ISU confirms more positive doping tests

[VGThuy]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20116348

In a study abstract I found the elimination half life is approximately 5 to 6 hours after a single dose and 15 hours after multidose.

A drug is considered completely eliminated after 5 half-lives (ie, 3% left of the peak concentration after an injection). So there's no way meldonium can stay in the body for more than 3 to 4 days.

If this is true, then I can't wait to see what defense they'll come up with next.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

I think somebody posted about WADA have scientists working on the cases and not just Administrators. However, WADA does not publish its data, it is not peer-reviewed and most importantly no one can check the validity of their claim since they don't publish the data. They will have do start the research from scratch to prove WADA is wrong.

It is more or less an authoritarian regime.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20116348

In a study abstract I found the elimination half life is approximately 5 to 6 hours after a single dose and 15 hours after multidose.

A drug is considered completely eliminated after 5 half-lives (ie, 3% left of the peak concentration after an injection). So there's no way meldonium can stay in the body for more than 3 to 4 days.

Is there any study on the effect prolonged usage and how long the meldnoium stays in the system. Secondly, is they any study on the effect of excessive physical activity has the effect on the retention of the drug. I would also love to know whether genders have different retention of the drug in the system.

WADA definitely needs to explain when it moves drugs back and forth into banned to legal status, especially how the body retains these drug and how long the drug stays in athletes body. At the moment, they definitely do not give much information. I hope someone will sue WADA on this and make sure they release scientific data that shows a certain drug is PED.

 

[Vash01]

Why do athletes take vitamins, anyway? It may enhance their performance and therefore put the ones who don't take them at disadvantage. Why do they consume glucose-containing drinks and food? It's a source of energy and as such, should be prohibited. How dare they drink water? Do they stop to even think how unfair it is to people who live in countries with limited access to drinkable water?
And while we are at it, why L-carnitine is not on the list of banned substances when it belongs to the same biological pathway as meldonium and has identical effects?

May be L-Cartinine is being used in the West rather than in Eastern Europe?

 

[Vash01]

I think somebody posted about WADA have scientists working on the cases and not just Administrators. However, WADA does not publish its data, it is not peer-reviewed and most importantly no one can check the validity of their claim since they don't publish the data. They will have do start the research from scratch to prove WADA is wrong.

It is more or less an authoritarian regime.



Is there any study on the effect prolonged usage and how long the meldnoium stays in the system. Secondly, is they any study on the effect of excessive physical activity has the effect on the retention of the drug. I would also love to know whether genders have different retention of the drug in the system.

WADA definitely needs to explain when it moves drugs back and forth into banned to legal status, especially how the body retains these drug and how long the drug stays in athletes body. At the moment, they definitely do not give much information. I hope someone will sue WADA on this and make sure they release scientific data that shows a certain drug is PED.

I hate authoritarian regimes. They need to publish their data and reasons when they ban certain substances. Their research needs to be reviewed by their peers and not taken as gospel. They are playing with athletes' careers. This is not to say every athlete is honest and doesn't use PED, but they need to be separated from those who are using what is not PED.

This particular ban almost seems like done just in time for the 2016 Olympics, targeting a certain part of the world. They need to come up with full explanation with data, and be open to be questioned about the validity of their data and their decisions.

I hope this goes to court. It's the only way truth can come out. If the truth justifies the ban, and the way it was done (3 months warning), I have no problem with it.

 

[barbarafan]

Bobrova said she learned in September, which is when she says she stopped knowingly taking it. I think September is also when the Russian doping org sent the notice to athletes. Maybe Tukt needs to check her spam filters.

While any athlete competing at a level subject to testing has primary responsibility for keeping up with the rules and following them, I also agree that the national federations and anyone coaching athletes competing at this level ought to make a point to make sure their athletes know about these rules and any recent changes. I mean, even if they know RUSADA already sent out a notice, it would surely do no harm if the athlete also got a notice from the federation and also heard about it from their coaches, particularly when it involved a product used as routinely as Vitamin C (according to Plushenko).

