Who is the skater who in their career most benefitted from mistakes from others

Which skater benefitted throughout their overall career most from mistakes by others

  • Todd Eldredge

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Michelle Kwan

    Votes: 5 5.7%

  • Stephane Lambiel

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Lu Chen

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Totmianina & Marinin

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Pang & Tong

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Kristi Yamaguchi

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Evan Lysacek

    Votes: 18 20.7%

  • Fumie Suguri

    Votes: 2 2.3%

  • Sarah Hughes

    Votes: 54 62.1%
  • Total voters
    87
S

sylvestercat

Banned Member
Messages
191
Some that come to mind for me.

Todd Eldredge- medaled at the 91 worlds since Barna made mistakes in the long program. Won his world silver in 95 since Candelero, Zagorodniuk, and Urmanov made mistakes. Won his world gold in 96 since Kulik, Stojko, Urmanov made mistakes. Won his world silver in 97 since Kulik and Yagudin made mistakes and since Urmanov WD. Won his silver at the 98 worlds and bronze in 2001 due to the others WD or mistakes too. When others skated cleanly like the 98 Games he would up out of the medals.

Michelle Kwan- won 2000 and 2001 only since Slutskaya and Butyrskaya (well 2000 only probably for Maria) made mistakes, in 2003 since Slutskaya didnt skate and Cohen made mistakes, 98 since Tara WD and everyone made mistakes including MK in lackluster post Olympic event. Only 96 did she win on her own skating.

Lu Chen- won both her Olympic medals in 94 and 98 due to the others mistakes. In 94 she doesnt medal if Sato does her triple lutz in the short, if Bonaly lands even 1 of her 2 lutzes in the long, if Josse skates well. 98 she needed Maria, Irina, and Hubert all to make a lot of mistakes. Won her world title in 95 only since Bobek, Markova, and Bonaly made mistakes. Her world bronzes in 92 and 93 were only through others mistakes as well. Basically her world silver in 96 is the only medal she won that wasnt through others mistakes.

Pang/Tong- won Worlds in 2006 despite a fall since the Zhangs also fell, and Totmianina/Marinin and Shen/Zhao didnt skate. Won in 2010 only since Shen/Zhao didnt skate and Savchenko/Szolkowy had mistakes. Olympic silver in 2010 was because Savchenko/Szolkow and Kavaguti/Smirnov had mistakes.

Yamaguchi- won her Olympic Gold in 92 with mistakes only since Kerrigan, Harding, and Ito who would have all beaten her had they skated cleanly had mistakes too. won world title in 91 since Harding and Ito had mistakes. won worlds in 92 over weak field where nobody skated well.

Suguri- her medals at the 2002, 2003, and 2006 worlds were all through others mistakes.

Totmianina/Marinin- win at the 2006 Olympics was because Shen/Zhao were hurt. 2005 worlds again since Shen/Zhao were hurt. 2004 worlds since Shen/Zhao fell in the short. Basically they won only when Shen/Zhao had injuries or problems.

Hughes- Only rose to prominence in 2000-2001 season due to all of Butyrskaya's mistakes, then won Olympic Gold thanks to Slutskaya messing up.

Lysacek- He was unbeatable at the 2009 worlds even if everyone skated perfectly, but at the 2010 Olympics his winning performances wouldnt have won had a single one of Lambiel, Joubert, Chan, Takahashi, or Abbott skated cleanly and if all of those did he would have finished in only 6th place behind all of those.

Lambiel- won both his worlds only since Plushenko didnt skate, and since all the other contenders made mistakes.
 
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Definitely Hughes. Almost all her mistakes were from mistakes by other people including Cohen who the judges probably put over Hughes everytime if both are clean.
 
Sarah Hughes. She is OGM only because both Michelle and Irina made mistakes.

Totally disagree about Michelle Kwan, above. There was no way either Irina or Maria, regardless of mistakes, should have beaten Michelle's 7-triple long programs in 2000 and 2001. Only judging shenanigans could have made that happen.
 
Since judging shenanigans or whatever you want to call them is a daily part of the sport, that is kind of an utterly pointless argument.
 
A toss up between Michelle Kwan, Evan Lysacek, Sarah Hughes, and Todd Eldredge. Duhamel & Radford should also be included though. Generally if you are a super consistent skater you will benefit often from your competitors mistakes as most skaters arent consistent in the sport except in dance.

