Who is the skater who in their career most benefitted from mistakes from others

[MAXSwagg]

Sarah's short program sucked you must not forgot though. She deserved 7th or 8th in the short but was placed 4th due to being reigning world bronze medalist on home ice.

Lmao Russian judge had her in what, 10th place after the SP?

 

[bardtoob]

There is so much to love about Yamaguchi, but it was very easy to explain the results when she lost, she was out jumped by Tonya or Midori. In fact, she even explained it this way. Listen to Yamaguchi at 7:35 into this clip.

https://youtu.be/J8hkPlkIcH4

ETA: ... Oh, goodness. It is Sarah Hughes. Yamaguchi at least always deserved a podium finish.

 

[savchenkoboss]

There is so much to love about Yamaguchi, but it was very easy to explain the results when she lost, she was out jumped by Tonya or Midori. In fact, she even explained it this way. Listen to Yamaguchi at 7:35 into this clip.

https://youtu.be/J8hkPlkIcH4

ETA: ... Oh, goodness. It is Sarah Hughes. Yamaguchi at least always deserved a podium finish.

I agree Ito at her absolute best likely beats Yamaguchi (especialy since Kristi is almost guaranteed to miss the triple salchow every time) but she a bit beat up by 91-92 when Kristi came into her own.

Harding only beat Yamaguchi 2 times out of something like 12 (?) career meetings. . I think it is hard to say Kristi was ever lucky to beat her. Tonya's only shot against Kristi was to land the triple axel, which she only landed 3 times ever. As we saw by the 89 Nationals when Tonya skating her absolute best (sans the triple axel) in both short and longs, still couldnt beat Kristi back when she had no artistry at all, even being 4th after figures to Kristi's 8th. You have to beat someone many times like Slutskaya and Kwan beat each other many times, or Ito and Yamaguchi beat each other many times (especialy stretching into their pro careers) for any possible luck to be involved.

 

[bardtoob]

I think it is hard to say Kristi was ever lucky to beat her. Tonya's only shot against Kristi was to land the triple axel, which she only landed 3 times ever. As we saw by the 89 Nationals when Tonya skating her absolute best (sans the triple axel) in both short and longs, still couldnt beat Kristi back when she had no artistry at all, even being 4th after figures to Kristi's 8th.

Whatever. 89 Nationals results were not to help Kristi, but to help Trenary, as far as I am concerned.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Whatever. 89 Nationals results were not to help Kristi, but to help Trenary, as far as I am concerned.

How so? FWIW I disagreed with the results of the 89 Nationals completely and IMO Harding should have been the National Champion that year but they are still a fact. Harding at her best couldnt even beat no artistry baby version Kristi when both did clean short and longs with all the triples but the triple axel. Not even being way higher in figures to boot. The later mature full of artistry adult version of Kristi cant really benefit from Harding's mistakes, it takes a hail mary triple axel from Harding she lands once in a blue moon to even be competitive.

 

[Marco]

The biggest benefit Sarah had was the same as Anett’s: former world medalists being gifted 4th in the sp after terrible skates.

Sarah actually had the lutz-loop combo and some good spins and speed like Irina. It wasn't a terrible skate in that there were mistakes - it's just that she had the usual jump issues and others were better - I at least would have Fumie in front, maybe Grannie too. Maria was stiff, so she was rightfully marked down. And I don't think I would put Sarah behind someone slow like J Slo. Overall I wouldn't really put Sarah lower than 6th after the short, but momentum and home court counted for something, but still - not higher than 5th for me.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Sarah actually had the lutz-loop combo and some good spins and speed like Irina. It wasn't a terrible skate in that there were mistakes - it's just that she had the usual jump issues and others were better - I at least would have Fumie in front, maybe Grannie too. Maria was stiff, so she was rightfully marked down. And I don't think I would put Sarah behind someone slow like J Slo. Overall I wouldn't really put Sarah lower than 6th after the short, but momentum and home court counted for something, but still - not higher than 5th for me.

I think Sarah and Maria both turned in fairly mediocre shorts. In actuality Julia and Fumie should have been over both. I had Fumie clear 4th, if not even 3rd in the short. Julia didnt have much besides jumps, but what amazing jumps, the best in the event that day. I would have had Maria over Sarah too, and I could have lived with her 3rd or 4th in the short easier than Sarah although I would have disagreed with that too.

