Worlds 2025 Rhythm Dance: “I Feel Loathe”

[tony]

lol no they didn't

You don’t know anything, you clearly hate Chock and Bates and I knew you would write this before you even left for Boston.

 

[Rukia]

You don’t know anything, you clearly hate Chock and Bates and I knew you would write this before you even left for Boston.

I'm screenshotting this for when cpom are world champs and you are mean to them for various reasons that may or may not be deserved

 

[once_upon]

...

 

[thvu]

And that all the judges or tech specialists have been stopping by for the last three days to get wisdom

Tony has not lied or exaggerated about a single thing. I say this as a first hand witness and participant in these very same conversations.

 

[PRlady]

I think when you are live you get a much clearer view of speed, skill etc Really is lost a bit on the tv.

This. They were faster and more precise than the other three leading teams. CarPon are also better in person, at least today, lots of detail in that RD.

 

[once_upon]

You were going to see things that no one else saw but you I’m not surprised that you didn’t think the score is right. You see things that no judge anywhere anytime has ever seen.

And that all the judges or tech specialists have been stopping by for the last three days to get wisdom

And if you don’t give a shit about what the judges are saying, why are you so busy complaining about them?

We all have our own opinions. I don't have the expertise, and have asked for advice sometimes. I learned the most I have ever known about skating over the last two days from Kristen. And she doesn't talk down to people .

I'm not going to argue G/P vs C/B. I've never been an Uber of C/B, not G/P. I haven't like either of their RD. So I really have no particular bias here (previous years yes, but not this year) this season, my favorite RD's include G/P, Cpom, LaLa

What my non technical eye saw today was a joy in G/P, Cpom, LaLa, and C/B which made them more enjoyable to me. I think it's undeniable when one shows excitement and joy, the scores are going to reflect that.

Judges are human too. When something looks fun, you overlook small things. I don't know tiny small differences.

I personally think, if Worlds were in Canada, you would see Piper and Paul a little more "on".

 

[Rukia]

This. They were faster and more precise than the other three leading teams. CarPon are also better in person, at least today, lots of detail in that RD.

you are so correct and beautiful (also my husband said he met you lol i had to pee so bad)

 

[PRlady]

you are so correct and beautiful (also my husband said he met you lol i had to pee so bad)

Well your husband and kids are cute and now I’m on other side of arena way up, so not tonight!!

ETA: met Tony and thvu for first time in person. They are not bullshitting here.

 

[once_upon]

Tony has not lied or exaggerated about a single thing. I say this as a first hand witness and participant in these very same conversations.

I'm not saying that he hasn't. It is nice when one gets compliments about ones knowledge. I'm sure he is thrilled. I'm not questioning you or Tony on that.

But....it can be tiring when one tells others they know everything.

Again I'm no expert. And each of us have our opinions

 

[thvu]

I'm not saying that he has. It is nice when one gets compliments about ones knowledge. I'm sure he is thrilled.

But....it can be tiring when one tells others they know everything.

Tony does the same thing I do, he’s just not as nice about it (and I don’t think I’m very nice.)

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I don’t have a problem with Chock/Bates getting big GOE on the choreographic elements and lifts, it’s really a problem on the twizzles and steps.

They do skate in hold (and close hold) more than a lot of the top teams at this point. They’ve lost speed over the years, but looked faster to me today compared to last year. Leading in Composition and Presentation? Sure, mostly not worth a drag out fight over. Skating Skills? No.

 

[tony]

I'm not saying that he has. It is nice when one gets compliments about ones knowledge. I'm sure he is thrilled.

But....it can be tiring when one tells others they know everything.

But that’s just it. I gave my opinion and the resident ‘I don’t value opinions unless you actually attend events’ poster went after me immediately exaggerating a ‘hate’ I have for a team, when I don’t ever take issues with skaters- it’s the questionable judging. And the rules we can all read.

Like I said, there are other skaters and an entire nearly two cycles of Russian skating where plenty of people became experts on PCS, pre rotation, edges, and all the like. People have ragged on Lilah Fear since they became a top 10 team. People rag on Jason Brown and his PCS supposedly needing to tank for not having a 3A. Should I go on? I have gone out of my way to quantitatively explain rules breaking them down line by line at times, whether you agree or not is of course on you but I put the effort in. I won’t be doing that at Worlds, though. My opinion is the same as the next person in actual results, if you give it more stress than that then it’s on you.

 

[kwanette]

@kwanette

TY very much!!

 

[skateboy]

Do. We. Have. To. Have. A. Fight. In. Every. Damn. Thread???????

I guess some people can't help themselves.

 

[Smiley0884]

When I was studying to be a judge, what I learned is that there is the rulebook and there is what judges do.

At the lower levels, there is a much bigger matchup between the two. And when there isn't, it's because (a) the experienced judges saw something I didn't, (b) we had different preferences, or (c) one or both of us had biases.

But the higher you go, the more the judges couldn't always explain the discrepancy. Those other situations still apply, though. It isn't always that I was right and they were wrong.

