The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Bigbird]

Some thoughts on Golden Spinn:

H/K
I know persons sing praises of H/K's Don Quixote, but why does it seem so sweet? They really need to study Cojocaru and Korburg to really get the essence of the dance. There should be far more sassiness and flirting on Hurtado's part and much more machismo coming from Khaliavin. It just seems flat. On the bright side though coming from Zhulin's team everything is clean and tidy.

Smart/Diaz
I really like their SD but they never seem to nail the levels. I don't really get their F/D though which is sad. Does this mean that they will not make the cut for the OG?

H/B
Why all the struggles with the twizzles in the SD?

B/S
Why didn't Zhulin at the very least change their S/D it really is unattractive and their FD is flat. That FD needs stellar skating skills and palpable chemistry a la S/B to make it really work. As I've said from the beginning of the season, Zhulin threw them under the bus.

Z/G
What's wrong here? They seem to be regressing as the season progresses. Is the K/A team more interested in S/A? They finished pretty low down the totem pole. Are they really weaker than Smart/Diaz? Are P/M really a sure bet for 4th place at RN?

 

[Bigbird]

p.s. But we're talking about apples and oranges here, if I am being honest. I do not like MR but I am not crazy about Moonlight either. Both are meh....nothing new or unique. The only reason I go with the the Moonlight is because of the flow it has.

Some days depending on the mood it actually feels rather monotonous. That day may be fast approaching though, if they keep pulling from their usual bag of tricks.

 

[Amantide]

Some days depending on the mood it actually feels rather monotonous. That day may be fast approaching though, if they keep pulling from their usual bag of tricks.

You mean the Moonlight? I feel like that since post Mozart. The title and music might've changed but the mood is the same in the last 2 seasons.
Great couple to watch though. But the programs are not my cup of tea. They use to have an edgy side that seems totally lost now.

 

[Bigbird]

You mean the Moonlight? I feel like that since post Mozart. The title and music might've changed but the mood is the same in the last 2 seasons.
Great couple to watch though. But the programs are not my cup of tea. They use to have an edgy side that seems totally lost now.

Yes, Moonlight. I really liked them in 2013 when yes they were a bit edgier. I think I just might be their number 1 Flamenco SD fan. Their tango should be stellar next season. Emphasis on the word should.

 

[chantilly]

V and M shouldn't waste their energy changing their programs.
The can add and find nuances and work to be perfect.
But I doubt it would matter if they would.
I think P and C would have to make errors to lose the gold.
I don't think P and C deserve the amount of 10's they're getting especially in interpretation.
The fugue part of their program lacks interpretation IMO. Or the choreography should shift to footwork in the transition and move the spin.
But the judges seem to prefer them especially in the FD.
V and M would need a 2 point cushion and a perfect FD to win gold.
It's pretty clear the judges are with P and C's programs.
I'm going to just enjoy V and M this last season and try not to think about the results.
I feel no matter what programs they would have chosen, it would have been highly scrutinized save a full Tango or blues.

 

[millyskate]

I think V&M have taken a bit of a risk with their program selection this year. And that is because both their SD and their FD have marmite quality to them, "you either love it or you hate it" elements. The intense facial expressions and poses? You either think it's great or find it forced and OTT (and it's for both programs, so if you dislike it in one, you'll probably dislike it in the other). The use of animal print mesh with rhinestones? You either love it or think it's awfully bad taste. *That lift*? It's either not an issue or it's disturbing. The stones' music? Either you're a fan, or you find the sound harsh and unpleasant to the point of wanting to hit the mute button (not just annoying, like the SD music of 90% of most teams). The MR theme? It's played so much at skating events that some people have grown sick of it. Not to mention, the theme has a controversial quality to it as well.

Those choices are polarising. You can't make all those decisions and expect everyone to be on board. P&C have been smarter. People can find Moonlight Sonata boring, but beyond that it's not going provoke any strong feelings in anyone. It's a hard program to passionately dislike. Ed Sheeran is not a masterpiece but it's easy listening - background music to be played in the car on your way to work, and you forget it as soon as it's over.


