (or more) ago.

Skating well one month before the Olympics, to me, should have more bearing than skating well the November before the Games, and absolutely more than the March (11 months) before the Olympics.

Totally! Brown and rippon maybe have horrible burnout and are terrible now! While miner is great!! Miners nationals should have counted for something! Maybe another reason why Nationals became so important in the first place when people used to say the whole season was a dress rehearsal for nationals!