Generally, even now, if I don't understand a result and there is a judge around that I can ask, I will ask. If it's a judge actually on the panel, even better. (In that case, I don't ask them how they scored, only to explain the results to me.) Sometimes I learn things and sometimes I come away thinking it's politics even if they don't explicitly say that.

THIS. My daughter competes for a judged sport (gymnastics), and one of her best friends is a juvenile level skater - we've been to quite a few of her competitions. It's interesting chatting with others that have judged or coached the sport, and seeing how much their opinions vary amongst each other.

It can't be discounted how much bias and reputation can effect the opinions of those who are knowledgeable, just as much as a layperson. I'm pretty neutral on Chock/Bates, and I'm not a fan of the constant harping on them, but I can understand why people are frustrated with their scores. It detracts from the "sport" aspect. When it came time for my daughter to make a choice between pursing skating or gymnastics, I won't deny that how each sport is judged helped sway my opinion, even if we did let her choose in the end. Not that gymnastics judging is perfect by any stretch - but you can really see at the lower levels, the difference between the two sports when it comes to judging.

Judging that isn't in line with criteria, gives the public the perception that it is corrupt, effect ratings, sponsorships, and credibility.

I mostly lurk, but I'm definitely jealous of everyone meeting up and getting to see the event in person! I live 30 mins from the garden, and I'm stuck at home recovering from covid

 

[Rukia]

When we went to get food after the rd my husband told me "I honestly don't understand what i just watched and why any of that last group should be higher than the ones before them" and i had to tell him how right he was tbh cpom should be in 1st (but then he asked me which ones they are so idk we may not last)

 

[MsZem]

If we're going back to the 6.0 era and the levels, GOE and PCS are basically ordinals, can I please have CDs back too?

 

[just tuned in]

I'm not saying that he hasn't. It is nice when one gets compliments about ones knowledge. I'm sure he is thrilled. I'm not questioning you or Tony on that.

But....it can be tiring when one tells others they know everything.

Again I'm no expert. And each of us have our opinions

Boo. Let @tony speak!

 

[her grace]

Judging that isn't in line with criteria, gives the public the perception that it is corrupt, effect ratings, sponsorships, and credibility.

I think an additional problem for skating is that it isn't just whether the judging is in line with the criteria, but also that a lot of what the criteria rewards is specialized and not something the average person can easily recognize.

So a team like Orihara/Pirinen can go out there and skate and not have good ice coverage or strong edges, but it looked good and they certainly move their bodies well, so why aren't they scored higher? I mean, if you don't have a skating background, there's a lot to learn about technique (in addition to the ever-present and reputation-judging) in order to understand the results.

OTOH I am not a fan of turning our unique sport into a lowest-common-denominator type of scoring where choreo steps, slides, and vibes determine outcomes. The truly best skaters and teams can be audience-friendly while demonstrating stellar technique, and then it's breathtaking to watch.

 

[kwanfan1818]

but also that a lot of what the criteria rewards is specialized and not something the average person can easily recognize.

The same is true of gymnastics and diving, yet good gymnastics and diving commentators explain it perfectly well. And they aren’t the only sports with esoteric rules and criteria that are not easily seen with the naked eye on the one hand, or not understood as important even when seen on the other. I still can’t recognize vaults or many moves on the uneven parallel bars, but I’ve got people that identify them and their relative value, and a commentator will tell me when something is underrotated or not connected or what part of the legs are looked at to count as a full split or not done in a way that gets full credit, aside from unstuck landings, falls, and form breaks that I can see clearly.

I don’t know how commentary for gymnastics changed once the scoring was overhauled, but I think it was devastating to have US commentary dominated by people who weren’t just uninterested in learning the new system, but were openly hostile to it, along with USFS which seemingly had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting it. In Canada, there were antidotes to Browning, and the ISU had Barton giving it a shot for a long time to try to at least apply general standards in his JGP commentary, where it was far easier to accept for skaters most people had never seen before, rather than trying to switch to different standards for skaters who were already known and for whom people had their notions.

I think it’s been a major shift to give commentators access to the scores and reviews in progress, so they can make sense of it during the replays —before that, they were between a rock and a hard place even if they had opinions about anything but the most obvious things, when the actual calls and scoring might be in a different universe if they gave viewers detailed info — but it’s also still the people. It’s been smart of the ISU to cultivate announcers who are at least not hostile to what they are doing, and whining about how much better everything was when they were skating.

 

[Karen-W]

I think the ISU is missing the boat in not working directly with Sportity to have a specialized ISU Championships/GP Series app with access to the live scoring for ALL fans. We all love to see the reviews in progress as they're happening & that's one thing the USFS does right with Nats results, albeit on their website, but also so many of the Senior Bs are using Sportity now.

 

[just tuned in]

I think an additional problem for skating is that it isn't just whether the judging is in line with the criteria, but also that a lot of what the criteria rewards is specialized and not something the average person can easily recognize.

So a team like Orihara/Pirinen can go out there and skate and not have good ice coverage or strong edges, but it looked good and they certainly move their bodies well, so why aren't they scored higher? I mean, if you don't have a skating background, there's a lot to learn about technique (in addition to the ever-present and reputation-judging) in order to understand the results.

