Would Gritschuk & Platov still have beaten Usova & Zhulin for 94 Olympic Gold if Torvill & Dean didnt return

[savchenkoboss]

I did manage to find their starlight waltz. And yes, it wasn't very good! Have you seen their golden waltz or argentine tango from Nagano? Both dances were riddled with errors. I'm kind of curious now to see their blues!

I did however like B&K's Rhumba OD. Again, this was a surprise for me because B&K's OD usually suck. But their rhumba was excellent. In Lillehammer, I might've placed B&K 5th in the OD behind T&D, U&Z, R&K, and G&P.

I saw their CDs in Nagano yes. Their Golden Waltz was a hot mess where they screwed up the most important step in every round of it. Their Argentine Tango was better, still some flaws, but actually given the other teams probably a bit undermarked to be 4th with some 5th place votes, they were one of the only teams to do the crossrolls on proper edges, and they kept much closer than K&O or even A&P in that dance; while their GW should have been much lower than 5th probably. Their Rumba in Lillehammer was great, it really captured the subtlety you want in that dance well. It was very impressive to see that from such a new young team, they had me more excited about them in their youth than I was as they got older.

Moniotte & Lavanchy had just a horrendous OD but a great FD which was probably their best ever this year and they skated it very well at the Games. Yet their awful non Rumba, Rumba OD was placed 5th, and their FD 5th behind Rahkammo & Kokko who had a bad fall. Again ice dance judging back then. I dont think their Rumba was even a Rumba but more like a Mumba.

 

[gk_891]

They were so innovative and refreshing at first. They honestly got more stale and far less enjoyable as time went on.

Part of it was the overhype from the Canadian media. By 1996, I had gotten sick of them. They had also switched coaches to Dubova at around that time and Dubova's coaching had become very disappointing by then. It didn't help that she had become a very bitter, jaded, and senile person. It probably had something to do with watching K&P and G&P leave her and become Olympic champions without her. She had also lost the uber-talented Navka as a student by then as well. I think Dubova's jaded attitude probably rubbed off onto B&K because they seemed to think they were on par with teams like G&P when they weren't anywhere close.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Part of it was the overhype from the Canadian media. By 1996, I had gotten sick of them. They had also switched coaches to Dubova at around that time and Dubova's coaching had become very disappointing by then. It didn't help that she had become a very bitter, jaded, and senile person. It probably had something to do with watching K&P and G&P leave her and become Olympic champions without her. She had also lost the uber-talented Navka as a student by then as well. I think Dubova's jaded attitude probably rubbed off onto B&K because they seemed to think they were on par with teams like G&P when they weren't anywhere close.

Yeah Dubova had become an embarassment by then. Everything was a conspiracy theory, she taught all her pupils to be jaded and diss judges and officials which is a huge no no even when you have legit gripes, and she forgot how to teach basic techniques well or even come up with packaging that worked for her skaters. It is a shame, as she had been an excellent coach for years. One of the last times I ever saw her was coaching Chait & Shaknovsky to their embarassing bronze at the 2002 worlds, and as something like a 4th assistant coach to Anissina & Peizerat (who she had dissed and dumped on during the 98 season) at the SLC Games.

 

[gk_891]

I saw their CDs in Nagano yes. Their Golden Waltz was a hot mess where they screwed up the most important step in every round of it. Their Argentine Tango was better, still some flaws, but actually given the other teams probably a bit undermarked to be 4th with some 5th place votes, they were one of the only teams to do the crossrolls on proper edges, and they kept much closer than K&O or even A&P in that dance; while their GW should have been much lower than 5th probably. Their Rumba in Lillehammer was great, it really captured the subtlety you want in that dance well. It was very impressive to see that from such a new young team, they had me more excited about them in their youth than I was as they got older.

Moniotte & Lavanchy had just a horrendous OD but a great FD which was probably their best ever this year and they skated it very well at the Games. Yet their awful non Rumba, Rumba OD was placed 5th, and their FD 5th behind Rahkammo & Kokko who had a bad fall. Again ice dance judging back then. I dont think their Rumba was even a Rumba but more like a Mumba.

