While we're doing these gymnastic polls ...

Who is the AA silver medalist that most should have won gold?

  • Nadia Comaneci (1980)

    Votes: 1 2.7%
  • Ekaterina Szabo (1984)

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • Daniela Silivas (1988)

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • Shannon Miller (1992)

    Votes: 19 51.4%
  • Shawn Johnson (2008)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Viktoria Komova (2012)

    Votes: 3 8.1%
  • Yang Tae-Young (2004 men)

    Votes: 8 21.6%
  • Maxi Gnauck

    Votes: 1 2.7%

  • Total voters
    37

bardtoob

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Ok what do you think? :argue:
I only learned this week that Maxi Gnauck tied for silver in the AA with Nadia in 1980, and Maxi was leading after Team Optionals while Nadia was 4th and Davydova was 5th.

I have not seen the whole Team Event and AA because much of it is blocked by the IOC on YouTube, but it is possible that Maxi had as much a claim as, let us say Miller, because as far as I can tell she hit every routine with consistently high scores and included a lot of difficulty.


 
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canbelto

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I chose Daniela Silivas because I've watched and rewatched her routines and I think she was the stronger gymnast. Shushonova was very strong but Silivas was just stronger IMO.
 

bardtoob

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Shannon Miller. Gutsu should have never competed. Does that count?
Maxi Gnauck was in 1st after Team Optionals, like Miller, in 1980. She still ended up with Silver.

Davydova was 5th after Team Optionals, like Tatiana Lysenko, in 1992. All you have to do is play with the 0.2 spread between her and Miller and Lysenko is 1992 Olympic AA, so there is no guarantee that removing Gutsu would benefit Miller.

This also does not account for bids by Bontas and Milosovici.

I think Boginskaya could have gotten Bronze in the AA in 1992 but she did not have the difficulty to win.
 

bardtoob

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pollyanna

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I picked Shannon Miller because I thought she deserved a 10.0 on her vault, but politics kept it at 9.975.

Much as I would like to say Daniela Silivas, one of my favorite gymnasts of all time, she took a huge step forward on her double twisting double on floor in team optionals, and back then, scores carried forward. So even though she outscored Shushunova during the AA, she couldn't win due to that mistake.

Obviously, Yang Tae-Young also deserved gold, but the South Korean federation did not file the protest about his parallel bars start value in time under FIG rules. I always thought the FIG weaseled out of a decision by suggesting Paul Hamm hand over the gold medal. The chicken shit FIG should have made a firm decision and stuck with it instead of leaving the decision to Hamm (and I am no Hamm fan).
 
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bardtoob

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Obviously, Yang Tae-Young also deserved gold, but the South Korean federation did not file the protest about his parallel bars start value in time under FIG rules. I always thought the FIG weaseled out of a decision by suggesting Paul Hamm hand over the gold medal. The chicken shit FIG should have made a firm decision and stuck with it instead of leaving the decision to Hamm (and I am no Hamm fan).
I agree. In a judged sport, the athlete is NEVER in control of their placement, only their performance. The whole purpose of the sanctioning body is to be responsible for judging the results.
 
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Rob

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I have watched Miller/Gutsu and Shusho/Silivas many times. At the time, I was totally team Miller and team Silivas. In 1992, if it really came down to the vault, Miller had the vault. But Gutsu had the difficulty throughout. Toss up.
In 1988, Silivas had an amazing AA final, but the mistake in team optionals did it. And in bars, Shusho had the step on the landing, but she had far more height in the release moves, Silivas just made it over the bar. All those little things. Toss up again.

So I voted for Yang Tae Young. Yes, the protest wasn't filed in time, but the judges should have gotten it right. Plus, Hamm was not scored harshly enough for that vault mess. Should have been in the 8s. If the judges table were not there, he might have fallen off the podium. Tim Daggett immediately said you can't win the Olympic AA with a fall like that. I think he should have been right. In fact, I'd vote for Kim Dae Eun over Hamm since the Yang protest wasn't filed in time.
 