The only time Totmianina & Marinin benefitted was Shen & Zhao's short program fall at the 2004 worlds. 2005 worlds were in Russia and they skated well, so they were winning even if Shen & Zhao were healthy and skated perfectly. And their skates at the 2006 Olympics were unbeatable. So they arent a good choice like the others.
 
What about Jeffrey Buttle? He would usually medal due to PCs because others made mistakes on their jumps. If others went clean, he would drop in the standings.
 
I am surprised how many more votes Hughes has than Lysacek and Kwan, especialy Lysacek. Evan could not have won either of his major titles had any one of 4 or 5 other men performed to their potential. Heck the list of guys who could have beaten Evan in Vancouver had they skated to their potential is practically endless. Hughes really only benefitted from her competitors mistakes once, in Salt Lake City, and even there Irina didn't skate worse than she normally does in a big event, so if Hughes benefitted from Irina underperforming than Kwan did too at the 2000 and 2001 worlds both where Irina skated no better in the crucial LP than she was at the 2002 Olympics.

Lysacek benefitted from his competitors screw ups much more often than Hughes, and many more skaters were involved that could have beaten him than ever could have beaten her.
 
blue_idealist, it would be impossible to apply that to Buttle more than Lysacek. Both were winning at the exact same time and mini era without quads, but Buttle did it with far more artistry and skating quality than Lysacek, so if Buttle needed help from the quad guys, just imagine how much Evan needed for his big titles. So even if it could be applied to Buttle, it clearly applies more to Lysacek, already eliminating Buttle.
 
Lu Chen. She only medaled at the 94 Olympics due to mistakes from Sato, Chouinard, Harding, Bonaly who all would have beaten her had they gone clean. She then only medaled at the 98 Olympics due to a lot of mistakes by Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, Bobek, and Hubert. She won her world title in 95 only due to 2 falls from Bobek and mistakes by Bonaly. She won her medals at the 92 and 93 worlds by other peoples mistakes. The only time she didnt benefit from others mistakes was the 96 worlds where she was brilliant and probably should have won, but every other time in her career she was solid, consistent, very good, but capatilized on others splatting to win her medals.
 
Definitely Sarah. On any good day, she wouldn't beat a 6 triple Michelle or Irina even if she was clean with 7 (think 2001 Worlds or 2001/2 GPF etc).

Definitely NOT Michelle. When she was clean, she was actually capable of winning by herself whether others made mistakes or not (think 96 Worlds, 98 Nationals, Nagano being a notable exception). Instead, it was her mistakes in the GPs/GPFs in the early 2000s that let Irina have momentum to ride on and get 5.8s and 5.9s which to this day I am ??? over. To say Michelle capitalized on Irina's mistakes at 2000 and 2001 Worlds is weird because she has always been the more consistent one come big competitions, and Irina never really showed 7 triples or the 2 3/3s in the same program since that infamous, nothing-to-lose GPF (and those weren't even clean, and the ones in 2001 even less so). So she wasn't normally consistent enough for Michelle to take advantage from her mistakes at those Worlds.

Tara benefited from Michelle's off year to take her 3 titles away in 1997, which also pathed her way for 1998. But she also beat a clean Michelle at Nagano, so I guess she didn't totally just benefit from Michelle's mistakes.

And it would be unfair to say Michelle or Shizuka benefited from Sasha's mistakes, since she always makes mistakes.
 
I would say Katarina Witt. She deserves her Olympic wins, but in both 84 and 88 her main rivals crumbled. Sarah Hughes would be my second choice, but Katarina could have easily had a silver and a bronze if Roz or Debbie skated to their potential.
 
Cleo1782 said:
I would say Katarina Witt. She deserves her Olympic wins, but in both 84 and 88 her main rivals crumbled. Sarah Hughes would be my second choice, but Katarina could have easily had a silver and a bronze if Roz or Debbie skated to their potential.
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Witt didnt skate her best either of those days either. It is not like Sumners and Thomas had an easy run at beating Witt at her best. The only time Witt and Thomas both skated their very best, Witt won easily- 1987 Worlds. And it was in the freaking United States, and with Debi as defending and reigning World Champion too. As for Sumners, Sumners cant do a clean long program to save her life, she never did one ever, so saying Witt was lucky she didnt go clean is like saying so and so was lucky Nancy Kerrigan didnt go clean.

