Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[overedge]

There's been lots of discussion on FSU about the lack of validity in comparing scores across competitions as a measure of performance. So I'm not too impressed with USFS apparently using scores from past performance as a measure of the possibility of a skater winning an Olympic medal.

I wasn't a fan of the Olympic team competition to begin with, but I'm even less of a fan now that it has added this extra layer of "but they might do well on the team" maneuvering in the selection process.

 

[NAOTMAA]

In the Olympic team conference with Chen, Rippon and Zhou, the USFSA official mentioned they were looking at the scores earned and which were most competitive with the world - and he said, who had the possibility of winning a medal (inclduing the team medal) so, total scores were also part of the body of work. The official said that Ross just did not have the scores internationally that the men had who were chosen for the team.

Then perhaps they should have only let the men who meet this standard compete. It would have been a competition of only 5-6 men but at least the other men would have saved a lot time, emotional energy and money (most of these people aren't close to rich). Why have men like Ross compete at all if they never had a chance?

 

[meggonzo]

Except for the fact that Brown didn't earn the Worlds spot outright last year. I think the fact that Zhou was denied the opportunity to go to Worlds last year had to be taken into account.

Did Zhou have the needed points to qualify for Worlds last year?

No, Vincent didn't have TES minimums for senior Worlds last year. There was a lot of discussion about this at the time.

Go read Mark Mitchell's response to Phil Hersch about why he's considering quitting coaching.

Do you have a link to this? Is it on Twitter?

 

[jlai]

Then perhaps they should have only let the men who meet this standard compete. It would have been a competition of only 5-6 men but at least the other men would have saved a lot time, emotional energy and money (most of these people aren't close to rich). Why have men like Ross compete at all if they never had a chance?

But what if Grant had a LP of a life time, got quads in both segments, and beat all those 5-6 men who popped their jumps? Then he would very likely have been picked.
Not a great likelihood, but stranger things happen.

You keep trying to change the criteria after the fact. Those who are fuming right now should have this 20-page discussion 6 months ago.

 

[Gazpacho]

Personally I think they should've mentioned the average score thing when they announced the BOW criteria. Personally, I think they probably look at three things:
1. Body of Work (Competition results as announced)
2. Average scores from international judges
3. Consistency/trend of performances (Getting better, getting worse, or staying stagnant good or bad)

I think they should clearly outline this or announce it with the team. If they simply stated this beforehand or emphasized it so that news outlets showed the average scores of the three that made the team and Ross, I think people who didn't follow figure skating would understand the decision more. Or if they emphasized that Nationals were not an Olympic trials but rather another of a series of competitions the committee was considering, and that they were considering placement along with final score. Or if they said they were weighing final score or average international score more heavily than final placement. Or something like that.

They deliberately don't say these things beforehand because obfuscation allows them leeway to select whom they want to select. There is always an element of politics and personal favoritism. The stated reasons afterward are sometimes a case of post hoc justification for the decision they wanted ahead of time.

 

[vesperholly]

No, Vincent didn't have TES minimums for senior Worlds last year. There was a lot of discussion about this at the time.

He didn't at Nationals, but they sent him to the Bavarian Open after Nationals, where he did earn the minimums in time for Worlds.

 

[NAOTMAA]

But what if Grant had a LP of a life time, got quads in both segments, and beat all those 5-6 men who popped their jumps? Then he would very likely have been picked.
Not a great likelihood, but stranger things happen.

You keep trying to change the criteria after the fact. Those who are fuming right now should have this 20-page discussion 6 months ago.

I'm not changing the criteria at all.

Its funny you pick Grant as your example because Grant's international, and nationals, record is even worse Ross's. So technically even if Grant had won the whole shebang he would have ended up exactly where Ross is now (national champ isn't guaranteed anymore according to the criteria). Grant didn't even get 4CC! He was placed as alternate behind 9th place Max Aaron

 

[Bellanca]

But what if Grant had a LP of a life time, got quads in both segments, and beat all those 5-6 men who popped their jumps? Then he would very likely have been picked.
Not a great likelihood, but stranger things happen.