One of the things that saddens me in this thread is the realization that Russian press is still manipulated to feed people only the stories (or portions thereof) they want people to know and to put their own self-serving twist on them, regardless how ridiculous they sound to everyone else. Even sadder, is the number of people who seem to have swallowed this nonsense hook, line and sinker. Ah, yes, it is all a grand conspiracy by Western-controlled WADA. They fact that all these athletes continued to use a prohibited substance after it was banned and are now getting caught somehow doesn't matter and should be excused because this drug wasn't widely used in most of the rest of the world? All illegal drugs and techniques begin somewhere. If WADA thinks a product should be banned, it makes no sense to wait a few years until it is used by more countries before they ban it. And if, as some are now pretending, this product doesn't really do much good, then why were so many athletes taking it in the first place and why did they continue to take it even after it was added to the prohibited list?

Agreed. Wada found too many athletes were using it? Well they wouldn't be if it was not making a noticable change in their performance.

If you try something and you feel it is not making a difference you stop it. If you are not sure it is making a big difference and think maybe it was other factors perhaps then you stop it for a week to see. If during that week you have trouble doing as many run throughs as you were doing and feeling completely done after practice then you think hey it really is making a difference and you start taking it again.

So therefore if a great number of athletes have starting taking it (and they do not have heart problems) and they keep taking it then yes..it is an indication that it is doing wonderful things.

A person is either good or bad...A cheater or straight...It has nothing to do with what nationality you are...There is good and bad everywhere in the world..I am Canadian and I do think we have a very high percent of good people there but we also have a lot of crap...if a Canadian is the kind of person who is looking for the easy way and they feel they can justify in their mind anything that works ..they do it. Lying backstabbing ..you name it.
And if that person is also a great athlete and someone offers them something that makes their dreams real and they feel they will not be caught then there you have it... That being said they would have to keep it very quiet because it is in no way openly condoned and if they were caught their supporters (for the most part would turn against them). It would be...A great athlete but they totally blew it. If you won by cheating you didn't win.

So in a country where a lot of people are doing it and people in authority are helping and turning a blind eye and even brainwashing that they have a right to do it it is easy to imagine athletes following the flock...I was raised by parents with a great deal of integrity and they definitely drilled it into us so I do not feel that I could fairly put myself in other's place and say what I would or wouldn't do but when they have been clearly notified that it is now forbidden and that they will be caught and lose everything why the hell would they take the chance? Unless..maybe it was passed around that if you also took such and such a thing it would not be detected??? What happens at these rinks?...Do the coaches and trainers tell the skaters to shut up and skate and they will look after everything else. For instance how and where does Bobrova get her drugs...Both before and after the ban.

Is it case of bend over and take the shot ..we know what we are doing or are the athletes very actively participating in everything that is happening?
Is there someone around who has been told it would not be detected and maybe was giving it long after the ban was it place? I have a lot of questions like that. I would like to know more about the hows and whys.

 

[Jun Y]

Why do athletes take vitamins, anyway? It may enhance their performance and therefore put the ones who don't take them at disadvantage. Why do they consume glucose-containing drinks and food? It's a source of energy and as such, should be prohibited. How dare they drink water? Do they stop to even think how unfair it is to people who live in countries with limited access to drinkable water?
And while we are at it, why L-carnitine is not on the list of banned substances when it belongs to the same biological pathway as meldonium and has identical effects?

Could you kindly provide the reference for the statement that L-carnitine and mildronate have identical effect? I did a quick Google and found nothing on this. Rather, mildronate pharmacologically inhibits cellular transportation of endogenous l-carnitine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24333219

In another study, the administration of l-carnitine decreases the effectiveness of mildronate.

http://m.cpt.sagepub.com/content/17/2/215.abstract

Perhaps there is research demonstrating that l-carnitine and mildronate intake have the same effect, but I have not found any.

The publicly known pharmacology of any give substance is a search or two away. It's all out there.

Can the half life of mildronate vary from an average of 5 to 15 hours to 18 days (ie, 3-month residual)? Maybe in a different species.

