U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[SmallFairy]

Those Aladdin program arm movements may have convinced you, but I was not convinced. I mean good for Malinina for sticking with the program and trying really hard and believing in herself, and skating it cleanly in 1999. She had a good season. She was not a great skater. To each their own.

I never got her as a skater, it's the Alladin arms and program, cause her jumps were very good, but I did have a soft spot for her. She seemed genuinely nice and coming from a small federation with bad training conditions, I just wanted the best for her. (though not the world medal in 99... She married Roman Skornyakov, right? And their coach died mid-season 98 or 99? Hard times for them. But she did win GP-final in 99/00 didn't she? So she got a title, good for her!!

Sorry, hijacking again!

 

[Areski]

She is in Stockholm, Sweden.

Not that far from Denmark

 

[Deleted member 19433]

I'm so glad to hear she's happy and still involved in skating. She had her big chance to medal at 98 worlds, being second after the SP, and what a fab SP that was. She was very good also in 99, but in 00 I believe she had a horrid qualifying round at Euros, it wasn't broadcasted (to my knowledge) but commentators said she fell 8 (!) times. Still qualified, but made mistakes in both SP and FS. Was that her last year competing?

Sorry, hijacking the US-thread with Rechnio

Her qualifying round at Euros 2000 is on Youtube. It wasn't a good skate but she didn't actually fall at all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpDZa8SIBN0

That was her last year competing.

 

[smarts1]

Karen did it!!!! Now bring it in the FS!!

 

[Firedancer]

Great job Karen Chen!!

 

[olympic]

OH WOW. Episode IV - A New Hope. LOL

Let's hope that CHEN is a lucky name at this worlds

 

[aftershocks]

http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk Episode #26

Lynn Rutherford claims that "people on the Internet don't realize how much power they have." In reference to Ash Wagner changing her program to address the rampant "two-foot skating" complaints/critiques.

 

[AxelAnnie]

That was a great skate from
Ashley. I am pleasantly surprised. Saw the scores first thought for sure she missed a jump.

 

[B.Cooper]

http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk Episode #26

Lynn Rutherford claims that "people on the Internet don't realize how much power they have." In reference to Ash Wagner changing her program to address the rampant "two-foot skating" complaints/critiques.

And, what....Ashely and Raf don't listen or pay attention to the officials or judges feedback/ critiques or review her performances? She has had so much 2-fted skating for years. If she wants to be at the top, gotta embrace change.

 

[smarts1]

I watched a run through of her FS, and I liked a lot of the changes they made in the second half.

 

[olympic]

A little puzzled by Diva Wagner's SP score. I assumed there was a small mistake in there when I glanced at the score in real time, but after seeing the protocols, she nailed all the elements including a 3-3 and got all LV4 except LV3 on the FW.

I guess international judges have taken to dinging her on GOE??? I'll be honest. I don't like the program musically, but a clean Wagner w/ no UR would usually score above 70. As it stands she's stuck in the penultimate group.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Unfortunately, Ashley is coming in as second American. There has been an unfortunate tendency to look down on Ash by U.S. fed and thus ISU as well doesn't always give her as much credit as she deserves. Ash totally should be at least 71+ with the way they are overscoring many skaters. Sotskova is good technically, but otherwise bland and boring. Ashley should be way ahead of Sotskova and closer to Pogo.

Karen skated well. I hope her confidence holds up in the fp. Mariah would have placed higher had she skated clean.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

Terrific skate by Karen! She had me worried there for a bit but she's proved all of the doubters (including myself!) wrong so far! Ashley did very well too but I thought she didn't have her usual spark in the SP. Mariah almost gave me a heart attack when she fumbled her triple toe on the combo but she recovered well! Very good job overall by the U.S. ladies! If they all bring it in the FS surely the U.S. will have 3 spots for the Olympics next year!

 

[mag]

I think one of Ashley's biggest problems is still speed. She just doesn't skate fast enough and what speed she does get comes from crossovers with questionable technique. Her jumps also don't have the speed in, height, or flow out some other have. Pogo, Osmond, and Daleman are all really fast with good basics. I haven't seen Karen Chen live, but she appears to be fast as well.

I think it would serve Ashley well to spend a month this spring with a really harsh ice dance coach who can get her using her blades more efficiently and getting her into the ice more.

ETA: skating after Daleman would have really brought home to the judges Ashley's weaknesses.

