The Dance Hall 5: Ice Dance Fans 2017-2018

[Dobre]

Actually, there seems to be some problem this year because Chock/Bates had also quite some downgrade in their SD debut last week at CoC.
3 on partial step seq
3 on the pattern
2 on the non touching
Ok those are all step sequences, traditionally harder to get level 4 but on the pattern the top teams managed to get level 4 on the first outing, plus the level 2 for a team whose rather good in the SD. I was surprised by that score.

Weaver & Poje had a level 3 on the rhumba at the Autumn Classic.
Cappellini & Lanotte had a level 3 on the rhumba at the Minsk Challenger.
Gilles & Poirier had a level 2 on the rhumba at the Autumn Classic.
Stepanova & Bukin had a level 1 on the rhumba at Finlandia.
(And Bobrova & Soloviev had a level 3 on the rhumba at Cup of China, though they had 4s at their previous 2 outings).

The assistant tech specialist at Cup of China has been at the U.S. Classic the last two seasons and almost never gives higher than a level 2 footwork sequence there.

 

[firstflight]

Furthering the question mark about Coomes/Buckland's PCS at NHK comes from a look at the protocols. For instance, for Interpretation of Music/Timing, here are the judges' marks in the SD and FD:
9.00 8.50 8.50 8.25 8.25 7.75 7.75 8.00 7.00
7.25 8.00 7.75 8.00 8.25 7.75 7.50 9.00 8.00

Does anyone remember another set of marks for the same team at the same competition that ranged from 7.00 to 9.00?

 

[Anyasnake]

Furthering the question mark about Coomes/Buckland's PCS at NHK comes from a look at the protocols. For instance, for Interpretation of Music/Timing, here are the judges' marks in the SD and FD:
9.00 8.50 8.50 8.25 8.25 7.75 7.75 8.00 7.00
7.25 8.00 7.75 8.00 8.25 7.75 7.50 9.00 8.00

Does anyone remember another set of marks for the same team at the same competition that ranged from 7.00 to 9.00?

Weirdest flight of PCS I've ever seen. An indicator would be which country gave which mark.
1. FRA 2.RUS 3.ITA 4.ISR 5.CAN 6.USA 7.UKR 8.CHN 9.JPN

 

[millyskate]

This is completely weird. It's like they've been out so long the judges have forgotten where they normally put them and are a bit lost

 

[VGThuy]

Furthering the question mark about Coomes/Buckland's PCS at NHK comes from a look at the protocols. For instance, for Interpretation of Music/Timing, here are the judges' marks in the SD and FD:
9.00 8.50 8.50 8.25 8.25 7.75 7.75 8.00 7.00
7.25 8.00 7.75 8.00 8.25 7.75 7.50 9.00 8.00

Does anyone remember another set of marks for the same team at the same competition that ranged from 7.00 to 9.00?

The only thing I can remember is Kaiori Sakamoto at Rostelecom Cup SP a few weeks ago where she received scores in the 6.0 range and the 9.0 range (the French judge):

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gprus2017/gprus2017_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

 

[MarieM]

I think their SD is fantastic so I understand how you give them more in the SD, without any problems.

 

[chapis]

This is completely weird. It's like they've been out so long the judges have forgotten where they normally put them and are a bit lost

So maybe those scores are more real. They don´t need remember anything, they are judging what is happening at the moment.

 

[marbri]

Coomes/ Buckland, for me, are a bit like Chait/Saknovsky where you have some judges inexplicably giving them top five PCS and others wondering wtf they are smoking and marking them appropriately.

I think they are the perfect team to highlight the problems that do exist in ice dance judging as they are the team used by some to try to manipulate the rankings of others.

 

[firstflight]

This is completely weird. It's like they've been out so long the judges have forgotten where they normally put them and are a bit lost

It's like the different panels are judging a completely different team. The judges at Nebelhorn gave them personal bests in both the SD and FD and didn't have the wide range in PCS:
8.50 8.00 9.25 9.00 9.25 8.00 8.50 9.00 9.00

Cup of Nice:
8,50 8,50 8,50 9,00 8,75 8,25 8,50

 

[VGThuy]

I think Nebelhorn was also influenced by the fact that Olympic spots were on the line.

 

[vireo]

The assistant tech specialist at Cup of China has been at the U.S. Classic the last two seasons and almost never gives higher than a level 2 footwork sequence there.

Yes, Elek is a bear on the levels. He's the one who gave Hubbell/Donahue level 2 on both their PSt and twizzels at their season debut at US Classic.

At Cup of China, where Eleck was ATS, Bobrovo/Soloviev scored four points less in the SD than at their first GP. They lost a level on their rhumba and two levels on on the non-touch step sequence compared to Rostelecom. They also lost a level on the non-touch compared to Nepela.

I wish the ISU was able to keep judging standards more consistent across competitions. Granted that's very difficult to do in a subjective sport judged by human beings.

 

[chapis]

Yes, Elek is a bear on the levels. He's the one who gave Hubbell/Donahue level 2 on both their PSt and twizzels at their season debut at US Classic.