Sarah's combo was a bad flutz and had no flow out. Her spins were much worse than usual, her camel was super slow, and her combination spin travelled. Her triple flip wasnt that well down. And she was unusually slow. She was clean in that she didnt have a major mistake, but it wasnt really a good skate.

 

[bardtoob]

How so? FWIW I disagreed with the results of the 89 Nationals completely and IMO Harding should have been the National Champion that year but they are still a fact.

Team Jill, which included Carlos Fassi, was banking on beating Ito in Figures by several places, then finishing 2nd in the SP and LP to win the World Championship. That scenario would fail if Harding placed above Ito in Figures and placed above Jill in the SP and LP. Conversely, Kristi would never place well enough in Figures to be a threat for more than World Bronze with that competition format.

Tonya was going for Midori Ito, not Kristi.

https://youtu.be/6u50lfEzEsQ?t=61

 

[savchenkoboss]

Team Jill, which included Carlos Fassi, was banking on beating Ito in Figure by several places, then finishing 2nd in the SP and LP to win the World Championship. That scenario would fail if Harding placed above Ito in figures and placed above Jill in the SP and LP.

Tonya was going for Midori Ito, not Kristi.

https://youtu.be/6u50lfEzEsQ?t=61

Oh ok, that makes sense. Why would the USFSA not want to send the 2 skaters who gave them the best chance though? Or did they think Jill had a better shot beat Midori with no Tonya, than either Tonya or Jill had with each other.

 

[bardtoob]

Oh ok, that makes sense. Why would the USFSA not want to send the 2 skaters who gave them the best chance though? Or did they think Jill had a better shot beat Midori with no Tonya, than either Tonya or Jill had with each other.

Straight competition!?! Because that is not how it worked back then.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UBj3f0etuc

 

[alchemy void]

Sarah actually had the lutz-loop combo and some good spins and speed like Irina. It wasn't a terrible skate in that there were mistakes - it's just that she had the usual jump issues and others were better - I at least would have Fumie in front, maybe Grannie too. Maria was stiff, so she was rightfully marked down. And I don't think I would put Sarah behind someone slow like J Slo. Overall I wouldn't really put Sarah lower than 6th after the short, but momentum and home court counted for something, but still - not higher than 5th for me.

Robin Wagner, is that you?

I agree Hughes had fantastic spins and speed and a double axel, but the triples were much worse than her usual, or what she delivered in the long program. The flutz was extremely severe, even for her standard, and the flutz was very underrotated, to a greater degree than usual. And the flip was landed for about half a second before the blade was backwards, it was so cheated, Scott and Sandra thought it was two footed. Also lacking preceding footwork.

I really think 9th or 10th after the SP is justifiable. I get reputation and everything, but no way should Fumie or Sebestyen been below Hughes in the short program.

1 Slutskaya
2 Kwan
3 Cohen
4 Granny
5 Queen Fumie
6 Butyrskaya
7 Meier
8 Gusmeroli
9 Hughes

Much love to @judgejudy27 for giving me the opportunity to rehash this competition yet again

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Sarah's win in SLC happened mere days after the pairs debacle. My guess is that the judging panel was under tremendous scrutiny not to allow that kind of error happening again.

 

[Marco]

Robin Wagner, is that you?

OMG [collapses on the floor saying OMG while hugging Sarah and making sure the camera can capture her face]

 

[SmallFairy]

The famous Tara-scream is not the only scream in Olympic skating history...

I actually thought, seeing it again, Sarah was really cute reacting to her victory. Wagner otoh

 

[lala]

The famous Tara-scream is not the only scream in Olympic skating history...

Baiul for example..she was hysteric

 

[UGG]

I don’t think Sarah received any 4th place ordinals in the SP it’s

The famous Tara-scream is not the only scream in Olympic skating history...

I actually thought, seeing it again, Sarah was really cute reacting to her victory. Wagner otoh

Robin dragged her down on the floor and made it all about herself. She stole Sarah’s moment.

