Which beloved or highly regarded skaters do you personally NOT love or highly regard??

misskarne

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Can someone refresh my memory?
After he completely fcuked up his SP in the team event: "It's a positive step. It's just a warm up!"

Unfriendly reminder that Abbott is considered an Olympic medallist despite his total lack of contribution.
 

VenusH.

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Zagitova. I did not really like her programs during Olympics and they were actually her best. The Carmen and POTO were messy. This season's program... meh. Cluttered with pointless transitions as ever. There is this transition that looks like she was smelling/checking out her knee. Plus, it seems her perfectionism is doing her in. She makes a mistake and you can see that she is trying to keep it together for the rest of program.

Oksana Baiul. People gush over her, but back in the day I liked Surya, because Surya was exotic firecracker with personality for days... Oksana was some a skater somebody created after watching too much Disney skating movies. Never did it for me. Her FS on Olympics was too goofy for me... and gawd, looking back at the costume... it was awful. I get she was poor... but... just get a simple costume rather one that looks you sewn random scraps and discount beads on it. Her pro career had lots of messy things about it.

Bradie Tennel. She is like a nice high quality vanilla. But the problem is... I don't like vanilla. Can't stand it even. Give me fruits and spices.

Slutskaya. I admire her longevity, but I disliked her overall aesthetics. The costumes, the "i go to men's barber cause it's cheaper" haircut, the programs.

Eteri skaters in general. Arm flailing, blade grabs, leg kicks and back jerking jumps and often age inappropriate programs... They sure are talented girls, but the packaging makes them hard to enjoy, even if it grabs all points there are to grab.
 

Yazmeen

Shake it then, shake it now, shake it forever
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Can someone refresh my memory?
Here's the full story: a reporter ticked him off, and he had a complete meltdown. And @misskarne is correct, he had the gall to essentially dismiss his lousy performance in the team event as a "warm-up" for the individual event, which he also 'effed up royally. He was the one US skater in the Sochi team event who did nothing to earn his bronze medal; thankfully, the rest of the team carried him onto the podium.

 
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olympic

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I think it is fairer to look back at these skaters AFTER they have retired so that our judgment are not clouded by hype created by the Federation, by fans and by the skaters and their teams, or by our own fandom over them or their competitors, or by some desire to maintain / gain another spot for Worlds / Olympics for your country.

So the question really is, are you changing your minds as time goes by because you have become impartial, or because you have become more educated about the sport.
My personal opinions about skaters change over time probably because of dying hoopla. Katarina Witt is my biggest example:

In the 80s when I was a teen, height of the Cold War, she stood between the good ole USA and OGMs, plus a few World titles. It was easy in my 'patriotic' mind to portray her as the sports villain. U.S. Coverage back in the 80s fed into the East v. West or us v. them more than it does now. But, when I watched the ESPN documentary several years ago on her skating career that included Jutta Mueller an Gaby Seyfert, it moved me because I had no idea how much pressure she was under at Calgary due to the deal Mueller struck w/ the GDR authorities: You can leave and make money in the West, BUT you have to win in Calgary. That is incredible pressure, a lot more than just skating in the Olympics against big competition. She won and I realized how much admiration I have for that.

Ironically, she was my 'love to hate' skater back in her competitive days, including her return in the 90s (how I wished Kiehlmann and her quirky programs w/ a 3F would have been the 2nd German lady in Lillehamer!) but not anymore and I can't say that she was a highly regarded skater that makes me go meh.

Opinions about who is overrated change for a variety of reasons, I suppose.
 

Brenda_Bottems

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254
You used the word "seasoned." Gross.
Settle down,Karen.

Millennials: am I using the slang correctly?

In my time,dear, there was a term for a woman with no curves: the old maid.

And while this never applies to me,I take no offense at being referred to as "seasoned".

Come to think of it, I have been labeled as "spicy" on several different occasions.

-BB
 

Lanie

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6,243
Michelle Kwan :shuffle:

Throw tomatoes, okay...

I enjoyed Plushenko up to 2006, then it was so old. The flailing. The sloppiness. Same with Slutskaya.

I never warmed to Yuna either, I never understood the fuss.
 

starrynight

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And @misskarne is correct, he had the gall to essentially dismiss his lousy performance in the team event as a "warm-up" for the individual event,
This is why I want the team event to happen after the individual event.