I do get that many feel V&M should be ahead due to difficulty. I guess it’s a bit like a piano competition where one contestant plays Mozart and another plays Rachmaninov. Is Mozart easier than Rachmaninov? Sure. Children can often play Mozart sonatas. But the Mozart playing contestants can win over the Rachmaninov playing ones. Purety and ethereal perfection are very rare, and rare because hard. The vast majority of pianists are less scared performing Rachmaninov than they are Mozart, because Mozart is so exposed.

That approach does put a greater pressure to perform the program flawlessly on the skaters: a mistake will break the spell.

 

[caseyedwards]

Some thoughts on Golden Spinn:

H/K
I know persons sing praises of H/K's Don Quixote, but why does it seem so sweet? They really need to study Cojocaru and Korburg to really get the essence of the dance. There should be far more sassiness and flirting on Hurtado's part and much more machismo coming from Khaliavin. It just seems flat. On the bright side though coming from Zhulin's team everything is clean and tidy.

Smart/Diaz
I really like their SD but they never seem to nail the levels. I don't really get their F/D though which is sad. Does this mean that they will not make the cut for the OG?

H/B
Why all the struggles with the twizzles in the SD?

B/S
Why didn't Zhulin at the very least change their S/D it really is unattractive and their FD is flat. That FD needs stellar skating skills and palpable chemistry a la S/B to make it really work. As I've said from the beginning of the season, Zhulin through them under the bus.

Z/G
What's wrong here? They seem to be regressing as the season progresses. Is the K/A team more interested in S/A? They finished pretty low down the totem pole. Are they really weaker than Smart/Diaz? Are P/M really a sure bet for 4th place at RN?

Maybe zhulin choked again with b/s! He destroyed their last Olympic season with that birds nonsense and he did it again. Why can’t Coaches get nervous and choke too? Who else was he working with Olympic potential? No one. It’s not even clear if s/k will medal at nationals . They probably will but Katsalapov is katsalapov.

 

[Wyliefan]

People can find Moonlight Sonata boring, but beyond that it's not going provoke any strong feelings in anyone.

I wouldn't say that. It provokes sheer adoration in many people. There are reasons Beethoven is a legend.

I do get that many feel V&M should be ahead due to difficulty. I guess it’s a bit like a piano competition where one contestant plays Mozart and another plays Rachmaninov. Is Mozart easier than Rachmaninov? Sure. Children can often play Mozart sonatas. But the Mozart playing contestants can win over the Rachmaninov playing ones. Purety and etherial perfection are very rare, and rare because hard. The vast majority of pianists are less scared performing Rachmaninov than they are Mozart, because Mozart is so exposed.

That approach does put a greater pressure to perform the program flawlessly on the skaters: a mistake will break the spell.

Excellent analogy. My piano teacher often says a similar thing about Mozart. The music is so transparent that there's nowhere to hide.

 

[Amantide]

That approach does put a greater pressure to perform the program flawlessly on the skaters: a mistake will break the spell.

I agree with everything you said, especially this part. And it has to be said P&C have done a great job with the execution of that program so far. Therefore, the "spell" hasn't been broken and that's their biggest strength they have with this program.

 

[Bigbird]

Maybe zhulin choked again with b/s! He destroyed their last Olympic season with that birds nonsense and he did it again. Why can’t Coaches get nervous and choke too? Who else was he working with Olympic potential? No one. It’s not even clear if s/k will medal at nationals . They probably will but Katsalapov is katsalapov.

But how could B/S allow Zhulin to do that again? From the moment they heard the SD music, didn't they just cringe? I mean once tossed like a dirty rag into the bushes twice shy and all that jazz, you know what I mean? It just screams utter madness

 

[Dobre]

The Transition:
Golden Spin marks the end of the Challenger Series so it seems like a good time to check back in on the teams transitioning to Seniors. It has, not surprisingly, been a bumpy international season. What I find so intriguing about this year’s crop of first-year seniors, though, is how much their scores have overlapped throughout the season. Last year’s new senior teams—even now in their second season—haven’t traded many scores; but this year’s top four junior teams have all swapped scores.