 

[savchenkoboss]

OMG [collapses on the floor saying OMG while hugging Sarah and making sure the camera can capture her face]

That was the moment for the first time ever I decided I disliked Robin (I had been on the fence until then) and believed all the inside information I had heard from a couple friends of mine that she is a gigantic attention hog and a shifty person in real life. There is probably a reason Sasha left her faster than any other coach too.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I don’t think Sarah received any 4th place ordinals in the SP it’s

She actually had 3 4th place ordinals I believe. Nobody had a majority since the ordinals were all over the place. Maria actually had 3 3rd place ordinals while Sarah had none, but this made no difference. Here are the ordinals:

http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG003.HTM

Notice Maria Butyrskaya who wound up 5th had no 5th place ordinals, and Fumie Suguri who wound up 7th had no 7th place ordinals, LOL!

Robin dragged her down on the floor and made it all about herself. She stole Sarah’s moment.

It was sad, I would have liked to have seen Sarah's natural reaction.

 

[VGThuy]

She actually had 3 4th place ordinals I believe. Nobody had a majority since the ordinals were all over the place. Maria actually had 3 3rd place ordinals while Sarah had none, but this made no difference. Here are the ordinals:

http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg2002/results/SEG003.HTM

Notice Maria Butyrskaya who wound up 5th had no 5th place ordinals, and Fumie Suguri who wound up 7th had no 7th place ordinals, LOL!

Those ordinals remind me why IJS is ultimately a good thing. I swear, if I was a skater 6th-11th or even lower, I'd be super confused with all those highly divergent ordinals for my skate and I'm sure no amount of explanations from the judges would clear anything up for me.

 

[Marco]

Fumie skated early in the short and that is very unfortunate. A 5.0, 5.1, a 10th and an 11th? I swear she was ahead of someone (Julia?) initially until someone else (Maria?) skated and the ordinals flipped against her favour and kicked her out of the final group

 

[savchenkoboss]

Fumie skated early in the short and that is very unfortunate. A 5.0, 5.1, a 10th and an 11th? I swear she was ahead of someone (Julia?) initially until someone else (Maria?) skated and the ordinals flipped against her favour and kicked her out of the final group

I wonder if her performance in the final flight would have given her a shot at the bronze given the other performances? Probably not, but it would have been interesting to see. Far better to have her in the final flight than Julia who had a good short but was never going to be a medal contender. I presume that is why Sarah was held up in the short, along with being reigning world bronze medalist in her home country, the judges knew she was probably the most likely girl in the entire field to do a totally clean long. She was such a consistent beast with clean skates. And after the pairs scandal they didnt want confusion to the dumb casuals why the only girl to do a clean long (maybe) didnt even medal. Now I dont think they saw the two 3-3 standing ovation long coming.

 

[WillyElliot]

I said this on another thread, I think it is a joke Sumners even was .1 from winning after popping like 5 jumps, even vs a slightly off Witt, but whatever. The judges sure loved Rozzy I guess.

.

I agree. I never understood how Roz was THAT close to OGM. She was popping all over the place, and her ending was anemic. Tiffany had only a step out on a 3flip and actually had a strong performance. And Elaine gave the strongest performance over her teammates.

For this poll I picked Hughes.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I am really surprised so many are picking Hughes. What events other than the 2002 Olympics did she benefit from anyones mistakes? 2001 worlds Butyrskaya skated some of her best short and long programs ever and was still dumped by the judges and placed below Hughes. That was questionable judging but not benefitting from someones mistakes. U.S Nationals she never won and was always medaling with a solid skate. And Slutskaya and Kwan failing in SLC was almost predictable, Irina always messes up when in position to win a big event, had done it at the 97, 2000, and 2001 worlds too, and Kwan was having at best a mediocre year. I dont think either skated any worse in SLC than was probably imagined, maybe Slutskaya a little bit, but with the whole drama of the Russian president talking of withdrawing his athletes from the Games it is all the less surprising. Hughes just skated much better than imagined, but nobody else really skated worse.

I am also amazed there are no votes for Pang & Tong. They won both their worlds only due to the Olympic Champion not skating remember, which I guess technically isnt others mistakes but really is almost a defaulted win considering the two particular teams (Totmianina & Marinin, Shen & Zhao) are both teams they didnt even beat a single time their whole careers. They also benefitted and mostly won medals only when the Zhangs, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Dube & Davison, Petrova & Tikhonov, Kavaguti & Smirnov all teams the judges preferred over them and generally gave higher GOE and PCS to, made mishaps.