It is true that l-carnitine is suspected of enhancing performance, most notably by the renowned running coach Alberto Salazar. Specific physiological enhancement remains unclear. Nevertheless I have not found studies equating it to mildronate.

The funny thing about PEDs is that there is no national or regional difference in the wish to use them among elite athletes. If it's something very effective, like anabolic steroids or EPO, you bet everyone wants to use them. Small fries with questionable effects, like mildronate, are probably limited to certain regions because of cost or access. Every country has had doping scandals. Nobody is "pure."

 

[MacMadame]

A person is either good or bad...A cheater or straight...

 

[Vash01]

Agreed. Wada found too many athletes were using it? Well they wouldn't be if it was not making a noticable change in their performance.

If you try something and you feel it is not making a difference you stop it. If you are not sure it is making a big difference and think maybe it was other factors perhaps then you stop it for a week to see. If during that week you have trouble doing as many run throughs as you were doing and feeling completely done after practice then you think hey it really is making a difference and you start taking it again.

So therefore if a great number of athletes have starting taking it (and they do not have heart problems) and they keep taking it then yes..it is an indication that it is doing wonderful things.

A person is either good or bad...A cheater or straight...It has nothing to do with what nationality you are...There is good and bad everywhere in the world..I am Canadian and I do think we have a very high percent of good people there but we also have a lot of crap...if a Canadian is the kind of person who is looking for the easy way and they feel they can justify in their mind anything that works ..they do it. Lying backstabbing ..you name it.
And if that person is also a great athlete and someone offers them something that makes their dreams real and they feel they will not be caught then there you have it... That being said they would have to keep it very quiet because it is in no way openly condoned and if they were caught their supporters (for the most part would turn against them). It would be...A great athlete but they totally blew it. If you won by cheating you didn't win.

So in a country where a lot of people are doing it and people in authority are helping and turning a blind eye and even brainwashing that they have a right to do it it is easy to imagine athletes following the flock...I was raised by parents with a great deal of integrity and they definitely drilled it into us so I do not feel that I could fairly put myself in other's place and say what I would or wouldn't do but when they have been clearly notified that it is now forbidden and that they will be caught and lose everything why the hell would they take the chance? Unless..maybe it was passed around that if you also took such and such a thing it would not be detected??? What happens at these rinks?...Do the coaches and trainers tell the skaters to shut up and skate and they will look after everything else. For instance how and where does Bobrova get her drugs...Both before and after the ban.

Is it case of bend over and take the shot ..we know what we are doing or are the athletes very actively participating in everything that is happening?
Is there someone around who has been told it would not be detected and maybe was giving it long after the ban was it place? I have a lot of questions like that. I would like to know more about the hows and whys.

Your last sentence is the only one that makes sense. Why not get all the information before making a judgment?

 

[ballettmaus]

A person is either good or bad...A cheater or straight...

Do you think that black and white are the only existing colors, too?

 

[Tinami Amori]

A person is either good or bad...A cheater or straight...

an old Russian joke:
- A stranger asks a pretty girl: young lady, will you spend the night with me for 10 million rubles?"
- Young lady: yes
- Stranger: and how about for 10 rubles?
- Young lady: don't insult me! who do you think i am!!??
- Stranger: from your first answer we already know "who you are", and now we are negotiating.

 

[AxelAnnie]

Do you think that black and white are the only existing colors, too?

Yes. Where morals are concerned. And truth. And good and bad and right and wrong.

 

[hanca]

Yes. Where morals are concerned. And truth. I am and good and bad.

And you are the good one I guess? Which means that you believe you have never done something that you wish you wouldn't have done, or something for what you later felt embarrassed...

 

[LarrySK8]

10 pages of nonsense, mainly from posters who LUUUUUUUURVE the Russian skaters, those who want to pseudo-intellectualize this matter, nonsense discussions of science without knowledge of sciene and those who want so much to be polite.

The Russians have fostered a culture of cheating in sports. For years, currently and they will in the future. So now it shows up in F S. AGAIN. They got banned in Track, ban the skaters too. Ban the whole nation from all sports until they agree to stop cheating.