At Cup of China, where Eleck was ATS, Bobrovo/Soloviev scored four points less in the SD than at their first GP. They lost a level on their rhumba and two levels on on the non-touch step sequence compared to Rostelecom. They also lost a level on the non-touch compared to Nepela.

I wish the ISU was able to keep judging standards more consistent across competitions. Granted that's very difficult to do in a subjective sport judged by human beings.

But it is not the Technical controller who decides? How can we be sure that it was Eleck who gave those levels?

eta. I checked it, it is the contrary.

 

[Anyasnake]

But it is not the Technical controller who decides? How can we be sure that it was Eleck who gave those levels?

Nope Technical Specialist decides. And if the ATS disagrees, the TC steps in and make the final call.

 

[chapis]

T/T are listed to Skate America, but they left some competitions. Do you think they will withdraw again? I was thinking if they will invite to Penny and Nicholas but M/C only had 1 GP so, maybe they will invite them.

 

[oleada]

T/T are listed to Skate America, but they left some competitions. Do you think they will withdraw again? I was thinking if they will invite to Penny and Nicholas but M/C only had 1 GP so, maybe they will invite them.

There are already 3 American teams at SA so McNamara/Carpenter could not be added

 

[aka_gerbil]

T/T are listed to Skate America, but they left some competitions. Do you think they will withdraw again? I was thinking if they will invite to Penny and Nicholas but M/C only had 1 GP so, maybe they will invite them.

There are already three US entries at Skate America, so if T/T pull out, it can't be M/C for the replacement.

 

[chapis]

oh thanks, so they totally should invite to C/B. Those scores are harsh but I think it is the best to get more realistic scores before Europeans and Olympic games.

 

[Anyasnake]

oh thanks, so they totally should invite to C/B. Those scores are harsh but I think it is the best to get more realistic scores before Europeans and Olympic games.

I hope they will, I want to see that FD again. And for them to get more exposure.

 

[firstflight]

Aside from Coomes/B PCS scores the rest of the season, I'm also curious about whether N/N's PCS hold above F-B/S the rest of the season or if it was just an NHK-specific anomaly.

Again, M/R's PCS did hold steady between Nebelhorn and NHK while C/B's did not.

 

[Dobre]

There was no top competition at Nebelhorn and none at Cup of Nice. And both events were in Western Europe. It was always likely the standard would be tougher on the GP in a field full of top teams. (And NHK is a full field. One of the deepest fields on the GP this season). It was always likely that Coomes & Buckland's scores would go down with them competing head-to-head with all these teams. The placement in the short was predictable. What was not were all those dropped levels in the FD. I'm sure their team will be working very hard, and those levels will be up substantially at the next event.

Coomes & Buckland have never been predictable. They've had so many crazy health issues that have interrupted their career. Making headway has been very uneven.

Just in 2015-2016 . . .

-They started off the season with no ranking from Worlds due to pulling out of 2015 Worlds for health reasons. They had started off the previous season with a medal at Rostelecom and a 2nd place finish in the SD at NHK before splatting out of the medals there and ending the season with a bombed short dance at 2015 Europeans, where they had scored 60.16 behind Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson, Testa & Csolley, Guignard & Fabbri, Hurtado & Diaz, Zhiganshina & Gazsi . . . you get the picture.

-Then they began the 2015-2016 season at Nepela with a second place finish behind Gilles & Poirier and above the Shibs and Testa & Csolley. (That was a WTH set of results).

-Then went to Trophee Eric Bompard and finished behind Hubbell & Donohue, Gilles & Poirier, and Stepanova & Bukin and above Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson.

-Then went to NHK and finished behind the Shibs, Bobrova & Soloviev, Hubbell & Donohue, and Stepanova & Bukin.

-Then went to Europeans where they finished 8th in the short dance behind Fournier-Beaudry & Sorenson and Guignard & Fabbri and inches above Testa & Csolley but moved up to finish 6th overall above all three teams and behind Sinitsina & Katsalapov and Stepanova & Bukin.
(At this point it seems like a pretty safe bet that Coomes & Buckland are somewhere behind Stepanova & Bukin).

-Then went to Worlds where C&B finished 7th above Gilles & Poirier, Sinitsina & Katsalapov, Guignard & Fabbri, and Stepanova and Bukin. And five places below the Shibs.

Note: At some point during the season C&B switched coaches. There was also a Brit on the tech panel at the 2016 Worlds. And a Ukrainian caller at this year's NHK so, yes, of course, it's worth watching to see if Nazarova & Nikitin can match these Personal Best scores later in the season. (I love that FD regardless).

 

[chapis]

Aside from Coomes/B PCS scores the rest of the season, I'm also curious about whether N/N's PCS hold above F-B/S the rest of the season or if it was just an NHK-specific anomaly.

Again, M/R's PCS did hold steady between Nebelhorn and NHK while C/B's did not.

But M/R were competing in Japan, everyone get home inflation, in fact I thought they did not get much benefit, their FD especially was great, better than Nebelhorn IMO, their TES were lower, but I guess if Japan does not do much for Wakaba, they won´t do much for M/R.