Eldredge should have more votes too. He generally won medals only when Urmanov, Kulik, Candelero, and Stojko made a lot of mistakes.

 

[savchenkoboss]

.

I agree. I never understood how Roz was THAT close to OGM. She was popping all over the place, and her ending was anemic. Tiffany had only a step out on a 3flip and actually had a strong performance. And Elaine gave the strongest performance over her teammates.

For this poll I picked Hughes.

I dont understand why everyone loved Sumners so much. I always preferred Zayak and Chin. It is too bad both of those were totally dumped in figures in Sarajevo since the judges were putting all their eggs in the Sumners basket, but Sumners still managed to gag it away in the end when the judges were all but salivating to give her the gold (the fact she was .1 from winning after blowing the short program and popping 5 jumps in the long). Chin in her youth was the complete package, she had beautiful artistry, wonderful spins, speed, huge jumps, and a triple flip which was almost unheard of for women back then. And she magically improved to 2nd in figures at the 85 worlds from 12th in Sarajevo with Sumners retired.

 

[attyfan]

I am really surprised so many are picking Hughes. What events other than the 2002 Olympics did she benefit from anyones mistakes? ... .

What events did Hughes ever win where others skated cleanly? IIRC, Hughes won exactly two events at the senior international level ... 2001/2002 SC and again, 2002 Olys; MK and Slute both made mistakes at each of these events.

 

[UGG]

I am really surprised so many are picking Hughes. What events other than the 2002 Olympics did she benefit from anyones mistakes? 2001 worlds Butyrskaya skated some of her best short and long programs ever and was still dumped by the judges and placed below Hughes. That was questionable judging but not benefitting from someones mistakes. U.S Nationals she never won and was always medaling with a solid skate. And Slutskaya and Kwan failing in SLC was almost predictable, Irina always messes up when in position to win a big event, had done it at the 97, 2000, and 2001 worlds too, and Kwan was having at best a mediocre year. I dont think either skated any worse in SLC than was probably imagined, maybe Slutskaya a little bit, but with the whole drama of the Russian president talking of withdrawing his athletes from the Games it is all the less surprising. Hughes just skated much better than imagined, but nobody else really skated worse.

I am also amazed there are no votes for Pang & Tong. They won both their worlds only due to the Olympic Champion not skating remember, which I guess technically isnt others mistakes but really is almost a defaulted win considering the two particular teams (Totmianina & Marinin, Shen & Zhao) are both teams they didnt even beat a single time their whole careers. They also benefitted and mostly won medals only when the Zhangs, Savchenko & Szolkowy, Dube & Davison, Petrova & Tikhonov, Kavaguti & Smirnov all teams the judges preferred over them and generally gave higher GOE and PCS to, made mishaps.

Eldredge should have more votes too. He generally won medals only when Urmanov, Kulik, Candelero, and Stojko made a lot of mistakes.

Sarah's whole career is her OGM. If Irina and MK had not made mistakes, she would be Sarah Hughes, world bronze medalist and skate America Champ. She would be a nobody in skating. I think that is why everyone is picking her. Her who skating career and legacy are because of mistakes by Michelle and Irina at that competition.

 

[VGThuy]

To be fair, the judges didn’t dump Maria for Hughes at 2001 Worlds. Butryskaya had a clean but shaky and not really clean upon closer inspection SP. In the LP, she beat Hughes. Hughes didn’t even place third in the SP, Nikodinov did. And also, Kwan did indeed skate worse than imagined in SLC. Her nationals skate a month before and her Worlds LP skate a month later most likely would have been enough to win her the gold if everything else stayed the same and by 2002 Kwan had a reputation of having a so-so GP series but bringing it for the big competitions as it happened in the previous two seasons.

 

[savchenkoboss]

To be fair, the judges didn’t dump Maria for Hughes at 2001 Worlds. Butryskaya had a clean but shaky and not really clean upon closer inspection SP. In the LP, she beat Hughes. Hughes didn’t even place third in the SP, Nikodinov did. And also, Kwan did indeed skate worse than imagined in SLC. Her nationals skate a month before and her Worlds LP skate a month later most likely would have been enough to win her the gold if everything else stayed the same.