 

[DimaToe]

Wagner was robbed of a place in the last skating group, although the score itself I don't have much of an issue with. It's still really close, but because of being in the second to last group I can see her killing it in the LP to end up like 4th or 5th.

I'm glad Chen skated another good SP, shows nationals wasn't a fluke after all. She's positioned herself well for a top 10 finish and I hope the momentum continues into the LP.

Bell skated about as well as I expected, of course Wagner 2.0 would have a flub in the SP. I expect her to kill it in the LP now

Very pleased with how our ladies handled the first half of the competition.

 

[mag]

For those who didn't stay up/ get up to watch the SP live, watch Daleman and then Wagner. All will be clear with the scores. The first combo for each of them really says it all.

 

[aftershocks]

I think one of Ashley's biggest problems is still speed. She just doesn't skate fast enough and what speed she does get comes from crossovers with questionable technique. Her jumps also don't have the speed in, height, or flow out some other have. Pogo, Osmond, and Daleman are all really fast with good basics. I haven't seen Karen Chen live, but she appears to be fast as well.

I think it would serve Ashley well to spend a month this spring with a really harsh ice dance coach who can get her using her blades more efficiently and getting her into the ice more.

ETA: skating after Daleman would have really brought home to the judges Ashley's weaknesses.

You make good points, but I don't see that skating after Daleman significantly changes the way judges already view Ashley. Ms. Ash is a role model for pulling herself up by her bootstraps. She's already accomplished more than she, her talent, and everybody's expectations of her have dictated. A lot of it has been her not being fully supported. But yeah she does have some weaknesses that are apparent. Even Ash herself doesn't hem and haw about her strengths and weaknesses. That's what most of her fans really like about Ash: her honesty, straightforwardness and chutzpah. Boy, if she had the humongous talent to go along with her character, determination and love of the spotlight!

But level of talent, notwithstanding, Ash is a gamer. I'll never count her out. The problem is that her fed and ISU judges seemingly do. Ash definitely should not have been shorted to be behind Maria Sotskova by percentage points.

I'm really happy for Gabby Daleman, and I hope she continues to grow and to smooth out her rough edges because I really have grown to love watching her skating with her powerful jumps and glorious attack. She still has things to work on re presentation. Kaetlyn is quite talented but she's lacked consistency. So we'll see what transpires in the fp. Meanwhile, kudos to Canadian ladies!!! Who woulda thunk 3 spots for Canadian ladies with likely only 2 for Japan (but that's because of Satoko being out with injury, and Mai's troubles in the sp).

It's looking more and more like Canada is gunning for Olympic team gold. Canucks got a lot to cheer about, except for Duhamel/Radford's woes. Sorry for Eric's injury.

 

[mag]

@aftershocks Watch Gabby and then Ashley. The difference is striking. Heck, just watch the first combo. Skating skills and speed are a learned skill, not really a talent. If Ashley want to be a contender next year, she need to up her game in both.

 

[VGThuy]

This is where Raf's statement of wishing both Adam and Ashley had better "education" early on rings true. Obviously, he meant better skating education early on. Ashley's skating is being passed over by others who simply have better skating skills by some way and don't have the same learned bad habits that limit one's scores on the elements.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

OK, all y'all I stayed away from FSU all day today so i could watch all the action without knowing any spoilers!! Holy Crap..

Arent y'all glad usfsa doesnt listen to us and bump Karen off Worlds after 4CC.. GORG, Karen.. I was jumping on my bed....... THAT WAS AMAZING..

ASH just missed final flight as she did at Olys...

BUT.. we ARE IN GOOD shape SO far for 3 spots..

I know Mariah is not a SP skater and I know she'll pull up but I know our Mirai would have been around 68-70 for sure.

NOT sure why Ash wanted to skip 4CC as I said before..... Most of the people who went to 4 CC pulled up here (dont get me stared on D&F tho)

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks Watch Gabby and then Ashley. The difference is striking. Heck, just watch the first combo. Skating skills and speed are a learned skill, not really a talent. If Ashley want to be a contender next year, she need to up her game in both.

I get that you love Gabby Daleman. Her skating is tremendous and powerful with a great deal of speed and attack. Like I said, I have come to love her skating. I feel that Gabby should have won Canadians over Osmond this year.