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floskate

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Shannon Miller for me. Gutsu actually being in the AA and FX scoring aside, that vault by Miller was a 10.00 and would have given her the AA if it had been scored correctly. Gutsu's first FTY scored way too high given her form issues and shuffle back on landing so when she did stick the second there was nowhere else to go. Stupid.
 

pollyanna

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So I voted for Yang Tae Young. Yes, the protest wasn't filed in time, but the judges should have gotten it right. Plus, Hamm was not scored harshly enough for that vault mess. Should have been in the 8s. If the judges table were not there, he might have fallen off the podium. Tim Daggett immediately said you can't win the Olympic AA with a fall like that. I think he should have been right. In fact, I'd vote for Kim Dae Eun over Hamm since the Yang protest wasn't filed in time.
Thank you Rob, I had completely forgotten about Hamm's crappy vault. All in all, 2004 men's AA was as bad a result as the women's in 2000 with the vault fiasco, cheating Chinese, and Raducan's cold medicine.
 

canbelto

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I do think that if we were doing Gutsu vs. Miller by today's CoP the competition would not have been so close. Gutsu's D score would have been much higher than Miller's.
 

bardtoob

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I do think that if we were doing Gutsu vs. Miller by today's CoP the competition would not have been so close. Gutsu's D score would have been much higher than Miller's.
That's gymnastics for "under the IJS the competition ..." :D
 

FiveRinger

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I do think that if we were doing Gutsu vs. Miller by today's CoP the competition would not have been so close. Gutsu's D score would have been much higher than Miller's.
That's true. But Gutsu always had form issues. And the judges always ignored it. It always shocked me that she came up thru the Soviet system and that was never dealt with. Gymnastics is supposed to be about more than just doing the tricks.

Plus the scoring towards the end of the quad was just ridiculous. The thousandths of points separating was just nuts. I always thought that the judges were just throwing up numbers just for sh*ts and giggles at that point.
 

bardtoob

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That's true. But Gutsu always had form issues. And the judges always ignored it. It always shocked me that she came up thru the Soviet system and that was never dealt with. Gymnastics is supposed to be about more than just doing the tricks.
It's a losing battle to complain about Gutsu's form and typically enough to complain about her execution.

Even with sacrificing another gymnasts and the new life rule to save her from falling from the beam in Team Optionals, she still stumbled and did not stick her landings in the AA floor and AA vault.

Yes, she could have been competitive if there was no cap on difficulty, but there was a cap on difficulty, primarily so gymnastics was not just acrobatics.
 
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Weve3

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Gymnastics is supposed to be about more than just doing the tricks.
Yes, thank you! 👏

I appreciate the big tricks, but just like in figure skating, the artistry is what separates it from becoming just another circus act.

I am a fan of balletic gymnastics, of the gymnast that can make the observer feel like they can do the exercise because it appears so effortless and light. Still, the trend, especially with the AA competition, and since Nastia, is all about the big trick(s). E.g., Simone, who is terrific, btw, but whose gymnastics are pure TNT.

I always thought that the judges were just throwing up numbers just for sh*ts and giggles at that point.
:lol: Or making deals in smoke-filled rooms.
 

floskate

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Yes, thank you! 👏

I appreciate the big tricks, but just like in figure skating, the artistry is what separates it from becoming just another circus act.

I am a fan of balletic gymnastics, of the gymnast that can make the observer feel like they can do the exercise because it appears so effortless and light. Still, the trend, especially with the AA competition, and since Nastia, is all about the big trick(s). E.g., Simone, who is terrific, btw, but whose gymnastics are pure TNT.

:lol: Or making deals in smoke-filled rooms.
I've been watching a lot of 60's and 70's gymnastics lately and on the whole it's way more appealing than the sport is today. I love FX with a live pianist; there is a musical relationship that develops and it really helps the gymnasts with innate musicality give flight to their artistry. The choreography was inventive and coherent and tumbles were just a part of the choreographic whole. Bars was beautiful and so intricate when the bars are so much closer together. Beam was about beauty and line. Vault is perhaps the one apparatus that is underwhelming compared to today but if I have to choose between the likes of 60's greats like Caslavska and Kuchinskaya on FX or Jade Carey and her big tumbles with zero choreo and expression, I'll take the 1960's any day of the week.
 