Maria skated the same program she had handily won the short at the 2000 worlds even with Slutskaya and Kwan skating cleanly, and had gotten 10 5.9s for, and which many felt she should have had a few 6.0s for presentation for. At the 2001 worlds skating this exact same program cleanly again she was now 5th behind not only Slutskaya, but Kwan who two footed her combination, Nikodinov (who had a wonderful skate but of course isnt a big name internationally), and Hughes (who never has had good quality shorts). I would call them dumpage. She was defending World Champion and atleast Russian co-#1 with Slutskaya in 2000 to probably politically the Russian #3 behind Voltchkova in 2001. She had also just had an embarassing showing at both Russian Nationals where she bombed and barely took 3rd over Sokolova, and at the GPF where she came 4th after doing only 4 of 14 triples in her final 2 programs, so was probably on out the outs coming into worlds.

Considering their erratic skating throughout the season and the pressure they were under, and the Russian buzz and controversy that had been swirling since the pairs event, Slutskaya and Kwan both skated about how I would have expected them to skate in SLC despite that both had better skates throughout the season and even at worlds in the LP. Neither of their skates surprised me, only Hughes' did.

 

[VGThuy]

Well good for you, but I do know if we're talking about people's expectations, people thought both Kwan and Irina could have skated those programs better than THAT. Kwan was even doing triple flips in that December Pro-Am competition during Fields of Gold.

As for Maria, 2001 Worlds SP skate was NOT the same as 2000 Worlds even if both were technically clean. To me, it's very clear by just watching. Butyrskaya looked much more frightened in 2001 whereas in 2000 it was transcendent. She also had a shaky landing on her combo and a very pitched forward landing on that double axel. I also think the program suffered a bit because it was a repeat and was already skated perfectly in the season prior. Kind of like Kwan's "The Feeling Begins" and many other programs from skaters where it doesn't seem as special the second time around. The ordinals didn't show a consensus either.

Maria's skating was regressing a bit, but I grant that if the judges really wanted to, they could have held up her up a bit and shown her the benefit of the doubt. I just think Maria made losing that benefit of the doubt a bit easier as her skating was becoming shakier and shakier and other skaters were overtaking her in the non-jump elements. I think what helped Hughes was that the judges didn't care as much about her Lutz entrance and that major UR she had on that Lutz as they should have but Hughes was also improving her skating and showing a lot more flow than Butyrskaya. I do think Butyskaya skating well in the LP brought her back to their graces, but by that time with that QR ranking, it was a bit late. Do you think Butyrskaya should have beaten Slutskaya in the LP and thus vaulted her back into the bronze? I remember that one judge put Kwan below Hughes in the LP for Kwan's near-perfect and very inspired skate.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Sarah's whole career is her OGM. If Irina and MK had not made mistakes, she would be Sarah Hughes, world bronze medalist and skate America Champ. She would be a nobody in skating. I think that is why everyone is picking her. Her who skating career and legacy are because of mistakes by Michelle and Irina at that competition.

I could see your point maybe if she got a big legacy from that win but she didnt. She didnt even get much of a pro career out of it, as the pro circuit was dead by then. And she would be a commodity for shows even as it was being a top skater who was American if she wanted to be whenever she retired.

In many ways I think she is better off (skating wise anyway) not winning there. She almost certainly competes another 4 years and wins a lot of medals. She could have even been a contender for the 06 Olympic Gold IF she could adapt to IJS (that is a big if of course as on paper the new system isnt suited to her at all). Remember before SLC while Hughes was not expected to be the OGM there, many felt both her and Cohen had their best days ahead of them, which makes sense given how very young both still were. A lot of people now forget she was a consistent top skater for a few years already, and just remember her as the fluke OGM winner in SLC, and that she won numerous other medals, they think she was Sotnikova minus the raging controversy. I absolutely do not think, seeing the way she is talked about at places like this, and not talked about anywhere else, her reputation was bolstered by her OGM, particularly when it seems feasible she continues as a consistent top skater for longer had she not won. Someone like Baiul I can atleast see was much better off winning the OGM in many regards (finances, stardom) despite that it all but ended the good part of her skating career, amateur or professional. Lipinski the same, particularly when there are real doubts for both, Baiul- massive growth spurt, never had the tech. really to stay up there by 98, Lipinski- hip, if they even could have continued. Hughes not really.