Who is the better skater: Kwan or Cohen?

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76
IIRC Irina is older than Kwan, won her first Euros the same year Kwan won her first US Nationals, and nobody was saying Irina was an old vulture that had already botched two Olympics and should have retired ...

I guess it is because Irina was on top of her (mind and body) game at the conclusion of the 2004-05 season: she built an archifavoritism towards the Torino Games which seemed so right to the general public (she could back up her decision to give the Olympics one last try). Besides, people love a good old history of resurgence, overcoming your obstacles (illness, family tragedy, depression) and get a career back on track. Resilience is implied in the concept of Champion. By the end of the 2004-05 season, Kwan's career was over in the eye of the general public, she never seemed to (want to) adapt to the COP in the way Slútskaya and Cohen did, and faced a lot of physical and mental problems in her forced path to Torino.
 
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Fiero425

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2,302
I guess it is because Irina was on top of her (mind and body) game at the conclusion of the 2004-05 season: she built an archifavoritism towards the Torino Games which seemed so right to the general public (she could back up her decision to give the Olympics one last try). Besides, people love a good old history of resurgence, overcoming your obstacles (illness, family tragedy, depression) and get a career back on track. Resilience is implied in the concept of Champion. By the end of the 2004-05 season, Kwan's career was over in the eye of the general public, she never seemed to (want to) adapt to the COP in the way Slútskaya and Cohen did, and face a lot of physical and mental problems in her forced path to Torino.

MK just wasn't likable IMO; so self-entitled! It may not have been true, but I formed that opinion when she started taking titles and medal I didn't think she deserved! The tide turn before 2004 from my meager memory! Irina started beating her in '99 & 2000 at the GP Finals performing 3/3's MK was never comfortable performing; even that lame 3T/3T she utilized from early on! Surya Bonaly was using that combo after her Achilles surgery to avoid the 3Ltz/3T she was doing just a year before! MK was consistent, but far from daring! I know I was bored with her by '98 OG's in Nagano and woke up at 5 am or so in California to hear Tara had snatched that Gold medal from her after Nationals' coronation! I can still hear Lyra Angelica playing and nothing was more assured but for her to win that Medal! What a tangent; anyway, few were immune to the angelic laughing face of Irina and I cheered her to victory many a time to the disappointment of MK fans when I reveled in it on the message boards back then! :rolleyes: :respec: :yikes:
 

bardtoob

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By the end of the 2004-05 season, Kwan's career was over in the eye of the general public, she never seemed to (want to) adapt to the COP in the way Slútskaya and Cohen did, and face a lot of physical and mental problems in her forced path to Torino.

Isn't that great revisionist history!

1) Kwan's injury was a closely guarded secret until the fall of 2005.

2) Kwan was still the 2005 National Champion, beating Sasha Cohen although Cohen was the judges favorite.

3) Kwan was 3rd in both the SP and LP at 2005 Worlds, and only placed 4th because points from the qualifying round were included.

4) Kwan was attempting to increase her LP technical content after 2005 Worlds by attempting two 3Lz and two 3F in the spring 2005 Marshalls US Figure Skating Challenge LP ... where she beat Cohen.
 

bardtoob

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MK just wasn't likable IMO; so self-entitled! It may not have been true, but I formed that opinion when she started taking titles and medal I didn't think she deserved!

Michelle skated and the judges gave her medals ... Michelle did not knock skaters physically off their podium and grab the hardware :rofl:

When Michelle was too injured to compete in Torino the President of the Olympic Committee called her the most important athlete to the event.

After the 1998 Olympics Kwan was elected by all her fellow athletes to present the team jacket to the POTUS despite not winning, so some people close to her liked her.
 
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Fiero425

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2,302
Isn't that great revisionist history!

1) Kwan's injury was a closely guarded secret until the fall of 2005.

2) Kwan was still the 2005 National Champion, beating Sasha Cohen although Cohen was the judges favorite.

3) Kwan was 3rd in both the SP and LP at 2005 Worlds, and only placed 4th because points from the qualifying round were included.

4) Kwan was attempting to increase her LP technical content after 2005 Worlds by attempting two 3Lz and two 3F in the spring 2005 Marshalls US Figure Skating Challenge LP ... where she beat Cohen.

I remember that '05 Qualifying round with her on all fours looking as if she was trying to find a contact lens! I thought it was poetic justice since I thought she had extended her career unnecessarily, intimidating and lauding over the newbies of the next generation! She truly was done by '04, but she couldn't walk away from the adulation and $$$! :rolleyes: :kickass: :revenge:
 

bardtoob

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I thought it was poetic justice since I thought she had extended her career unnecessarily, intimidating and lauding over the newbies of the next generation! She truly was done by '04, but she couldn't walk away from the adulation and $$$! :rolleyes: :kickass: :revenge:

Yeah, she wanted the prize and did what was necessary. So what? That's how it works :rofl:

... And Kwan was 2004 National Champion over Sasha Cohen and 2004 World Bronze medalist behind Sasha Cohen despite starting her LP while a crazy man in a pink tutu was on the ice.