There is so much to read about this away from FSU and figure skating news. This country cheats, has always cheated and will cheat in the future in all sports.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

This thread is a mess

 

[hanca]

10 pages of nonsense, mainly from posters who LUUUUUUUURVE the Russian skaters, those who want to pseudo-intellectualize this matter, nonsense discussions of science without knowledge of sciene and those who want so much to be polite.

The Russians have fostered a culture of cheating in sports. For years, currently and they will in the future. So now it shows up in F S. AGAIN. They got banned in Track, ban the skaters too. Ban the whole nation from all sports until they agree to stop cheating.

There is so much to read about this away from FSU and figure skating news. This country cheats, has always cheated and will cheat in the future in all sports.

Your post actually says a lot about you. I don't think the posts here are from posters who luuuurve Russian skaters. I think the posts are from posters who are trying to be objective. Personally I struggle to believe that 90 athletes suddenly made a mistake, or were trying to cheat hoping that they won't be discovered. I would understand te odd one or two, but not this number. I think there is more in it than it seems and I think it should be investigated properly before the athletes are dragged through mud and their career is destroyed. Maybe you should think whether you would feel the same it those were athletes from your country?

 

[rhapsody]

This thread is a mess

I have to say that I'm loving it!

 

[Lovespairs272]

May be L-Cartinine is being used in the West rather than in Eastern Europe?

Maybe it is just because L-Carnitine is produced naturally by the body and can be found in a Ton of food people eat daily? Like red meat, asparagus, eggs.... I wish people would stop feeling bad for cheaters.

 

[AxelAnnie]

And you are the good one I guess? Which means that you believe you have never done something that you wish you wouldn't have done, or something for what you later felt embarrassed...

Damn auto correct. . I meant I do not I am. . I do believe there is right and wrong and that evil exists in the world. . People choose one or the other with every action. . That can of to a you found in the shopping. You know the o e you forgot to put on the conveyor to be price scanned. . Do you walk back in the store and pay or do you throw it in the bag with an OH Well?
Someone or some people decided they could get away with the PED. . Cheating to win.... Never a good thing. . And I bet there are skaters and coaches out there you couldn't pay enough to cheat or to throw a competition. . It is than right and wrong.... good and bad thing.

 

[Antika]

Ban the whole nation from all sports until they agree to stop cheating.

Americans have a longer list of sportspeople in doping cases.

 

[Ananas Astra]

10 pages of nonsense, mainly from posters who LUUUUUUUURVE the Russian skaters, those who want to pseudo-intellectualize this matter, nonsense discussions of science without knowledge of sciene and those who want so much to be polite.

The Russians have fostered a culture of cheating in sports. For years, currently and they will in the future. So now it shows up in F S. AGAIN. They got banned in Track, ban the skaters too. Ban the whole nation from all sports until they agree to stop cheating.

There is so much to read about this away from FSU and figure skating news. This country cheats, has always cheated and will cheat in the future in all sports.

Did some Russian person kill your hamster or something?
You sound very butthurt to be honest.

 

[Lys]

10 pages of nonsense, mainly from posters who LUUUUUUUURVE the Russian skaters, those who want to pseudo-intellectualize this matter, nonsense discussions of science without knowledge of sciene and those who want so much to be polite.

The Russians have fostered a culture of cheating in sports. For years, currently and they will in the future. So now it shows up in F S. AGAIN. They got banned in Track, ban the skaters too. Ban the whole nation from all sports until they agree to stop cheating.

There is so much to read about this away from FSU and figure skating news. This country cheats, has always cheated and will cheat in the future in all sports.

I think your comment is inappropriate and unfair
It is from Wikipedia, Category: sportspeople in doping cases by nationality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Sportspeople_in_doping_cases_by_nationality
There are 224 American sportspeople in doping cases, 147 Russian (9 Soviet) but I don't think US is a nation with a lot of moral hazard
Doping is nothing new in sports worldwide
There is no reason for us to have biased views against any specific nations on this issue

 

[bardtoob]

To be clear, since I took such a strong position in the beginning of the thread, those that took the drug before January 1st 2016 were allowed. If they took it on or after, they were at fault.