It's just used as a warm up and a test run. And it gives skaters from top feds the advantage of test running programs in front of Olympic judges that other skaters don't have. And then there's the issue of skaters skipping it to prepare for the main individual. I just think it would be way more interesting to have it come second.
 

starrynight

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My personal opinions about skaters change over time probably because of dying hoopla. Katarina Witt is my biggest example:

In the 80s when I was a teen, height of the Cold War, she stood between the good ole USA and OGMs, plus a few World titles. It was easy in my 'patriotic' mind to portray her as the sports villain. U.S. Coverage back in the 80s fed into the East v. West or us v. them more than it does now. But, when I watched the ESPN documentary several years ago on her skating career that included Jutta Mueller an Gaby Seyfert, it moved me because I had no idea how much pressure she was under at Calgary due to the deal Mueller struck w/ the GDR authorities: You can leave and make money in the West, BUT you have to win in Calgary. That is incredible pressure, a lot more than just skating in the Olympics against big competition. She won and I realized how much admiration I have for that.

Ironically, she was my 'love to hate' skater back in her competitive days, including her return in the 90s (how I wished Kiehlmann and her quirky programs w/ a 3F would have been the 2nd German lady in Lillehamer!) but not anymore and I can't say that she was a highly regarded skater that makes me go meh.

Opinions about who is overrated change for a variety of reasons, I suppose.
Fascinating post. It is very true that rivalries affect ones views of skaters - and then after it has all settled down, you can go back and appreciate the skaters in a different light.

All this talk of Abbott and Brown makes me think of another skater I never understood but feel bad feeling this way about: Joshua Farris. When everyone on FSU was oohing and awwing over him with his Schindler's List program and saying he was a true artist compared to a choreographed one like Jason Brown, I was confused. I thought it was generic.
The 'Give Me Love' SP by Josh was a masterpiece of using lyric music and making a competitive program with it. Also he was very good looking :lol: . I'm just sad that he never had an opportunity to fully explore his potential in the sport.
 
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olympic

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Fascinating post. It is very true that rivalries affect ones views of skaters - and then after it has all settled down, you can go back and appreciate the skaters in a different light.



The 'Give Me Love' SP by Josh was a masterpiece of using lyric music and making a competitive program with it. Also he was very good looking :lol: . I'm just sad that he never had an opportunity to fully explore his potential in the sport.
Another skater that elicited a not-so-positive response from me but towards whom I feel differently now is Slutskaya. It had nothing to do with her skating skills, just the fact that she was Kwan's chief rival and I was a Kwaniac back then (still like her but not a fanatic)
 

starrynight

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My views:

- Eteri Girls - very interesting situation, as I think it's likely due to 'rona they will actually not be doing any (or many) major international competitions until they are all 17. Which is actually past the use by date of a typical Eteri girl. I am very interested to see if they will show the grit to endure, or if we are just going to see another 15 year old wipe them away. I may well change my opinions.

- Hanyu - I think he's brilliant, but he has to get some new programs. I consider him to be really artistic and I think he needs to make the most of the remainder of his competitive career by getting a bigger body of work out there.

- Papadakis/Cizeron - again talent undeniable. But they need to step outside of their box. It kind of amuses me that they are doing the usual thing that so many skaters do of staying in their wheelhouse, but are painting it as an act of grand artistry. lol Like have the guts to admit you have a formula that works that you are sticking to.

- Any team that dresses as clowns

- As for the Shibs, they went up in my estimation when Marina said they were the only team she's had that have come to her with really clear proposals on programs, music and choreography. Interesting.

- Gadbois - I think for a while there it was presumed that centre had magical powers. But like all of ice dance trends, I think things have come back down to earth and it's accepted that it, like many centres, works well for some and not others.
 

Peepsquick

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382
My views:

- Hanyu - I think he's brilliant, but he has to get some new programs. I consider him to be really artistic and I think he needs to make the most of the remainder of his competitive career by getting a bigger body of work out there.

- Papadakis/Cizeron - again talent undeniable. But they need to step outside of their box. It kind of amuses me that they are doing the usual thing that so many skaters do of staying in their wheelhouse, but are painting it as an act of grand artistry. lol Like have the guts to admit you have a formula that works that you are sticking to.
-Hanyu: well, it is way easier to work on developing your artistry and creating new pieces when your body is not wrecked by an overload of quads!

- P/C: If you consider Ice Dance as a sport (which imo it is alongside artistry), then your first goal is to win. If you are successful in finding and honing your strengths to the point of winning, then you have attained your goal! If you consider Ice Dance to be more of an art, then you let the artists explore their vision. No artist jumps from style to style.

I'd say, let skaters of that level decide who they want to be and what they can do. They work hard enough to get there and stay there. I know I enjoy this level of performance.

And I know ...off topic!
 

Lemonade20

Active Member
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194
This is why I want the team event to happen after the individual event.

It's just used as a warm up and a test run. And it gives skaters from top feds the advantage of test running programs in front of Olympic judges that other skaters don't have. And then there's the issue of skaters skipping it to prepare for the main individual. I just think it would be way more interesting to have it come second.
Instead of seeing the team events as individuals skating their programs, it would be fun to see more of a “Stars On Ice” style group number. Make it 5-10 minutes long per country and something fresh for us to enjoy.
 

trouble77

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Why are you going out of topic? There are other threads to make predictions and analysis of a skater's performance. Can't we just stay on topic?
 

starrynight

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-Hanyu: well, it is way easier to work on developing your artistry and creating new pieces when your body is not wrecked by an overload of quads!