FiveRinger

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I've been watching a lot of 60's and 70's gymnastics lately and on the whole it's way more appealing than the sport is today. I love FX with a live pianist; there is a musical relationship that develops and it really helps the gymnasts with innate musicality give flight to their artistry. The choreography was inventive and coherent and tumbles were just a part of the choreographic whole. Bars was beautiful and so intricate when the bars are so much closer together. Beam was about beauty and line. Vault is perhaps the one apparatus that is underwhelming compared to today but if I have to choose between the likes of 60's greats like Caslavska and Kuchinskaya on FX or Jade Carey and her big tumbles with zero choreo and expression, I'll take the 1960's any day of the week.
I totally agree with you. I miss the compulsories so much. The moves were considered "simple" (not), but they were so beautiful to watch because of the simplicity and the various interpretations of the same exercises.

Also, @floskate a huge thank you for posting that 1980 Moscow coverage. You have an impressive library of artistic sports' video. YouTube videos are limited. I appreciate anyone who is able to post clips from that competition in particular because it's so rare. I remember seeing clips of Nadia in 1976, but I won't say watched the actual competition since I was only 4 at the time. Thank you for sharing.
 

mjb52

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re: the compulsories - this is actually one reason I enjoy the Russian test skates - it's fun and refreshing to see the skaters do their programs in workout clothing, usually black. I love costumes and make-up too but you get a different perspective on the sport from the test skates.
 

gk_891

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I'm not sold on the argument that Miller should have won the 1992 Olympic AA competition. While she deserved a 10 on the vault and Gutsu was overscored on FX, I thought Miller was overscored on UB (low release moves caught with bent arms and a dismount that hugged the high bar), BB (can't believe she scored higher than Gutsu with lesser difficulty and 2 noticeable wobbles), and FX (lower difficulty and not great amplitude on her tumbling runs, not to mention horribly prissy dancing).
 

bardtoob

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I'm not sold on the argument that Miller should have won the 1992 Olympic AA competition. While she deserved a 10 on the vault and Gutsu was overscored on FX, I thought Miller was overscored on UB (low release moves caught with bent arms and a dismount that hugged the high bar), BB (can't believe she scored higher than Gutsu with lesser difficulty and 2 noticeable wobbles), and FX (lower difficulty and not great amplitude on her tumbling runs, not to mention horribly prissy dancing).
😎

Your comments are extremely inconsistent because Miller was prissy on EVERYTHING :D

☀🦄🌈

The Actual Results were:
PositionGymnastVUBBeamFloorTotal
19.9509.9509.9129.92539.737
29.9759.9259.9259.90039.725


After rewatching the footage, I would have scored it:
PositionGymnastVUBBeamFloorTotal
29.9509.9509.9259.90039.725
110.0009.9259.9009.92539.750

In the end, it still comes down to the vault and floor.
 
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Loves_Shizuka

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Miller should have got a 10 for that vault, but I really never liked her on FX, even in 1992. Mind you, I really didn't like Gutsu's FX either. I'm not sure who I'd give it to overall.
 

Loves_Shizuka

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So here's a question and a "What if?" about the 1992 AA.

Lysenko is one of my all-time faves. Let's say she gets her EF score on beam in the AA - 9.975. And lets say she doesn't mess up her DLO on FX, doesn't lose a 0.1 and scores a 9.9, a reasonable and doable score for her on that, in line with the way FX was being scored.

Add those two scores to her 9.962 on vault and 9.900 on UB = 39.737 :cheer:

EXACTLY what Gutsu got to win gold. Would there have a been a tie/joint gold as there were in the EF or was there a tiebreaker for the AA?

(I appreciate this is a very convenient "what if" that doesn't change anyone else's scores, but please indulge me as a poor Lysenko fan ;) )
 
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Erin

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Tiebreakers weren’t around until 1997 in gymnastics, so yes, Lysenko would have tied Gutsu. I loved Lysenko too, so that would have been nice to see.

