How To Successfully Deal With Harrassment

[Tinami Amori]

Well actually it is quite serious. And that you joke about it doesn't really engender much respect towards yourself.

Which part of "me and Vagabond are horsing around" did you miss?...

 

[Vagabond]

Do I dare say that I was joking and being serious at the same time? The way I usually am?

Kudos to those who got the joke. I thought it was my best post in quite a long time.

https://youtu.be/JZYVYmqc7lE?t=193

 

[Japanfan]

Oh, good... I thought it was something serious.

The post you quoted as mine, to which you gave this reply, is not mine (see #20). I think you started saying something to me, but copied another poster's text. You might want to check.

Thanks. It's too late for me to edit it. Maybe an admin could delete the post (#20)?

 

[Tinami Amori]

Do I dare say that I was joking and being serious at the same time? The way I usually am?

Kudos to those who got the joke. I thought it was my best post in quite a long time.

https://youtu.be/JZYVYmqc7lE?t=193

I thought we're talking about a "butt slap" and "abuse of employees"....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJhTZeAs8NI

.... my FA-VOR-ITE american comedy.... and yes, your previous post was just to die for...

 

[Aussie Willy]

Which part of "me and Vagabond are horsing around" did you miss?...

Hmmm you have said quite enough that what you are saying does not come across as a joke.

 

[Vagabond]

Hmmm you have said quite enough that what you are saying does not come across as a joke.

People say inappropriate things and couch it i...I was just kidding.

Do the math.

 

[rfisher]

What to do? Report it. Tell the person to stop. And then report and document that you reported.

A radiologist once sat down between a co-worker and I and put his hands on our knees. We both gave him the Babs stare and I said if you do that again, I will tell Dr. S (who was his supervisor). Never happened again. So, in this instance, it stopped when we said stop.

I have a student who just made comments in her weekly reflection paper about a technologist who likes to talk about all his "hot" girlfriends when the student is around. It makes her uncomfortable. I went to the clinical supervisor and requested they talk to the individual. That's step one. If I hear that it continues to happen, I'll go to the department supervisor. Step two. Then on up the chain of command. If a student/employee reports this, you have to act.

But, just because a man (or woman) says something to you that's sexually related, it doesn't mean it's harassment. If your employment or an evaluation is contingent, it is. Otherwise, it might be stalking. Which is an entirely different situation. Student/teacher relationships = harassment. Walking down the street and some guy whistles, is not.

You also have to be careful about peoples careers. When I was in grad school, there was a professor who seldom looked you in the eye. He wasn't looking at your breasts, he was just uncomfortable with female archaeologists. One day a fellow student in a class wanted to meet with all the other female students. She wanted us to file a sexual harassment charge against this professor (she didn't like her grade in the class). She tried to bully some of the class into agreeing with her. I said no. I didn't particularly like the guy, but he'd done nothing that could be construed as sexual harassment. Another grad student also said no. So, women (or men) need to understand what is and what isn't harassment.

OTOH, I knew a professor as an undergrad who certainly could have been charged with harassment if other students heard what he said. He always talked about his female students and what he'd like to do to them. Right up until a nursing student who was failing his class, actually offered to sleep with him if he'd give her a passing grade. Freaked him out. Fortunately for him, she didn't decide to turn it around and accuse him of offering to pass her if she'd had sex with him.

So, what do you do? Say stop. Then start reporting and be sure of what you're doing. And understand the difference in harassment, and stalking. They aren't the same. A man who asks for a date isn't harassing you. If you tell him no and he persists, then file for a restraining order. Many people seem to be confusing the two issues.

 

[Scrufflet]

rfisher, you make some excellent points. What stands out for me is that you are very clear on your own boundaries. And that you state them very early on. Young people can learn a lot from this. Took me longer.

 

[rfisher]

rfisher, you make some excellent points. What stands out for me is that you are very clear on your own boundaries. And that you state them very early on. Young people can learn a lot from this. Took me longer.

Any situation where there is an imbalance of power can be a problem. Students/teachers, employees/co-workers (not an imbalance of power but a work place environment situation)/supervisors can be of concern. The one thing I try to tell our students is to report to me. Many don't because they are concerned that the tech they work with will give them a bad evaluation. In spite of my telling them that will not be an issue. This is a cultural issue where one person thinks the power all resides with the other. When I was in radiography school, there was a surgeon who liked to get female students in the elevator and grab them. He did this to one of my classmates. She finally told our instructor about it who waited until the doc was in the radiology reading room surrounded by all the radiologists and walked up to him and told him if he ever put his hands on another student, she'd kick his balls up to his eyeballs. He kept his hands to himself after that. Turned out there were multiple students that this had happened to and none of them said anything because he was a "doctor." The other side of the story is that there were also multiple students who were looking for a doctor to date and went along with this quite happily. This two-sided situation exacerbated the issue with this guy. So, recognizing that you do have power and learning not to abuse the power are two different things.