2017-2018 Freshman Class (AKA first-year senior teams):

Debut Senior Season Challenger, GP, and Major International Scores
163.14 The Parsons (Ondrej Nepela)
160.51 McNamara & Carpenter (Warsaw Cup)
157.61 McNamara & Carpenter (Cup of China)
155.72 Loboda & Drozd (Skate Canada)
155.55 Abachkina & Thauron (Internationaux de France)
154.50 McNamara & Carpenter (Autumn Classic)
154.40 Loboda & Drozd (Lombardia)
152.38 The Parsons (Golden Spin)
150.32 Loboda & Drozd (Golden Spin)—had a fall
148.75 The Parsons (Rostelecom)
145.85 Loboda & Drozd (Internationaux de France)
145.54 The Parsons (Skate America)
144.90 Abachkina & Thauron (Cup of China)
141.78 McNamara & Carpenter (Finlandia)--had a fall
140.86 Abachkina & Thauron (Ondrej Nepela)--had a fall
136.06 Popova & Byelikov (Tallinn Trophy)
117.30 Fukase & Tateno (Lombardia)
111.74 Damuleviciute & Kizala (Tallinn Trophy)


Sophomore Class (AKA second-year senior teams):

Second Senior Season Challenger, GP, and Major International Scores
157.62 Lauriault & Le Gac (NHK Trophy)
154.14 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Internationaux de France)
150.74 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Tallinn Trophy)—had a fall
150.47 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Cup of China)
150.42 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Lombardia)
150.28 Evdokmova & Bazin (Tallinn Trophy)
149.34 Lauriault & Le Gac (Autumn Classic)
147.19 Lauriault & Le Gac (Rostelecom)
136.81 Kuzmichova & Sinicyn (Rostelecom)
134.84 Sales & Wamsteeker (Nebelhorn)
127.12 Biechler & Dodge (U.S. Classic)
121.68 Kuzmichova & Sinicyn (Autumn Classic)
119.79 Biechler & Dodge (Finlandia)--had a fall


Put them together and what do you get?
163.14 The Parsons (Ondrej Nepela)
160.51 McNamara & Carpenter (Warsaw Cup)
157.62 Lauriault & Le Gac (NHK Trophy)
157.61 McNamara & Carpenter (Cup of China)
155.72 Loboda & Drozd (Skate Canada)
155.55 Abachkina & Thauron (Internationaux de France)
154.50 McNamara & Carpenter (Autumn Classic)
154.40 Loboda & Drozd (Lombardia)
154.14 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Internationaux de France)
152.38 The Parsons (Golden Spin)
150.74 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Tallinn Trophy)—had a fall
150.47 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Cup of China)
150.42 Pogrebinsky & Benoit (Lombardia)
150.32 Loboda & Drozd (Golden Spin)—had a fall
150.28 Evdokimova & Bazin (Tallinn Trophy)
149.34 Lauriault & Le Gac (Autumn Classic)
148.75 The Parsons (Rostelecom)
147.19 Lauriault & Le Gac (Rostelecom)
145.85 Loboda & Drozd (Internationaux de France)
145.54 The Parsons (Skate America)
144.90 Abachkina & Thauron (Cup of China)
141.78 McNamara & Carpenter (Finlandia)--had a fall
140.86 Abachkina & Thauron (Ondrej Nepela)--had a fall
136.81 Kuzmichova & Sinicyn (Rostelecom)
136.06 Popova & Byelikov (Tallinn Trophy)
134.84 Sales & Wamsteeker (Nebelhorn)
127.12 Biechler & Dodge (U.S. Classic)
121.68 Kuzmichova & Sinicyn (Autumn Classic)
119.79 Biechler & Dodge (Finlandia)--had a fall
117.30 Fukase & Tateno (Lombardia)
111.74 Damuleviciute & Kizala (Tallinn Trophy)

 

[Amantide]

Yes, Moonlight. I really liked them in 2013 when yes they were a bit edgier. I think I just might be their number 1 Flamenco SD fan. Their tango should be stellar next season. Emphasis on the word should.

The SD in 2015? Loved it. It was a bit dark-ish, if that makes sense. A kind of "mysterious" mood in it. It has that edge I'm talking about. But it wasn't enough, since that was a SD with strickt requirements. I was hoping this season they would come with smth like that for their FD.

But how could B/S allow Zhulin to do that again? From the moment they heard the SD music, didn't they just cringe? I mean once tossed like a dirty rag into the bushes twice shy and all that jazz, you know what I mean? It just screams utter madness

Blind faith? Idk.