When I first saw B&K's Argentine Tango, I really liked it because they carved out very nice patterns with their edges. And like you said, their back crossrolls were very strong. But looking at it more closely I saw some issues. He keeps his free foot on the ice for way too long before his counter. And her twizzle was skated on 2 feet rather than the required 1 foot. And her LFO edge before her faux twizzle went completely flat. I still prefer watching it to Krylova & Ovsiannikov's though who skated very far apart and her back crossrolls were on the wrong edges.

 

[gk_891]

Yeah Dubova had become an embarassment by then. Everything was a conspiracy theory, she taught all her pupils to be jaded and diss judges and officials which is a huge no no even when you have legit gripes, and she forgot how to teach basic techniques well or even come up with packaging that worked for her skaters. It is a shame, as she had been an excellent coach for years. One of the last times I ever saw her was coaching Chait & Shaknovsky to their embarassing bronze at the 2002 worlds, and as something like a 4th assistant coach to Anissina & Peizerat (who she had dissed and dumped on during the 98 season) at the SLC Games.

Yeah, Dubova had not only become senile by that time but she was out of ideas as well. First hint of that was in 1994 when she gave U&Z that Nino Rota FD that was very ill-suited to them. If they had done a steamy tango or something Latin-y, it could've worked for them. The problem with that idea was that Dubova had given a Tango FD to Navka & Gezalian a year earlier in 1993. In 1994, Dubova's Kazakhstan team (Stekolnikova & Kazarlyga) did a free dance to Hungarian Rhapsody, not unlike Klimova & Ponomarenko did in 1987.

I did like Navka & Gezalian's FD in 1994 but in 1995, they were skating that exact same free dance again!!! But part of that may have been because Dubova found out about Navka & Zhulin's affair after the 1994 Worlds and so she sent N&G away to train on their own in Moscow.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Yeah, Dubova had not only become senile by that time but she was out of ideas as well. First hint of that was in 1994 when she gave U&Z that Nino Rota FD that was very ill-suited to them. If they had done a steamy tango or something Latin-y, it could've worked for them. The problem with that idea was that Dubova had given a Tango FD to Navka & Gezalian a year earlier in 1993. In 1994, Dubova's Kazakhstan team (Stekolnikova & Kazarlyga) did a free dance to Hungarian Rhapsody, not unlike Klimova & Ponomarenko did in 1987.

I did like Navka & Gezalian's FD in 1994 but in 1995, they were skating that exact same free dance again!!! But part of that may have been because Dubova found out about Navka & Zhulin's affair after the 1994 Worlds and so she sent N&G away to train on their own in Moscow.

Rather than sending all the females who sleep with Zhulin away she should have just tied him up and along with Maya performed a Lorena Bobbit on him. There problem solved, everyone happy (well maybe not Zhulin).

Yeah though Dubova had been a top coach for so many years, and unlike Tarasova who was very selective who she took on over the years, she always coached so many teams at a time. So no wonder she was running out of original ideas for her teams.

 

[gk_891]

Rather than sending all the females who sleep with Zhulin away she should have just tied him up and along with Maya performed a Lorena Bobbit on him. There problem solved, everyone happy (well maybe not Zhulin).

Yeah though Dubova had been a top coach for so many years, and unlike Tarasova who was very selective who she took on over the years, she always coached so many teams at a time. So no wonder she was running out of original ideas for her teams.

Linichuk & Karponosov also had that problem. Throughout the 90s and early 2000s, they were coaching so many teams and they eventually ran out of ideas (not that they had a lot of great ideas to begin with though).

I will admit though that L&K did a better job with Denkova & Staviski than I thought they would've. When I heard that they were leaving their coach back in 2005 for L&K, I groaned and wondered why they were going to them of all people. But I have to admit that the results were pleasantly surprising. The one thing I didn't like was that L&K amped up D&S' speed and power so much to the point where it was almost out of control at times. Case in the point, their 2006 Olympic OD. They were skating scarily aggressive to the point where I was expecting some sort of disaster. Low and behold, they missed their spin because they went into it way too aggressively!

 

[savchenkoboss]

Linichuk & Karponosov also had that problem. Throughout the 90s and early 2000s, they were coaching so many teams and they eventually ran out of ideas (not that they had a lot of great ideas to begin with though).