BTW, in 2000 the youth composing figure skating viewership was 7%. In 2006 the youth composing figure skating viewership was 11%. In 2016 the youth composing figure skating viewership was 6% ... So Kwan was apparently not hurting the sport too badly by staying up to 2006. Of course, Sasha could have inherited it all if she had beaten Fumie Suguri and Kimmie Meissner at 2006 Worlds ... http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...5/Research-and-Ratings/Viewership-trends.aspx
 
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montrealsurfa

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121
Kwan not the judges favorite at 2005 Nationals, ROTFL!!! Kwan got 4 perfect 6.0s for presentation for her piece of shit Bolero program which was about the worst Bolero ever, with a doubled 2nd triple lutz and only 5 triples. It was also bad for poor Kwan in a way as it was so over the top bogus and embarassing it all but de-legitimized all the past 6.0s she got at Nationals, including the very occasional half deserved ones (eg- 98 Nationals). She probably deserved to win that year since Cohen faltered even worse. Honestly I think if everyone was wearing paper bags that year Beatrisa Liang would have been the National Champion, and she came only 5th. Still pretty obvious who was the judges favorite that year, and it was not Cohen.
 

joubertelegant

Banned Member
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142
Sasha was the better skater. Had she been able to deliver under pressure she would have won the 2000, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2010 (due to Nagasu's < calls) nationals and had more National titles (6 to 5) than Kwan now. The 2002 Olympics, 2002 Worlds, 2003 Worlds, 2004 Worlds, 2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, and 2006 Worlds were all hers to win too. She had better jumps, spins, spirals, artistry, performing skills, and equal musicality and choreography than Kwan. Kwan though was the much better competitor which often overcomes who is the better skater.
 

Fiero425

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2,302
95 Trophee Lalique, 95-96 season Grand Prix final, almost every of the 96-97 season, 99 worlds (well only silver but still) 2000 Skate America, 2001 Skate America, 2001 Nationals, 2005 Nationals, you are quite correct.

I saw them all; believe me I know! That Silver at '99 the most egregious! She shouldn't have been in the running! :rolleyes: :judge:
 

ohashibiles

Banned Member
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169
I saw them all; believe me I know! That Silver at '99 the most egregious! She shouldn't have been in the running! :rolleyes: :judge:

Yeah she should have been about 9th in the short. In fairness she isnt the only big name who has been held up in the short program. It is an unfortunate trend in the short. It was probably the worst case though only since the womens shorts that year were so extremely well skated and her overall performance was very bad for her standards even aside the 1 huge mistake (poor quality/poorly done triple lutz combo even though clean, poorly executed double axel in air that she fell on, awful layback, simple footwork sequence which is unlike Kwan, and only a triple toe solo jump).
 

Fiero425

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Yeah she should have been about 9th in the short. In fairness she isnt the only big name who has been held up in the short program. It is an unfortunate trend in the short. It was probably the worst case though only since the womens shorts that year were so extremely well skated and her overall performance was very bad for her standards even aside the 1 huge mistake (poor quality/poorly done triple lutz combo even though clean, poorly executed double axel in air that she fell on, awful layback, simple footwork sequence which is unlike Kwan, and only a triple toe solo jump).

It was the reason I thought she should have retired earlier! In '99 after the Olympic season, she was barely holding on; actually going to a simpler 3T after footwork instead of the usual 3F! She even fell on the 3T at Japan Int'l which is little more than an elevated exhibition! Maybe she didn't even prepare! Surya skated better after her Achilles tendon surgery! :rolleyes:
 

AngieNikodinovLove

Frangi & Piazza & Paul & Hektor & Theo. Oh My! 😝
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I thought about this thread again and I say Kwan without a doubt.. simply because she had the whole package + THE MENTAL ability.... which is the rarest to have. (Michelle seemed to only tighten up twice... her Olys).

Sasha had the head space which prevented her from rising to the top. More flexibility, yes. Better positions in spins yes. But her head space prevented her from being the athlete that Michelle is.

For Kwan to go through a program error-free was common and expected (good technique) for Sasha to do was rare.
 

Fiero425

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2,302
I thought about this thread again and I say Kwan without a doubt.. simply because she had the whole package + THE MENTAL ability.... which is the rarest to have. (Michelle seemed to only tighten up twice... her Olys).

Sasha had the head space which prevented her from rising to the top. More flexibility, yes. Better positions in spins yes. But her head space prevented her from being the athlete that Michelle is.

For Kwan to go through a program error-free was common and expected (good technique) for Sasha to do was rare.

Kwan kept it simple and really never pushed herself unless absolutely necessary! It was Tara who pushed MK to do a 3F out of footwork, but after she left, went back to 3T! I think she performed a 3L/3Lp combo once in all the years she skated! The lamest combo was her doing the 3T/3T as if it was really something; then doubling it @ Nat'ls where Sasha all but beat her in 2000 leading after SP! They weren't going to send Sasha to Worlds as the Gold medalist anyway so it was "home cooking" involved that got her thru! :rolleyes: :COP: :revenge: :sarah1:
 

MIsty Blades/Skate Mom

Banned Member
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187
I'm a huge Kwan fan, but Sasha was a better skater and had the potential to surpass Kwan. Too bad Sasha never lived up to her potential. Kwan hit her potential and maybe surpassed it.
 

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