You keep trying to change the criteria after the fact. Those who are fuming right now should have this 20-page discussion 6 months ago.

Grant would have been replaced just like Ross. That is why the biased (there, I said it) selection committee's built-in BOW excuse, uh, criteria is tremendously flawed. Mark Mitchell has been around long enough, he knows.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Since we're going for it, why not have the Olympic title decided over ten events, too?

 

[Seerek]

He didn't at Nationals, but they sent him to the Bavarian Open after Nationals, where he did earn the minimums in time for Worlds.

Not to mention Zhou at Bavarian Open (247) outscored Jason Brown competing the same week at Four Continents (245).

 

[DreamSkates]

Then perhaps they should have only let the men who meet this standard compete. It would have been a competition of only 5-6 men but at least the other men would have saved a lot time, emotional energy and money (most of these people aren't close to rich). Why have men like Ross compete at all if they never had a chance?

Isn't nationals each year, about winning a medal at the national level? Getting nominated to the Olympic team is something additional. Ross can be VERY proud of his long program and silver medal, despite not being named to the team. He has won a national medal, and in great style.

 

[nekkidgator]

I'm personally thrilled with the selection process by the committee. Every US skater has known since last Olympics (and Wagner's placement on Sochi O team) that BODY of WORK combined with Nationals placement would determine the O team. Sorry, but not sorry. If Ross Miner wanted or expected or deserved to be on the Olympic team, maybe he should have started skating like this a few months ago, a year ago, 2 years ago, etc. I'm not saying every time, but maybe skate somewhere near this level even one other time recently Ross? Just like skaters AND fans have had to adjust to new scoring system the last 15 years and new rule tweaks every few years, so the skaters AND fans must accept the new way of selections for Olympic and World teams.

I mean seriously, what if Nathan Chen had skated God awful yesterday (due to his illness/flu) and finished 4th but had too much honor to withdraw? (See Tonya Harding 1990 Nationals skating with a temperature of 103F for an idea of how skating sick can go horribly wrong). Would you really expect the USFSA to leave Nathan home because of one bad skate? Maybe you would, but not me. I'm glad the US federation is doing it like the other successful skating nations around the globe instead of being stuck in last century.

 

[vesperholly]

Not to mention Zhou at Bavarian Open (247) outscored Jason Brown competing the same week at Four Continents (245).

Sure, but it is a disingenuous comparison. Zhou's score was better by two points. Jason's competition at 4CCs was Chen, Hanyu, Uno, PChan and Boyang Jin. Zhou competed against a bunch of skaters I've never heard of.

 

[jlai]

I'm not changing the criteria at all.

Its funny you pick Grant as your example because Grant's international, and nationals, record is even worse Ross's. So technically even if Grant had won the whole shebang he would have ended up exactly where Ross is now (national champ isn't guaranteed anymore according to the criteria). Grant didn't even get 4CC! He was placed as alternate behind 9th place Max Aaron

Look, the odds of winning the lottery is one in like 26 million, yet people buy the tickets. These guys go to nationals because the odds of them being picked is not one in 26 million. They have a shot, even if it is a teeny tiny one.

If you are not changing the critiera, why gripe?

 

[caseyedwards]

I'm personally thrilled with the selection process by the committee. Every US skater has known since last Olympics (and Wagner's placement on Sochi O team) that BODY of WORK combined with Nationals placement would determine the O team. Sorry, but not sorry. If Ross Miner wanted or expected or deserved to be on the Olympic team, maybe he should have started skating like this a few months ago, a year ago, 2 years ago, etc. I'm not saying every time, but maybe skate somewhere near this level even one other time recently Ross? Just like skaters AND fans have had to adjust to new scoring system the last 15 years and new rule tweaks every few years, so the skaters AND fans must accept the new way of selections for Olympic and World teams.