 

[firstflight]

There was no top competition at Nebelhorn and none at Cup of Nice. And both events were in Western Europe. It was always likely the standard would be tougher on the GP in a field full of top teams. (And NHK is a full field. One of the deepest fields on the GP this season). It was always likely that Coomes & Buckland's scores would go down with them competing head-to-head with all these teams. The placement in the short was predictable. What was not were all those dropped levels in the FD. I'm sure their team will be working very hard, and those levels will be up substantially at the next event.

Yes, of course all this was true. What makes the PCS thing for them weirder than just your explanation, however, was the spread from 7.0 to 9.0 that we were discussing earlier. That means we need more data about where the judges are going to land them. Yes, they are almost for sure going to be behind a clean S/B at the Olympics.

 

[Anyasnake]

But M/R were competing in Japan, everyone get home inflation, in fact I thought they did not get much benefit, their FD especially was great, better than Nebelhorn IMO, their TES were lower, but I guess if Japan does not do much for Wakaba, they won´t do much for M/R.

They might still not give enough importance to Ice Dance in Japan... they could have gone with the home inflation for them actually, their FD was really good.
(I'm not saying that they should ! I hate home inflation since some teams will never get it, not competiting in their home country).

 

[Dobre]

Yes, they are almost for sure going to be behind a clean S/B at the Olympics.

Actually, I meant that comment regarding what seemed likely after Europeans in 2016. Coomes & Buckland had finished behind Stepanova & Bukin three times head-to-head that season. But at Worlds, C&B finished four places above Stepanova & Bukin.

I'm not sure that even more data will make Coomes & Buckland predictable. I do expect their FD base value to go up substantially.


Note: Coomes & Buckland's debut CS score at Nebelhorn was 11 points higher than Stepanova & Bukin's debut CS score at Finlandia. Comparing scores--especially debut scores--across different events just isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[firstflight]

Actually, I meant that comment regarding what seemed likely after Europeans in 2016. Coomes & Buckland had finished behind Stepanova & Bukin three times head-to-head that season. But at Worlds, C&B finished four places above Stepanova & Bukin.

I'm not sure that even more data will make Coomes & Buckland predictable. I do expect their FD base value to go up substantially.

Gotcha (the present tense confused me ). As for your N/N comment about the Ukrainian caller, that's why I like comparing PCS, not TES. It would be huge for them if they indeed have leapt ahead of F-B/S in the judges' mind in skating skills.

 

[Dobre]

Gotcha (the present tense confused me ). As for your N/N comment about the Ukrainian caller, that's why I like comparing PCS, not TES. It would be huge for them if they indeed have leapt ahead of F-B/S in the judges' mind.

I think PCS trails after TES, and that breakthroughs happen on the first mark. PCS fluctuates with panels, consistency, location. Win the TES mark again and again & your PCS goes up. Lose the TES mark & your PCS goes down.

 

[firstflight]

I think PCS trails after TES, and that breakthroughs happen on the first mark. PCS fluctuates with panels, consistency, location. Win the TES mark again and again & your PCS goes up. Lose the TES mark & your PCS goes down.

How does this apply to the NHK trophy though? N/N *lost* the FD TES to both the French and the Danish teams but beat them both in the PCS. They still placed behind F-B/S in the FD, and both teams scored a FD personal best by quite a margin, so it wasn’t like the judges were trying to dump the Danes.

It catches my eye when the PCS order changes between the SD and FD, which happened here with N/N and F-B/S. Also, it catches my eyes when a team beats another team in the PCS for the first time head-to-head, which also happened here with these two couples. I think in this case, it may be just that this panel particularly enjoyed their FD, like you listed as a reason for PCS fluctuations.

 

[kittysk8ts]

(I'm not saying that they should ! I hate home inflation since some teams will never get it, not competiting in their home country).

I hate it too. It makes absolutely no sense to me. How is it helpful? I guess it could be helpful for someone at the lower end of the pack attempting to obtain a minimum qualifying score but how is it helpful to a top team? Off the top of my head; Gilles/Poirier scoring 80+ for the SD at a Challenger series event last season in Canada. They have never even come close to that in any subsequent competition. How did that help them? Especially early in the season when they are trying to gauge their levels. It is actually kind of rude to do this. Give them an accurate score and proper feedback. Plus it unnecessarily gets us all arguing in here when we have enough to argue about. HAHA.

Phew. Felt good to get THAT one off my chest. Lol.

 

[VGThuy]

Remember Ilinykh/Zhiganshin's scores at Mordovian Ornament at the beginning of the 2015-2016 season. Those huge scores they got certainly set them up for disappointment later on. Too bad that competition didn't continue, I bet many skaters would have loved to have competed there to get tech. minimums. Who were the callers and judges there?

 

[Dobre]

Gilles/Poirier scoring 80+ for the SD at a Challenger series event last season in Canada. They have never even come close to that in any subsequent competition.

Gilles & Poirier didn't compete at the Challenger event in Canada last season. The event you are thinking of is probably Skate Canada Challenge, which is a qualifying competition for Canadian nationals and not an international event.

G&P's ISU personal best in the short dance is 72.83 from Worlds last season.