I thought both Gutsu and Miller were overmarked on various events in the 1992 AA, so it is really hard to say who should have won overall. All I can think of when I watch Gutsu are flexed feet, although I did appreciate her difficulty.
 
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gk_891

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4,203
😎

Your comments are extremely inconsistent because Miller was prissy on EVERYTHING :D

☀🦄🌈

The Actual Results were:
PositionGymnastVUBBeamFloorTotal
19.9509.9509.9129.92539.737
29.9759.9259.9259.90039.725


After rewatching the footage, I would have scored it:
PositionGymnastVUBBeamFloorTotal
29.9509.9509.9259.90039.725
110.0009.9259.9009.92539.750

In the end, it still comes down to the vault and floor.
I personally think your scores for Miller on UB and FX are too high. On UB, her release moves had poor height and she caught both of them with bent arms. And her dismount hugged the high bar whereas Gutsu took her dismount way above the bar (and Gutsu's swing was faster and much more aggressive). On floor, Miller took a big step back on her double pike on floor and her tumbling didn't have great amplitude, nor was she throwing great difficulty. And artistically, all I saw was frantically prissy arm-waving.

Mind you, I also hated Gutsu's floor routine was a passion. I remember reading once somewhere that she danced like a traffic cop.
 
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gk_891

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So here's a question and a "What if?" about the 1992 AA.

Lysenko is one of my all-time faves. Let's say she gets her EF score on beam in the AA - 9.975. And lets say she doesn't mess up her DLO on FX, doesn't lose a 0.1 and scores a 9.9, a reasonable and doable score for her on that, in line with the way FX was being scored.

Add those two scores to her 9.962 on vault and 9.900 on UB = 39.737 :cheer:

EXACTLY what Gutsu got to win gold. Would there have a been a tie/joint gold as there were in the EF or was there a tiebreaker for the AA?

(I appreciate this is a very convenient "what if" that doesn't change anyone else's scores, but please indulge me as a poor Lysenko fan ;) )
I would've preferred it if Lysenko won the AA instead of either Gutsu or Miller. But Lysenko was always going to mess up her double layout. She clearly was not comfortable with it. I wish she kept her double Arabian instead.
 

gk_891

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I only learned this week that Maxi Gnauck tied for silver in the AA with Nadia in 1980, and Maxi was leading after Team Optionals while Nadia was 4th and Davydova was 5th.

I have not seen the whole Team Event and AA because much of it is blocked by the IOC on YouTube, but it is possible that Maxi had as much a claim as, let us say Miller, because as far as I can tell she hit every routine with consistently high scores and included a lot of difficulty.


Maxi's problem was her AA vault. She put in a very weak effort on vault. Otherwise, she would have easily won the AA gold. I remember watching her vault and being worried that she was going to hit the horse while in mid-air. She didn't get great push or bump off of the horse.
 

VGThuy

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32,173
I loved Miller circa 1992-1993, but I try to be objective. Miller should have won in 1992 no questions for me because all the criticisms about Miller don’t make up for Gutsu’s floor and vault over scoring. And I love Miller’s “prissy” dancing (that floor was even better at 1993 Worlds) but even if I didn’t, it should have no real bearing on the score. Only if there was a true lack of taste or attempt of musical interpretation.

That said, that whole scoring system in 1992 made no sense to me. I bet everyone in contention had 10.0 start values across the board even if some were doing more difficult routines than others (like how some A-pluses are better than others). So it seemed like the judges took it upon themselves to underscore gymnasts with easier 10.00 routines while giving others with more difficult 10.00 more leniency. Of course that is if you were a top 3-4 country. If a Soviet cowboyed a double tuck it was considered perfect form. If a non-top country gymnast did it, deduction city. That scoring system made no sense and the only difference between a 9.50 and a 9.37 or even a 9.25 or a 9.12 is what country you were from and if you had enough judges that wanted you to win. Speaking of, Nellie Kim totally cheated and took advantage of the low score drop system for Silivas’ vault. She threw an outrageously low score on vault to guarantee some other judge’s low score would count without objectively scoring her vault correctly herself.
 

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