If you will recheck my previous post, you will notice that I am not dissing Gabby's marks vs Ashley. I'm not even sure why you are referencing these two in particular for direct comparisons. I said that I feel Ashley deserved to be well over Maria Sotskova and closer to Pogorilaya in scoring/ placement. That has nothing to do with Gabby's talent vs Ashley's.

You can like Gabby's talent all you want. That's no reason to go OTT picking Ashley Wagner apart. Speed is not the only thing that is assessed in skating. Carolina had blinding speed back in the day, but she also had trouble with consistency and controlling her jumps. Karen Chen and Courtney Hicks have tremendous speed which often causes them problems in maintaining control on the second jump in their 3/3 jumping passes.

I'm not even disagreeing with you about Ashley's areas of weakness. (Sigh)

 

[mag]

@aftershocks The point I was making was that because Ashley skated immediately after Gabby the difference is skating skills, jumping skill, and speed was readily apparent to the judges. Even those who may have been willing to overlook some of Ashley's shortcomings had them thrown up front and centre. I am not "going OTT picking Ashley Wagner apart," I am simply making the point that skate order may have made it more difficult for judges who may be inclined towards Ashley to see what wanted to see versus what she actually puts out there.

I will remind you that you started your previous post stating that you didn't think skating after Gabby would "significantly change the way the judges already view Ashley." My response was to point you in the direction of information you may not have considered that might change your mind on that statement.

 

[aftershocks]

Being in the arena is better than watching online. And still, IMHO, the judges know Ashley well. They would not be surprised re the difference in skating skills and speed. The two skaters are quite different and their programs are different. In addition, I think it's the nature of showy program Ashley selected that may not be working as well for her this season. It starts out with a lot of posing and such. It doesn't lend itself to going for a lot of speed. So the upshot or the downside for Ash is that this program is maybe more suited to being an exhibition. Her last year's sp showed her off to better advantage.

Whether or not the judges were gobsmacked by Gabby's amazing power and huge jumps and then underwhelmed in comparison by Ashley's skating is neither here or there. It's very possible, but it's not certain and it doesn't matter. I think Gabby and Kaetlyn had way more buzz coming into Helsinki after 4CCs, than did Ash since she skipped 4CCs and was rated second at U.S. Nationals (added to not having a good showing at Cup of China).

In any case, it's not like Ash has a dreadful score. I think she could have received a couple of points higher, and that she definitely should be ahead of Maria Sotskova.

 

[Cachoo]

I am pleased with the competition today. Skate cleanly and maybe you can make the top ten....I love mostly splat-free competitions. This was a fan's contest and it is good to see so many with a chance to medal. I was disappointed for Japan though. I did not realize they were not injury free.

 

[mag]

I hope there is a stricter caller for the free. I know some don't like it when landed jumps are called < or <<, but there were some jumps today *cough Karen Chen *cough Ashley Wagner, which were clearly < in real time. I haven't watched everyone so there were probably more. It just seems really unfair to skaters who actually fully rotate the jumps when others get away with under rotations.

 

[Allskate]

Skating skills and speed are a learned skill, not really a talent. If Ashley want to be a contender next year, she need to up her game in both.

You do realize that Ashley got a higher skating skills score and a higher PCS than Gabby, right?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that Raf knows what Ashley has been working on and what she still needs to work on and what will work best for her. Better than we do.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I hope there is a stricter caller for the free. I know some don't like it when landed jumps are called < or <<, but there were some jumps today *cough Karen Chen *cough Ashley Wagner, which were clearly < in real time. I haven't watched everyone so there were probably more. It just seems really unfair to skaters who actually fully rotate the jumps when others get away with under rotations.

I see what you mean about Karen I watched the jumping combo about 6 times now..but in the end I think it was right at the 1/4 mark and benefit given to her.

As far as Ash I dont have any closeups of her blade I can watch.

 

[vesperholly]

I hope there is a stricter caller for the free.

Same caller for SP and FS, Vanessa Gusmeroli.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

who was the caller at COC when they handed Ash a basket gift full of < and <<... a chinese caller? I cant remember...

 

[Jarrett]

I see what you mean about Karen I watched the jumping combo about 6 times now..but in the end I think it was right at the 1/4 mark and benefit given to her.

As far as Ash I dont have any closeups of her blade I can watch.

I agree.

Also I don't really think of the close calls got away with anything as mag claims because I think those jump short of rotation (but not enough to be called short) were taken into consideration on the GOE, especially in Ashley's case.