Whether or not it cleared from the athlete's body before January 1st 2016 is another question.

 

[Sylvia]

Wave of Positive Tests for Meldonium Adds to Doping Crisis by Christopher Clarey:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/14/s...ests-for-meldonium-adds-to-doping-crisis.html
Excerpts:

Though the banning of meldonium has quickly generated results, its administrative pathway to the WADA list was not an accelerated process.
“It was done in a very scientific way with all the information from papers and so forth received and considered,” Mr. Howman said. “It followed the normal process.”
That process, according to Mr. Howman, began in earnest in early 2014. It also apparently got a push from a tip received by Usada in March 2014 from a person whose identity has remained confidential, claiming that athletes from Eastern Europe were using meldonium to enhance their performance. That tip was reported first by USA Today and was confirmed on Saturday by an American antidoping official who requested anonymity.

Russian athletes in some sports apparently received notification more expeditiously than others. Sergey Shubenkov, the reigning world champion in the 110-meter hurdles, said he received word through official channels. But Elizaveta Tuktamysheva, the 2015 world champion in women’s figure skating, told a Russian website that she had been taking meldonium before the ban but stopped, only because she found out about the change “from my friends who are skaters.”

From the end of the article:
"What seems evident is that with the high volume of meldonium cases now pending, there could be legal challenges as to whether the drug should have been banned by WADA in the first place."

 

[Aerobicidal]

Damn auto correct. . I meant I do not I am. . I do believe there is right and wrong and that evil exists in the world. . People choose one or the other with every action. . That can of to a you found in the shopping. You know the o e you forgot to put on the conveyor to be price scanned. . Do you walk back in the store and pay or do you throw it in the bag with an OH Well?
Someone or some people decided they could get away with the PED. . Cheating to win.... Never a good thing. . And I bet there are skaters and coaches out there you couldn't pay enough to cheat or to throw a competition. . It is than right and wrong.... good and bad thing.

This is objectively and inarguably profound.

 

[MsZem]

I finally realized what WADA's logic in banning a substance because athletes thought it was performance enhancing reminds me of...

https://youtu.be/QQXVDbqJ49o?t=41

Aerobicidal, your avatar/user title combo remains a work of art.

 

[Loves_Shizuka]

Aerobicidal, your avatar/user title combo remains a work of art.

I repeat that it is a disgrace and in disgustingly poor taste, and I am so very, very sorry that I didn't think of it first.

 

[Rock2]

So now WADA is some authoritarian regime. Sigh.

I'm more than open to questioning WADA's structure, processes, transparency.
Probably lots of room for improvement in a doping world that's probably littered with shade via multiple parties on all sides of the situation.

Would have been much more into it if authorities and athletes were vocal with their big picture concerns before they got hauled onto the carpet for violations.

So I'm hoping those with noble intentions about the improvement of WADA have a forward looking perspective, having taken ownership for their violations vs being backward looking, with an agenda to cover up or call into question their mess ups.

PS, great debate. good times

PPS, how much longer before sample B results published? Needs to be soon if we're going to lose more world's competitors and replacements need to be ID'ed

 

[Lacey]

PPS, how much longer before sample B results published? Needs to be soon if we're going to lose more world's competitors and replacements need to be ID'ed

I agree, tickets need to be bought, are Visas required, how late are substitutions permitted, etc.

 

[Enchanted]

I assume it takes about two weeks to analyse the B samples.

 

[Sylvia]

The ISU's March 9th statement:

The media currently report widely on a number of other anti-doping cases in several sports. The ISU confirms that there exist other A-Sample Adverse Analytical Findings for certain skaters. However, the concerned individuals have requested the analysis of their B-Samples. Therefore the ISU will undertake public disclosure of those cases only if the respective B-Samples should be confirmed positive.

Note that "certain skaters" could mean speed skaters.