I mean seriously, what if Nathan Chen had skated God awful yesterday (due to his illness/flu) and finished 4th but had too much honor to withdraw? (See Tonya Harding 1990 Nationals skating with a temperature of 103F for an idea of how skating sick can go horribly wrong). Would you really expect the USFSA to leave Nathan home because of one bad skate? Maybe you would, but not me. I'm glad the US federation is doing it like the other successful skating nations around the globe instead of being stuck in last century.

Yes because miner chose to make the mistakes he made when he could have just chosen not to make any mistakes and be perfect! Why didn’t Miner choose to do his nationals performance every time? why Didn’t he choose to win nationals and worlds! What a bad mistake Miner made! And a Chen didn’t replace Miner rippon did.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It'll be really interesting to see if Karen's, Vincent's and Adam's placements in any way factor at 2018 Worlds, whether Team USA keeps three spots for 2019.

 

[Bellanca]

Remember the days when a little-known athlete went to the Olympics and won a medal, possibly the first and only medal or title in their competitive career? How sweet was that? Very! Now, we have a micromanaged sport. May I see your resume, please? Sad. Very sad.

 

[Cherub721]

Wow, Charlie White blocked me on twitter. I don't think I've ever tweeted anything at him. What did he say?

If the person's account is public, you can always right click and open the link in an incognito tab to read it.

He said this:
Can we all make a concerted effort to minimize horrible skating twitter? I know hot takes are fun, but they can also be dumb and annoying. Think critically before hitting the tweet button.

In reply to this:
Sorry but i think Charlie is just lobbying for his friend here. Ashley has never been known for SS. She benefits from corridor PCS judging. Charlie also says he agrees with sending Bradie to the Olympics. If Ashley were really the female Patrick Chan maybe he'd be outraged.

The comment he's replying to isn't the nicest, but I hardly think it represents "horrible skating twitter." It's perfectly civil. If that's the worst twitter abuse he's ever received he's really lucky.

 

[nekkidgator]

Yes because miner chose to make the mistakes he made when he could have just chosen not to make any mistakes and be perfect! Why didn’t Miner choose to do his nationals performance every time? why Didn’t he choose to win nationals and worlds! What a bad mistake Miner made! And a Chen didn’t replace Miner rippon did.

Miner didn't need to be perfect all other times, but maybe post some high scores internationally...I dunno, just once even?? Just one time would have helped his case. Instead, his wonderful Nationals program looks like an emotional fluke (perhaps his last Nationals appearance?) rather than an indication of how he typically competes or even practices.

 

[smarts1]

I'm personally thrilled with the selection process by the committee. Every US skater has known since last Olympics (and Wagner's placement on Sochi O team) that BODY of WORK combined with Nationals placement would determine the O team. Sorry, but not sorry. If Ross Miner wanted or expected or deserved to be on the Olympic team, maybe he should have started skating like this a few months ago, a year ago, 2 years ago, etc. I'm not saying every time, but maybe skate somewhere near this level even one other time recently Ross? Just like skaters AND fans have had to adjust to new scoring system the last 15 years and new rule tweaks every few years, so the skaters AND fans must accept the new way of selections for Olympic and World teams.

I mean seriously, what if Nathan Chen had skated God awful yesterday (due to his illness/flu) and finished 4th but had too much honor to withdraw? (See Tonya Harding 1990 Nationals skating with a temperature of 103F for an idea of how skating sick can go horribly wrong). Would you really expect the USFSA to leave Nathan home because of one bad skate? Maybe you would, but not me. I'm glad the US federation is doing it like the other successful skating nations around the globe instead of being stuck in last century.

Nathan is a different story though-- he has numerous accolades, is clearly the US men's #1 by miles, and is competitive for a podium finish at any major ISU event.

 

[Bellanca]

If the person's account is public, you can always right click and open the link in an incognito tab to read it.



The comment he's replying to isn't the nicest, but I hardly think it represents "horrible skating twitter." It's perfectly civil. If that's the worst twitter abuse he's ever received he's really lucky.