 

[Jeanne7]

If V/M make their program coherent in itself and with the thing they want to say, it will take off.
For me, V/M's programs this season are here to make a statement :
"WE ARE THE BEST, WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS, LOOK AT US, LOOK AT OUR CAREER AND CROWN US BECAUSE IF WE ARE LEAVING, WE ARE LEAVING WITH A BANG !!!"
They are not invitations to an intimate dance, they are not invitations to heartwrenching drama.
They are spectacular, affirmative, lound and strong statements.
If their FD becomes coherent with that statement, it'll pay off big time.
(I'm not saying it will win, I'm saying it will move closer to P/C, up to a yet unknown point)

Right now, it states "look at how great we were, and even before that, and NOW we're leaving ..." *caw* *caw* *caw*
While it could state "we are leaving but look at how great we were, or rather HOW GREAT WE ARE !!!" *ROAR*

The first option is a death notice , the second is a coherent and strong statement.

Flawed logic & personal critique at its best.

 

[Nmsis]

MF Dubreuil, David Wilson and Sam Chouinard work as a team and have since they returned. Sam also works with MF with other teams as well. They don't divide programs into thirds and each take a section, they work together. Sam is a dancer, not a skater so it's really no different than MF making P/C´s program and bringing in Cirio to add hand movements. They used to work with Sam last season as well.

The work with Cirio was different.
"Cirio: The way it was to work was, they would work with their choreographer but leave space for me to fill."

They did divide the program. Not in slices, but in layers.
The footwork for Marie-France, the overall structure of the program, her conception of ice-dance (the neverending flow ...)
And he would do the arm movements, some choreographic moments (opening, ending), choreographic embellishments.
"Cizeron : He really respected the choreography, but he brought his vision"

She made the program effective, he made it rich with details.
That's why it works nicely, even with 2 choreographers.
Each had 100% control over her / his part.

 

[Nmsis]

The tango is about 2/3's of the dance anyway [or it seems to me that way, I didn't time it].

Timing is approximatly
Overall 4'04
Introduction 18'
Tango 1'53
Romance 1'33
Death 20'

If you maintain the intro + tango sequence, that's 2'11.
Remaining 1'53.

I understand NMSIS's suggestion although it is hard to make sense of (for me)

Think Anissina Peizerat 1998.

 

[caseyedwards]

But how could B/S allow Zhulin to do that again? From the moment they heard the SD music, didn't they just cringe? I mean once tossed like a dirty rag into the bushes twice shy and all that jazz, you know what I mean? It just screams utter madness

Putting aside recent rumors Soloviev will continue with a new partner after this season is over maybe they were thinking why create upheaval in their last season. Just do whatever to best of their ability. They obviously got over him wrecking their last Olympic season. Maybe they don’t even believe he did anything bad!

 

[marbri]

The work with Cirio was different.
"Cirio: The way it was to work was, they would work with their choreographer but leave space for me to fill."

They did divide the program. Not in slices, but in layers.
The footwork for Marie-France, the overall structure of the program, her conception of ice-dance (the neverending flow ...)
And he would do the arm movements, some choreographic moments (opening, ending), choreographic embellishments.
"Cizeron : He really respected the choreography, but he brought his vision"

She made the program effective, he made it rich with details.
That's why it works nicely, even with 2 choreographers.
Each had 100% control over her / his part.

Of course it was. Silly of me to compare the two really.

 

[mollymgr]

I don't know if it is a misconception, but I believe the judges don't like it when there is any confusion with a program. e.g. if it doesn't follow the movie storyline, if it is supposed to be from a movie. If they put the tango towards the end, that would create even more confusion.

 

[Nmsis]

Of course it was. Silly of me to compare the two really.

O, irony.

I'm comparing processes.
Dubreuil worked on the basis, the structure and the elements of the free and P/C trained on that for quite a while.
Then Cirio worked alone for a week with P/C during the summer (quite late, end of August if I'm to rely on the dates of Instagram posts) to fill in the blanks and embellish the whole dance.

Now, Scott Moir says this :
"They (Dubreuil, Wilson and Chouinard) were so professional and kind of checked their egos at the door and came up with a really unique product giftwrapped for us," he added. "They just drew it out of us".

Different processes.