- P/C: If you consider Ice Dance as a sport (which imo it is alongside artistry), then your first goal is to win. If you are successful in finding and honing your strengths to the point of winning, then you have attained your goal! If you consider Ice Dance to be more of an art, then you let the artists explore their vision. No artist jumps from style to style.
With Hanyu I hope that he has the opportunity to heal up now that 'rona has reduced his workload.

As for the whole ~~high art~~ thing ... you know I do really think that skaters give themselves too much credit for creating about 7 minutes of program every 12 months which essentially consist of snippets of choreography in between elements.

They are performers, but performers like ballet dancers, backup dancers, pop singers etc do need to show range to be considered complete entertainers. I don't know if I can keep a straight face when skaters pretend they are Picasso or Monet or something.

Sure, if skaters have a formula that works, fine. But the whole deeply believing themselves to be achingly serious artists thing is a bit much. For me, the benchmark as skaters as true performers is how much effort they choose to put into their exhibitions where they know they don't get marked for it.
 

Peepsquick

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With Hanyu I hope that he has the opportunity to heal up now that 'rona has reduced his workload.

As for the whole ~~high art~~ thing ... you know I do really think that skaters give themselves too much credit for creating about 7 minutes of program every 12 months which essentially consist of snippets of choreography in between elements.

They are performers, but performers like ballet dancers, backup dancers, pop singers etc do need to show range to be considered complete entertainers. I don't know if I can keep a straight face when skaters pretend they are Picasso or Monet or something.

Sure, if skaters have a formula that works, fine. But the whole deeply believing themselves to be achingly serious artists thing is a bit much. For me, the benchmark as skaters as true performers is how much effort they choose to put into their exhibitions where they know they don't get marked for it.
Last comment on the subject (I promise!):The hype doesn't come from them. They are very down-to-earth, humble people. Check it out!
 

Tony Wheeler

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This has of course turned into an I like V/M so I'll come up with ridiculous stuff to say about P/C and I like P/C so I can never ever like the Canadians thread.

If a style works for a team such as P/C and they want to explore, what's the problem? Reading their minds or any other skater/teams mind is ridiculous. One-note free dances from P/C? Well maybe similar. But it's not as if the RDs have shown a lack of diversity and that they 'aren't capable' as some of you are trying your hardest to convey. I didn't like quite a bit of what V/M put out but it was because of the themes of the programs, not because I was hellbent on convincing myself P/C were better. I didn't love Moulin Rouge but I don't have any problem with their Olympic win.

Just flat-out say you like one team and therefore deep in your heart you can't like the other, because that's a lot of what I'm reading.
 

starrynight

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Just flat-out say you like one team and therefore deep in your heart you can't like the other, because that's a lot of what I'm reading.
If this is directed at me, I'm not an uber of V/M. I would say they have shown greater performance range. But I wouldn't describe them as ~high art~.

I'm not talking about skating talent here. Both teams phenomal talents. The thread is about being over-rated - and it's this label of 'high art' and 'revolutionising the sport' that gets thrown around to influence judges etc that I'm talking about.

Maybe some fans of V/M would have tried to paint the picture of high art. But I think it was sort of clear that their coaches mostly always chose their programs, image and did the choreography. Again this whole 'art' thing is different to being a varied and exciting performer -- and V/M certainly were.

I think someone here described them as 'aggressively competitive' - and I think in retrospect that is correct. The fact they retired from all forms of skating a little while after getting that gold shows that they aren't say a Lambiel or a Browning or Gordeeva etc who will be skating their whole lives to create new things.

I think I protest the aura of 'high art dripping with genius' around P/C. I just think it's a bit much for ice skating. I think a skater needs to prove that once there aren't any medals they are still interested in creating new things to satisfy me they are actually in it for 'the art'.
 
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Peepsquick

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382
This has of course turned into an I like V/M so I'll come up with ridiculous stuff to say about P/C and I like P/C so I can never ever like the Canadians thread.

If a style works for a team such as P/C and they want to explore, what's the problem? Reading their minds or any other skater/teams mind is ridiculous. One-note free dances from P/C? Well maybe similar. But it's not as if the RDs have shown a lack of diversity and that they 'aren't capable' as some of you are trying your hardest to convey. I didn't like quite a bit of what V/M put out but it was because of the themes of the programs, not because I was hellbent on convincing myself P/C were better. I didn't love Moulin Rouge but I don't have any problem with their Olympic win.