I will admit though that L&K did a better job with Denkova & Staviski than I thought they would've. When I heard that they were leaving their coach back in 2005 for L&K, I groaned and wondered why they were going to them of all people. But I have to admit that the results were pleasantly surprising. The one thing I didn't like was that L&K amped up D&S' speed and power so much to the point where it was almost out of control at times. Case in the point, their 2006 Olympic OD. They were skating scarily aggressive to the point where I was expecting some sort of disaster. Low and behold, they missed their spin because they went into it way too aggressively!

I was absolutely crushed Denkova & Stayviski had mistakes in the OD and FD in Turin and didnt medal. Had they skated those programs as well as they did at worlds I am sure they win atleast silver. Those Olympics in dance were horrible with me with both Delobel & Schoenfelder and Denkova & Stayviski not medaling, and Dubreuil & Lauzon's accident. And Grushina & Goncharov medaling .

 

[gk_891]

I was absolutely crushed Denkova & Stayviski had mistakes in the OD and FD in Turin and didnt medal. Had they skated those programs as well as they did at worlds I am sure they win atleast silver. Those Olympics in dance were horrible with me with both Delobel & Schoenfelder and Denkova & Stayviski not medaling, and Dubreuil & Lauzon's accident. And Grushina & Goncharov medaling .

I too was crushed that D&S (both the Bulgarian and French D&S) didn't medal. And I was also horried that G&G did. While I admit that Elena Grushina had some fantastic qualities, they were not a strong team.

 

[VGThuy]

During this era, there was a distinct East-West split in the approach to the CDs. The US and other Western skaters tended to focus on getting the steps very accurate while the Russians put more value on the overall look, things like unison of leg line and presentation qualities. If it helped the dance look better or made the transition from one step to the next look more effortless and clean, they would sometimes compromise on the edge or even timing. At least, that's what we heard from the Western analysts.

I would not be surprised if this were true. One ice dance coach also told me that Russian ice dancers were also known for skating on flat edges but with a ton of expression (to draw attention away from the flat edges).

Renee Roca pretty much said that in this priceless fluff piece:

https://youtu.be/hzFD0JxyF6E?t=65

When asked why did Gorsha had to learn to skate the Western way and not the other way around, Sur says it's because he's in the U.S. now and if they were in Russia...then Roca interrupts and says, "All we would do is skate flats with lots of expression." Ouch.

Regarding Klimova/Ponomarenko, I agree with gk_891. I'm simply in awe of their clinical skills in their earlier years. I think their Bach would be a lot better for me if they decreased the amount of assisted lifts and such and did more real steps.

 

[gk_891]

Renee Roca pretty much said that in this priceless fluff piece:

https://youtu.be/hzFD0JxyF6E?t=65

When asked why did Gorsha had to learn to skate the Western way and not the other way around, Sur says it's because he's in the U.S. now and if they were in Russia...then Roca interrupts and says, "All we would do is skate flats with lots of expression." Ouch.

Regarding Klimova/Ponomarenko, I agree with gk_891. I'm simply in awe of their clinical skills in their earlier years. I think their Bach would be a lot better for me if they decreased the amount of assisted lifts and such and did more real steps.

There were some definite exceptions to that though. Bestemianova & Bukin showed tremendous edges in their compulsories. And some of their OSPs were pretty good although their 1986 Polka OSP was a scary train wreck. I was pleasantly surprised by their 1987 Viennese Waltz OSP. It doesn't compare to K&P's masterpiece which is IMO the greatest OSP of all time but it's still pretty good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWAIbnSs07w

But their free dances never really demonstrate those skating skills at all IMO.

K&P and G&P could also demonstrate some amazing edges in the compulsories, OSPs/ODs, and free dances. But they were times where they could be very off as well like their double choctaws in the Rhumba CD and K&P didn't handle the crossed open choctaw in the Kilian CD very well either. However, both couples did fine (to my eyes anyways) with the closed choctaw in the Blues CD.

But yes, I'm always in awe of K&P's skating from 1985 to 1990. The range of steps, turns, edges, and handholds is truly astonishing. Not to mention their clinical execution. This was especially the case with their OSPs. There was not only their absolutely stunning waltz which was made into the Golden Waltz CD but also their Polka in 1986, Tango in 1988, Chalreston in 1989 and Samba in 1990. I remember watching their Samba live back as a child at the 1990 Worlds and I remember being put off by their costumes and the music. But I remember being transfixed by their skating once they got going.