OTOH I am not a fan of turning our unique sport into a lowest-common-denominator type of scoring where choreo steps, slides, and vibes determine outcomes. The truly best skaters and teams can be audience-friendly while demonstrating stellar technique, and then it's breathtaking to watch.

I think we need more sustained distant camera angles that show speed and ice coverage.

 

[Matryeshka]

So I was on such a high from the ladies, I went back and watched the RDs.

My thoughts: we are as bad as we accuse the judges of being. We see what we want to see. And maybe--I can't believe I'm typing this--it's because the ladies were sooo gooood, but the RD just felt like a let down in all areas. Maybe not the baby Czechs, baby Brits, and America 2-3 and the Spanish. I thought just about every other couple was overscored. Most of the top teams seemed tentative and off their game.

And I love the French. LOOOOOOVE L/B, but that was not their best performance. And D/L-M were REALLY off. Americans 2-3 had their best performance of the RD of the season and so did the Spanish, so while I might not have personally put L/B behind them, I think an argument can be made (I'd have had them between the Americans, and y'all know I am not always a fan of CarPoms, though I am starting to be converted. I am easily ). The announcement of Cizeron returning clearly rocked them, and it's got to be hard knowing your Federation is possibly supporting a new team over you.

The fact that LaLa isn't closer to the podium is criminal, but I also really hate that program. I have no feelings about the Italians, hope they move up to podium position because they're the best skaters, but their programs are not great. I no longer think they're terrible, but that's about the highest compliment I can give them. At least Fear/Gibson performed. They were entertaining. I'm actually OK with them being above the Italians, but I'd like it better if LaLa was above both, but again, Austin Powers, ugh. Good for C/B for taking out a few songs. Still too many, but I thought it was smoother today and I'm sure the judges were relieved to not hear 80 bazillion of the same songs they've already heard. G/P...sigh. I'd have had them first, but I'm like that.

What I really am is ready for new blood. I cannot WAIT for the top teams to retire. Even if they don't retire, I hope the judges retire them after the Olys.

 

[Wyliefan]

wrong thread

 

[Wyliefan]

And D/L-M were REALLY off.

I thought so too. But since they're not my favorite French team, and since others were really into it, I thought maybe I was just being biased.

 

[just tuned in]

So I was on such a high from the ladies, I went back and watched the RDs.

My thoughts: we are as bad as we accuse the judges of being. We see what we want to see. And maybe--I can't believe I'm typing this--it's because the ladies were sooo gooood, but the RD just felt like a let down in all areas. Maybe not the baby Czechs, baby Brits, and America 2-3 and the Spanish. I thought just about every other couple was overscored. Most of the top teams seemed tentative and off their game.

And I love the French. LOOOOOOVE L/B, but that was not their best performance. And D/L-M were REALLY off. Americans 2-3 had their best performance of the RD of the season and so did the Spanish, so while I might not have personally put L/B behind them, I think an argument can be made (I'd have had them between the Americans, and y'all know I am not always a fan of CarPoms, though I am starting to be converted. I am easily ). The announcement of Cizeron returning clearly rocked them, and it's got to be hard knowing your Federation is possibly supporting a new team over you.

The fact that LaLa isn't closer to the podium is criminal, but I also really hate that program. I have no feelings about the Italians, hope they move up to podium position because they're the best skaters, but their programs are not great. I no longer think they're terrible, but that's about the highest compliment I can give them. At least Fear/Gibson performed. They were entertaining. I'm actually OK with them being above the Italians, but I'd like it better if LaLa was above both, but again, Austin Powers, ugh. Good for C/B for taking out a few songs. Still too many, but I thought it was smoother today and I'm sure the judges were relieved to not hear 80 bazillion of the same songs they've already heard. G/P...sigh. I'd have had them first, but I'm like that.

What I really am is ready for new blood. I cannot WAIT for the top teams to retire. Even if they don't retire, I hope the judges retire them after the Olys.

Gree/Par should have been much higher, they were fantastic. I did not like CarPom at all -- they were frantic and messy. I enjoyed Gil/Poir the most. Fear/Gib started strong but got slow in the middle.

 

[Allen]

Well, this last couple of pages were a fun read. You all gave me my reality tv argument for the day.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Unfortunately, I was never able to see the rhythm dance, none of it. I’m trying to go through all the pages where Piper and Paul are mentioned, so what were the costumes they wore for worlds? Something they had before or something different?

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Unfortunately, I was never able to see the rhythm dance, none of it. I’m trying to go through all the pages where Piper and Paul are mentioned, so what were the costumes they wore for worlds? Something they had before or something different?

They went with the pink and yellow striped bathing suits.

 

[Karen-W]

Unfortunately, I was never able to see the rhythm dance, none of it. I’m trying to go through all the pages where Piper and Paul are mentioned, so what were the costumes they wore for worlds? Something they had before or something different?

Get a VPN, then you can watch on the ISU's YT channel.