Just flat-out say you like one team and therefore deep in your heart you can't like the other, because that's a lot of what I'm reading.
Sorry, it is not meant for me as a V/M vs P/C rant ... I just never got enthused by V/M's style of work. Nothing bad to say about them as people.
I admit that I get a bit tired of hearing P/C described as pretentious or full of themselves. I thought this thread was about liking a style or not, not about fantasizing about the skater's character.
 

Tony Wheeler

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I mean everyone is entitled to feel skaters are overmarked/overhyped - that’s what the thread is for 😆 and my little rant doesn’t pertain to the last two posts. It just often seems to go back to trying to pull out all of these details that really don’t exist to somehow make an argument stronger when what really can be said is that you simply don’t care for the style, etc.
 

starrynight

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I don't think one can get a full picture of a skater's career until it's concluded and the dust has settled.

And then look at it after the hype has died down.

What P/C do after they get the gold in 2022 will be a key piece of the puzzle in respect of their own story and the hype around them. Their story is still evolving.
 

Laney

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I think this thread is about skaters to never feel connected, you never "got", even if you know they are good, great, Champions.. I take V/M as an example. When they rised on the scene I didn't had any ice dancers I was a big fan about. I had heard about V/M and they were praised as THE next big thing and I was looking forward to see them and was free to make them my new favourite couple. But it just never "clicked". I don't know why. I liked their Mahler FD and I see they're great, it just doesn't reach my soul. That happens when P/C arrived. Many people don't like them. It's just like in real live: you just can't like everybody and you never know when you will fall in love and with whom. But it's not I didn't like V/M because I love P/C. The most Part of the aera of V/M I just didn't had any favourite couple. D/W or V/M - I didn't care...
 

Bunny Hop

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I haven't seen anyone list Daisuke Takahashi ( I guess everyone likes him. :))
I can fix that, as Takahashi would be top of my list. I don't dispute his achievements, his skating just didn't do anything for me (with the exception of Blues for Klook).

Also Lipnitskaia and Plushenko. After seeing Plushenko live at Champions on Ice I finally understood his charisma, but it still didn't make me like his skating.
 

starrynight

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Lipnitskaya made such an impact with the once every four years audience because of how insanely bendy she was.
 

Bigbird

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P/C has to be careful. Their talent is undeniable but the judges want to give it up to teams that make judging easier with simpler more straight forward programs. When they've stepped too far out of the box they've been smashed. So better for them to stay within their wheelhouse while trying to be interesting if that makes sense.

It's a tricky balance.

Their class is just undeniable especially when watching their galas. No one comes close.
 

nuge

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Hubbell/Donohue
Bobrova/Soloviev
Duchesnays all tricks
Maria Butraskaya
Shibs
Michelle Kwan
Plushenko all flailing arms
Polish ICE DANCE COUPLE TOP 10 :confused:
 

Immortelle

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Great thread. Personally I find the majority of Gadbois teams a bit dull, with a few exceptions (shout out to F/G and FB/S). Even though Guillaume Cizeron is an exceptional skater, I don’t feel any strong bond with P/C. But that’s probably because overall I prefer the Russian style of ice dance and those teams coached by Russian coaches.

I have fewer opinions about the other disciplines because I feel they’re less subjective than ice dance.
Love the different points of view though, this thread has really got me thinking... :)
 

essence_of_soy

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I was never a fan of Nancy Kerrigan, her torturous interviews, or the media hype comparing her to Katarina Witt and Katherine Hepburn.

Strangely enough though, I did enjoy watching her practice sessions. She was so much more limber and relaxed, not stiff and stilted like she skated in competition.

Emanuel Sandhu also got my gears grinding. He was definitely entertaining, but oh boy, the "I'm so much better than everyone else" attitude was such a turn-off. I guess he is an example of raw talent only getting an athlete so far. At the top level, consistency is all about putting in the training time as well.
 
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olympic

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I can fix that, as Takahashi would be top of my list. I don't dispute his achievements, his skating just didn't do anything for me (with the exception of Blues for Klook).

Also Lipnitskaia and Plushenko. After seeing Plushenko live at Champions on Ice I finally understood his charisma, but it still didn't make me like his skating.
That is interesting. I'm not sure how much of a legend Takahashi is in an international sense. He is a world champion, but his profile amongst other big skaters seems driven by a fan base and FSU elites, not necessarily by podiums or with a status as a world beater. I also never caught the swoon by many on here over his skating. He had a sense for overall performance, choreography and style but wasn't really outstanding in the tech department when compared against others at the top. I would have to rewatch programs so maybe he had amazing transitions, but his jumps were not what I would classify as amazing in and of themselves.

At his peak in 2010, I know certain posters here were beside themselves with Lysacek's OGM, and for a brief time, Takahashi was elevated to wuz robbed of an OGM by some posters, but I think a lot of that had to do with an attitude of 'Lysacek didn't deserve the title, but we despise Plushenko equally, and Lambiel is injured, so Takahashi wuz robbed'.
 

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