Right. I like Charlie, a nice guy, but he isn't exactly immune to or above his own criticism.

 

[nekkidgator]

Remember the days when a little-known athlete went to the Olympics and won a medal, possibly the first and only medal or title in their competitive career? How sweet was that? Very! Now, we have a micromanaged sport. May I see your resume, please? Sad. Very sad.

If you are asserting things have changed, give us an example of an American skater who won an Olympic medal who was "little-known".

 

[becca]

Nathan is a different story though-- he has numerous accolades, is clearly the US men's #1 by miles, and is competitive for a podium finish at any major ISU event.

Right I support body of work for the Nathan Chens.

 

[caseyedwards]

Miner didn't need to be perfect all other times, but maybe post some high scores internationally...I dunno, just once even?? Just one time would have helped his case. Instead, his wonderful Nationals program looks like an emotional fluke (perhaps his last Nationals appearance?) rather than an indication of how he typically competes or even practices.

He won some medals in smaller international events! COR and USC. He didn’t have the most sponsors and funding but what about all that talk that used to exist that nationals was important and the most important event to build up to? It’s not like he was ever that bad! Sometimes he didn’t have some jumps but wasn’t for lack of trying! You have to consider all the factors of being a skater!

 

[Skittl1321]

Since we're going for it, why not have the Olympic title decided over ten events, too?

What if there was event that only skaters who did well at previous events were allowed to go to? It wouldn't matter than some of them faced more difficult competition than others did at their previous events, making the qualifying inherently unfair, or that there was a really convoluted selection process and an even more ridiculous replacement process for skaters who pulled out of events, or that it favored skaters from countries that hosted the events, so that many skaters have no opportunity to skate in the qualifying events at all.

Oh wait, the GPF does that.

 

[nekkidgator]

Nathan is a different story though-- he has numerous accolades, is clearly the US men's #1 by miles, and is competitive for a podium finish at any major ISU event.

I agree. Nathan is all of these things. But does that mean Body of Work only applies if you have numerous accolades and competitive for the Olympic or any other podium? That reasoning would again open you up to favoritism and controversy by the posters on this board. Sigh. Remember, Nathan hasn't even medaled at Worlds ever. Under old rules from the 1990's, he wouldn't have even gotten a medical bye had he withdrawn this week due to illness.

 

[overedge]

And a Chen didn’t replace Miner rippon did.

How do you know that's how the team was decided?

Right I support body of work for the Nathan Chens.

I can't believe you're still saying how unfair the whole thing was, while arguing that one criterion should be applied to some skaters but not to others. How is that fair?

 

[Bellanca]

If you are asserting things have changed, give us an example of an American skater who won an Olympic medal who was "little-known".

I am referring to and talking about any Olympic athlete from all of the Olympic eligible sports, not just skating. The Olympic spirit, that is my point.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

What if there was event that only skaters who did well at previous events were allowed to go to? It wouldn't matter than some of them faced more difficult competition than others did at their previous events, making the qualifying inherently unfair, or that there was a really convoluted selection process and an even more ridiculous replacement process for skaters who pulled out of events, or that it favored skaters from countries that hosted the events, so that many skaters have no opportunity to skate in the qualifying events at all.

Oh wait, the GPF does that.

Haha. Don't get me started about how Alexandrovskaya & Windsor were the only gold medal winners from the 2017 World Junior Championships who did not get a senior Grand Prix assignment this season.

 

[nekkidgator]

I am referring to and talking about any Olympic athlete from all of the Olympic eligible sports, not just skating. The Olympic spirit, that is my point.

Gotcha. Your original post seem to relate it just to skating, as you said "now we have a micromanaged sport." To play devil's advocate, despite her success this past weekend and at Skate America, I guarantee you 98% of America has no clue who Bradie Tennell is. According to http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily-ratings/tv-ratings-friday-jan-5-2018/, less than 5 million Americans watched her win on Friday night.