I dont get all the people picking Hughes. She benefited from mistakes at just 1 event, big deal. Even Kwan benefitted more often, she won 2000 and 2001 worlds only since Irina and Maria both made mistakes, won Nationals in 2003, 2004, 2005 since Cohen had mistakes (and in 2000 although she wins if both she and Cohen are clean that year), won Worlds in 98 in a Tara-less field where everyone including Kwan had mistakes, etc... I think people are just voting Hughes since they dont like her.

Chen would be my #1 pick, Totmiaina & Marinin my #2, Kwan my #3, and probably Savchenko & Szolkowy or Eldredge my #4.
 
And I know this forum is super pro Russian so I bet hardly anyone will admit it but lets be real every single title Totmianina & Marinin ever on was only due to mistakes from Shen & Zhao. And having little competition in Russia with an aged/past their best Petrova & Tikhonov as Russian #2.
 
savchenkoboss said:
Witt didnt skate her best either of those days either. It is not like Sumners and Thomas had an easy run at beating Witt at her best. The only time Witt and Thomas both skated their very best, Witt won easily- 1987 Worlds. And it was in the freaking United States, and with Debi as defending and reigning World Champion too. As for Sumners, Sumners cant do a clean long program to save her life, she never did one ever, so saying Witt was lucky she didnt go clean is like saying so and so was lucky Nancy Kerrigan didnt go clean.

I dont get all the people picking Hughes. She benefited from mistakes at just 1 event, big deal. Even Kwan benefitted more often, she won 2000 and 2001 worlds only since Irina and Maria both made mistakes, won Nationals in 2003, 2004, 2005 since Cohen had mistakes (and in 2000 although she wins if both she and Cohen are clean that year), won Worlds in 98 in a Tara-less field where everyone including Kwan had mistakes, etc... And Kwan isnt even close to my top choice, yet she benefitted from mistakes more often than Hughes who did just 1 event her whole career. I think people are just voting Hughes since they dont like her.
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Sumners was the defending world champion and Witt's figures seem to get quite a bit better pretty quickly from 83 to 84. Listen, Debbie and Roz faltered but with Witt not knocking it out of the park the door was wide open for someone to beat her both Olympics. I mean Roz needed a 2a and almost won with multiple pops in 84. My choice for Witt is because she did benefit hugely from 2 golds, she got to tour professionally and made a lot of money when skating was hot. Sarah really didn't get much as far as endorsements or shows, so I would saying career wise Katarina benefitted the most.
 
Cleo1782 said:
Sumners was the defending world champion and Witt's figures seem to get quite a bit better pretty quickly from 83 to 84. Listen, Debbie and Roz faltered but with Witt not knocking it out of the park the door was wide open for someone to beat her both Olympics. I mean Roz needed a 2a and almost won with multiple pops in 84. My choice for Witt is because she did benefit hugely from 2 golds, she got to tour professionally and made a lot of money when skating was hot. Sarah really didn't get much as far as endorsements or shows, so I would saying career wise Katarina benefitted the most.
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Fair enough. I just think it is important to realize part of the reason Thomas and Sumners, espeicaly Thomas who lost to Witt every program ever both were clean (except 88 worlds SP), had such a chance is since Witt herself made mistakes. And Sumners is about as consistent a skater as Nancy Kerrigan so....I still see what you are saying though.

I said this on another thread, I think it is a joke Sumners even was .1 from winning after popping like 5 jumps, even vs a slightly off Witt, but whatever. The judges sure loved Rozzy I guess.
 
savchenkoboss said:
Fair enough. I just think it is important to realize part of the reason Thomas and Sumners, espeicaly Thomas who lost to Witt every program ever both were clean (except 88 worlds SP), had such a chance is since Witt herself made mistakes. And Sumners is about as consistent a skater as Nancy Kerrigan so....I still see what you are saying though.

I said this on another thread, I think it is a joke Sumners even was .1 from winning after popping like 5 jumps, even vs a slightly off Witt, but whatever. The judges sure loved Rozzy I guess.
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It was super close........I think you are right. I vastly prefer Witt to Sumners. Something about Sumners talking about 84 always rubbed me the wrong way like she was a sore loser or robbed. I liked Debi Thomas more, but she basically walked away from the sport after 1988. I think Witt was a much better representative of the sport and I truly appreciate her love of skating, but it's interesting to think what would have happened if she had been a 2 time silver medalist.
 