 

[Marta24]

The GPF is hardly over and there we have Nationals to worry about
German, Spanish and Italian Nationals will take place next weekend. The Italian #1 and #2 are pretty clear, but I`m curious who is going to get the 3rd spot for Europeans. Spanish and German Nationals is going to be very, very exciting. H/K beat S/D by about 4 points in Zagreb, but the door is still wide open for S/D to make the Olympic team. There is a similar situation in Germany, where right now L/P are in front in the Olympic race, but M/D can still go ahead if they skate well at Nationals.
Then in two weeks we have Russian Nationals aka "The Hunger Games". IMO, it´s pretty clear who will be in the top 3, but who is going to get the second Oly spot? S/B or S/K? And can either of them challenge B/S for the #1 spot? Another interesting race will be who is going to be the new #4 in Russia. The fight here seems to be between Z/G and P/M.

Any guesses how these races will turn out?

 

[Anyasnake]

S/D got a 64 in the SD at Skate Canada, that's relevant.
I still don't know how it can turn out but H/K have a bit of an edge right now.

There are French Nats next weekend too... we might finally get to know who is going to the Olys between Lauriault/LeGac and Abachkina/Thauron. I know Abachkina has her French passeport, but Marie-Jade isn't French (yet), is she ? That will solve this, but I would be sad for them.

As for Russian Nats... I wonder if S/B can play spoiler and win. They are well packaged and their scores keep going up and up. But then S/K got some high scores from judges at the GPs and some with no clean skate.
B/S might have their olympic spot lockdown anyway because of their scores on the GPs series, all of them are high compared to the others (in total). And they almost qualified.

 

[caseyedwards]

The GPF is hardly over and there we have Nationals to worry about
German, Spanish and Italian Nationals will take place next weekend. The Italian #1 and #2 are pretty clear, but I`m curious who is going to get the 3rd spot for Europeans. Spanish and German Nationals is going to be very, very exciting. H/K beat S/D by about 4 points in Zagreb, but the door is still wide open for S/D to make the Olympic team. There is a similar situation in Germany, where right now L/P are in front in the Olympic race, but M/D can still go ahead if they skate well at Nationals.
Then in two weeks we have Russian Nationals aka "The Hunger Games". IMO, it´s pretty clear who will be in the top 3, but who is going to get the second Oly spot? S/B or S/K? And can either of them challenge B/S for the #1 spot? Another interesting race will be who is going to be the new #4 in Russia. The fight here seems to be between Z/G and P/M.

Any guesses how these races will turn out?

S/B exceeded expectations in GP. S/K exceeded expectations in GP. B/S really disappointed very badly in GP. Shanghai and Golden Spin did absolutely nothing for them. But why dump a 7 year number one? That’s their decision! Can making S/B new champion and euro medalist create momentum for them? B/S did beat P/C in Euros SD so that’s something for them. They are Olympic gold medalists and world medalists. Why trust s/k at all when they were 10th in FD at euros in January? Can’t be trusted. They had two good GP but will they be able to do lifts? You don’t know if s/k will be able to do lifts or twizzles.

1.B/s
2.S/B
3.S/k

B/S have been so stubbornly ineffective this season in SD and FD but they did almost win a GP.

 

[nlyoung]

As far as 1st or second, the top two are so close that judges can go either way depending on preference. Preference can be determined by a number of factors, including music choice, but also political positioning. It won't matter to other teams in the individual competition which team places first and which second, but it will matter a great deal in the team competition. If both teams skate clean I have no problem with any of the placements, but if one of the top two makes a visible error or two and the scores don't reflect that, it will definitely be a problem. Yesterday Scott had a visible trip at the beginning of the routine, hence, it wasn't "perfect". This may not have impacted the technical score much as it wasn't on an element, but would have given some judges the justification they needed to mark down just a little bit. Those little bits add up.

 

[Miloune]

S/D got a 64 in the SD at Skate Canada, that's relevant.
I still don't know how it can turn out but H/K have a bit of an edge right now.

There are French Nats next weekend too... we might finally get to know who is going to the Olys between Lauriault/LeGac and Abachkina/Thauron. I know Abachkina has her French passeport, but Marie-Jade isn't French (yet), is she ? That will solve this, but I would be sad for them.