 

[gkelly]

When I was 20, I was going to acting school in NYC for a semester and I needed to find a place to live for 6-7 months. Not an easy task.

I went through classified ads in the NY Times and Village Voice looking for roommates. Some of the ads directed you to roommate-matching services. I gave some of those a try if the room they advertised met my needs.

One turned out to be a 40ish guy who worked out of his apartment. He and his whole operation seemed sleazy: He took phone calls during our meeting from friend with whom he was making plans to go out that evening and meet women that he described as 10s (or other high numbers on a rating scale). Most of the apartment-sharing situations he presented me were too expensive for my budget. He suggested some alternatives where I could pay little or no rent if I were willing to do favors for the landlords, including sexual favors. I declined those options.

At this point in my apartment search I was getting a bit desperate and probably started crying. He offered to comfort me with a hug, which I accepted. But when he put his hand on my butt and asked if I wanted to go in the bedroom, I said I just wanted to keep this professional and sat down again. He accepted that. But he wasn't able to help me find a place to live.

I ended up staying in a women's residence where male guests weren't even allowed upstairs at all. More restrictive than I'd prefer, but at least it was safe and affordable and in midtown walking distance to the acting school and most other places I wanted to go.

 

[rfisher]

And @gkelly, I wouldn't consider this sexual harassment (and neither would the law). It was a guy running an escort/prostitution ring disguised as a roommate service. Looking for gullable people. Not legal by any means, but also not the definition of harassment. Obviously, they had enough people to agree and he made a profit. I'm sure if you'd agreed to a free rent situation, you'd have found there was a fee to be paid back to the service. They made money somewhere along the chain.

Pity you weren't an undercover vice cop.

 

[millyskate]

I read this passage in a French book, written by a doctor. It stuck with me because it's a principle I have always applied, and sometimes been questioned for applying. But I have found it really useful, and the passage really resonated with me.

"And the best piece of advice I was ever given, the biggest life lesson I have ever received, I received it from my mother when I was a very small girl.

"Trust yourself and listen to yourself. If the person opposite is making you feel uncomfortable, and even if this person is an adult, it's never, never you who are wrong. You have an alarm bell inside you, listen to it when it rings".

This idea that I had an alarm bell inside me, that it was always right, always allowed me to run from the very first step.

That vague sense of unease isn't a vague sense of unease. It's your alarm bell ringing. And if it's ringing, it's because it's right to ring. End of story.

Now that I'm a grown-up, or almost, I've lost count of all the times that this alarm has saved me. And I'm yet to hear it ring by mistake. On the rare occasions when I did not listen to it right away, because it was so small I believed it to be out of tune, the next steps proved me she had been right, again, since the start.

Of course, at first, it was about protecting me against perverts.
Then I realised it also protected me against non-sexual perverts.
Then I realised it also helped me in many different occasions.
Then I realised it also helped me in my medical consultations."

 

[Tinami Amori]

I prefer the method of lowering the heaviest object I can lift onto the perp's head as fast as I can.

And one of those men might have returned the punch, flipped the switchblade out of your hand and knocked you senseless - executive or not.

Punching is not the wisest strategy for one woman dealing with multiple men who are bigger and stronger than her, and drunk to boot.

But they did not. In my assessment at the time what i did was the best option. I was right... was safe... finished my project.... and that's all that counts. In a different situation, a different action.

Thanks. It's too late for me to edit it. Maybe an admin could delete the post (#20)?

No problem, keep it as is, or go into "edit".... or not... but leaving it as is may mislead others into thinking i'm a nice sensitive person....

Hmmm you have said quite enough that what you are saying does not come across as a joke.

if you will ever come across a sexual harasser/ess (and i hope not), may the worst one be like me..

Do the math.

… going "schizo" is not good….

But, just because a man (or woman) says something to you that's sexually related, it doesn't mean it's harassment.

I absolutely agree with Rfisher that not every comment about sex or a set of gestures constitutes “sexual harassment”. It can be another just as harmful action or an innocent one. An invitation to date, or a touch on the shoulder for example, or a sex-related joke may not be welcomed and very inappropriate (for other reasons), and the recipient should state objections, and such wish should be respected, but it is not “sexual harassment”. To throw everything into one basked of “sexual harassment” does not help to fight real sexual harassment and attacks, as people might see such as “boy who cried wolf once too often”.