Cleo1782 said:
It was super close........I think you are right. I vastly prefer Witt to Sumners. Something about Sumners talking about 84 always rubbed me the wrong way like she was a sore loser or robbed. I liked Debi Thomas more, but she basically walked away from the sport after 1988. I think Witt was a much better representative of the sport and I truly appreciate her love of skating, but it's interesting to think what would have happened if she had been a 2 time silver medalist.
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She would not have been allowed to leave East Germany to skate pro had she not won, probably both her Olympic Gold (even 1 wouldnt have been enough from what I have heard) so yeah in that sense I agree with you she was the luckiest when it comes to life and her skating career post amateur.
 
Just out of curiosity, what mistake did Maria B make at 2000 Worlds? I don't recall her making a big one ... and since she was brilliant in the SP, she would have won even if she came in 2nd in the FS. More importantly, what mistake did Chen Lu make at '96 Worlds? IIRC, both skaters were brilliant in both the SP and the FS, and IMO, they should have tied.
 
attyfan said:
Just out of curiosity, what mistake did Maria B make at 2000 Worlds? I don't recall her making a big one ... and since she was brilliant in the SP, she would have won even if she came in 2nd in the FS. More importantly, what mistake did Chen Lu make at '96 Worlds? IIRC, both skaters were brilliant in both the SP and the FS, and IMO, they should have tied.
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Chen made no mistake at the 96 worlds. She never made mistakes, but often benefitted from others. I didnt vote, but if I had voted I would have voted Chen, who every medal she ever won was through lots of others mistakes minus the 96 worlds silver.

Maria popped one triple salchow, and badly stumbled out of an aborted other triple salchow at the end of a sequence at the 2000 worlds.
 
attyfan said:
Just out of curiosity, what mistake did Maria B make at 2000 Worlds? I don't recall her making a big one ... and since she was brilliant in the SP, she would have won even if she came in 2nd in the FS. More importantly, what mistake did Chen Lu make at '96 Worlds? IIRC, both skaters were brilliant in both the SP and the FS, and IMO, they should have tied.
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Maria missed 2 triples. I think maybe both sals? Chen lu made no visible mistakes at 96 worlds.

NVM I got beaten to it lol
 
Evan Lysacek at the 2010 Olympics also probably comes only 7th if everyone else had skated cleanly. Something like that. Takahashi (for sure), Lambiel (for sure), Chan (for sure), Abbott (for sure), Plushenko (maybe), Oda (maybe), Joubert (maybe), all beat him if they had gone clean. Atleast Hughes would have been 3rd in Salt Lake City even if everyone skated their best. There is no skater who ever won any event that would have placed so low had others skated well. He also won 2009 Worlds, his prestigious Grand Prix final title, 2005 and 2006 world bronzes, all his U.S titles, most of his other medals, only through others mistakes. Of course people love Lysacek and hate Hughes though, so Hughes inexplicably has more votes than Lysacek.
 
When Katarina Witt missed the double loop in combination with the triple toe loop in the ladies' short program at the 1986 World Championships, that failure earned her only 4th place for the segment, even though she came back to win the free and place second overall to Debi Thomas.

The following year, Thomas touched down on the double Axel, placing seventh in that segment, but coming back in the free skate to place second overall to Witt.

In those days, making an error in the short was extremely costly, probably more so than now.
 
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I had to watch 2002 again. Irina's Tosca must have been one of the worst programs to win an Olympic silver medal (70ies and 80ies included). It was truly terrible, with lots of hand-to-head-to-create-drama choreo, awkward body positions and no spark at all. She was so much better than that, Tosca did her absolutely no favours. Had she skated like at worlds in 2005, she would have won. In Salt Lake she was heavy and slow, with bad posture. I was a huge Irina fan when she was younger and skated fun programs to musical and folk, but then she became warhorse dull. And she played it safe in 2002. No 3,3, and the longest ending-waving-arms-sequence ever. Anyone know who made that program???

Michelle was dead slow too. No spark in that program either, and we had seen it oh so many times before. Yes, Sarah benefitted from others mistakes, but she really was ON, and skated the long program of the night. I was no fan, but her choreo and jumps were really very good. Wonder what would have happened if Sasha had nailed everything. Her sp was a revelation.
 
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