As for Russian Nats... I wonder if S/B can play spoiler and win. They are well packaged and their scores keep going up and up. But then S/K got some high scores from judges at the GPs and some with no clean skate.
B/S might have their olympic spot lockdown anyway because of their scores on the GPs series, all of them are high compared to the others (in total). And they almost qualified.

Aren't Marie-Jade and Romain married? I think it helps to get the nationality but I don't know if she has it yet or no...

 

[barbarafan]

Flawed logic & personal critique at its best.

ITA- completely bogus. Off by a country mile

 

[Anyasnake]

Aren't Marie-Jade and Romain married? I think it helps to get the nationality but I don't know if she has it yet or no...

They are, that's why I'm surprised, because they didn't say anything about citizenship. It helps but I don't know if you have to be living in France for that (Or lived before, such as Angelique).

 

[Tak]

Think Anissina Peizerat 1998.

As someone who loved R&J and adored A/P, I think that dance worked because it wasn't telling the story backward - it was continuing it forward, picking up where Shakespeare left off. In the opening Juliet finds Romeo dead in the tomb, kills herself, and then both of them rise as spirits and have that gorgeous, lyrical final dance together. I loved it.

But in the case of MR, what would we be looking at? I mean, how do you envision the story line of the dance if she dies first? She comes back from the dead and they do this angry, driving, very hard edge dance together? That doesn't make any kind of sense.

Is he thinking about and remembering her? But again, the mood and feel of the tango doesn't fit with that interpretation - he's remembering how angry and upset he used to be???? And as someone else said, I just think it would totally confuse the audience, and maybe the judges too.

I think you did put your finger on the problem - the 2 totally different moods of this program totally clash, and I don't see how changing the order would fix that. Maybe if they want to keep the storyline, they could put in some kind of intermediate section to help explain the change in tone and make it seem less jarring? IDK.

I still think they should go with a straight tango to Roxanne. Their interpretation of THAT was great. I timed their GPF version off the TV, and they'd have to redo 1:49 to change the last part. Change the spin to tango positions, re-do the diagonal steps with more oomph, they could keep the last lift, and really WOW! the ending somehow. If they've got 3 choreographers they should be able to come up with something.

Im not sure if that's too much to do in 2 months or not, but I remember they once said they're a quick study. I think it would certainly improve the program and end with a bang. IMO they skate better when they skate with conviction and attitude. It's what made Prince such a great program for them. They need to bring that spark to the whole of this program.

However, some people are sounding like they think they CAN'T win, and I don't believe that. I still think it's 50/50. C/P have a better program, but V/M are great technicians, and could win with technique. I think whoever makes the least mistakes will win the gold, no matter the program. It will come down to nerves , and V/M have been through this twice before. So I wouldn't give up on them winning. But making their program stronger would certainly help.

 

[Spun Silver]

Yes! An eloquent defense of the all-tango position.

I feel like for some reason V/M have been program-challenged since their OGM. I would really like them to get this one right and go out with a bang. The judges want to give the gold to P/C, IMO, but with a better vehicle V/M can make that a lot harder for them. I hope somehow @Tak's post makes its way to Tessa and Scott, and soon!

 

[Bigbird]

My two cents, I love the program just as it is. However, judges don't like complexity without absolute ease, and they also don't want to think too hard about what a dance means. P/C allows them to just be swept away by the beauty of what they do, even though its somewhat same old same old, its a safe bet.

V/M's biggest issue is their mindset. They skated their material absolutely beautifully at SK, albeit there were mistakes. They need to relax and allow the choreography to breathe. For both the SD and FD they were trying way too hard and it shows, especially Scott. Also, their SD costumes are way too abrasive and Scott's costume for the FD is way too understated, he needs a suit. IMHO, these little changes could really improve their impact. Will they win OG? Only their performance on the day will determine that.

EDIT: Scott's choreo at the beginning of the free dance is not quite elegant enough, something is off there.

 

[mollymgr]

I agree about judges not wanting to think too much about a program. We don't want them daydreaming into the next few teams trying to figure out what this complex choreography is supposed to mean. They do get to "preview" it during the practice sessions and take notes. Ice dance is weird where even the performance in practice can have an impact.

I liked the new realtime scoring box which now identifies the element and displays the GOEs. While I don't like to look at it during the live performance, it was nice to be able to go back and see the elements being scored.