 

[Scrufflet]

Any situation where there is an imbalance of power can be a problem. Students/teachers, employees/co-workers (not an imbalance of power but a work place environment situation)/supervisors can be of concern. The one thing I try to tell our students is to report to me. Many don't because they are concerned that the tech they work with will give them a bad evaluation. In spite of my telling them that will not be an issue. This is a cultural issue where one person thinks the power all resides with the other. When I was in radiography school, there was a surgeon who liked to get female students in the elevator and grab them. He did this to one of my classmates. She finally told our instructor about it who waited until the doc was in the radiology reading room surrounded by all the radiologists and walked up to him and told him if he ever put his hands on another student, she'd kick his balls up to his eyeballs. He kept his hands to himself after that. Turned out there were multiple students that this had happened to and none of them said anything because he was a "doctor." The other side of the story is that there were also multiple students who were looking for a doctor to date and went along with this quite happily. This two-sided situation exacerbated the issue with this guy. So, recognizing that you do have power and learning not to abuse the power are two different things.

Love the surgeon story!

 

[Japanfan]

But, just because a man (or woman) says something to you that's sexually related, it doesn't mean it's harassment. If your employment or an evaluation is contingent, it is. Otherwise, it might be stalking. Which is an entirely different situation. Student/teacher relationships = harassment. Walking down the street and some guy whistles, is not.

I remember walking down the street near the house one time when a group of men - construction workers IIRC - hooted and whistled at me for some time. I definitely felt harassed.

The same happened quite regularly when I was younger and used to walk down a street filled with restaurants and shops late in the evening, on my way home after hanging out with friends. This was in the summer, when I'd be wearing shorts and tank tops, or a summer dress (not an excuse for honking whistling at). I'd get honked and whistled at constantly.

Interestingly, when I walked down the same street in similar attire with my dog, a lab shepherd cross, no one honked or whistled. The mere presence of a dog caused male drivers to perceive me as off limits, even though the dog obviously couldn't intervene with them honking or whistling.

 

[once_upon]

I think that harassment can take place in many different forms. For women and men who feel threatened by another in terms of sexual threat - that can happen in the workplace, in a patient/healthcare provider relationship, in a social situation. The biggest part of harassment is the abuse of power or implied power by other.

A work environment one that was not male harassment but a female harassing another is a rather bizarre one example. A previous boss bought as a gift one of her employees a black slip because the boss' perception was the employee need fashion assistance with undergarments. totally inappropriate, but none of us felt comfortable telling her or HR about this.

Medical field is fraught with abuse of power in a sexual harassment way. One physician while I was in school was known by all the instructors, dean and even the CEO to be a threat to female students, nurses, and patients. We were warned repeatedly to never be in a patient room, an exam room, or a hallway alone with this man. Even during a code situation, he would be grabbing someone's ass. He was an exceptional cardiologist and everything was overlooked because he brought in revenue. Yes - as rfisher pointed out there were nurses, student nurses and patients who thought that he would divorce his wife for them, several of them became pregnant (which he paid for out of state abortions for) and at least one had the baby thinking he would marry her.

If you are purchasing a service, such as medical care or lawn service or cable or any situation where a person, female or male, is made uncomfortable by the suggestions, the comments, the feeling of domination that is harassment.

In social situations, where one has fear of the other is harassment. Sure there seems to be a reclaiming of your own power as a solution, but in many situations women have been programmed to be subservient. And there are those who take advantage of that cultural norm.

Sure, we can take control of the situation by reclaiming power, but often times the feeling of power is fleeting or occurs much later. If we begin to name it, to recognize it, to empower each other that fights the feeling of being harassed. Too often we, both males and females, brush it under the rug.

But kicking someone in the nuts, or slug them, or otherwise use force is inappropriate in my estimation.

 

[Japanfan]

In social situations, where one has fear of the other is harassment. Sure there seems to be a reclaiming of your own power as a solution, but in many situations women have been programmed to be subservient. And there are those who take advantage of that cultural norm.

It's hard for women to reclaim their power in a situation where they are in a power imbalance. I'm all for women learning self-defense, but when harassment is less direct or less forceful than a full-on physical attack, and there are no witnesses, the situation becomes he-said versus she-said, and the woman who reports it may not be taken seriously and could lose her standing at work, perhaps even her position.

I'm not in the workplace, but SFAIK harassment is normalized to a certain degree and men often have more power than women.

But kicking someone in the nuts, or slug them, or otherwise use force is inappropriate in my estimation.

I think it really depends on the situation. If the person doing the harassing employs force, using force in return might be appropriate. But pepper spray would be even more effective.