"Vintage" twizzle action in singles skating

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I just found this pearl:

https://youtu.be/9SWtbnvekd8?t=143

It makes me wonder about the element itself, how back in history can we trace it? And what about becoming a mandatory element in singles' skating? Will it bring us jewels sort of like a change-of-foot-and-direction Biellmann twizzles?

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Cool! That seems to somehow be a variation of the barrel roll or a mixture of the barrel roll and twizzles.

Here's a true barrel roll performed by Scott Williams in an exhibition performance to Truly Madly Deeply, by Savage Garden. And the choreo is by the amazing and wonderful Brian Wright. Scott executes a brilliant barrel roll in perfect expression of the music starting at about 3:10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8VYrbBj_MY

And wow, this freestyle skating tutorial demonstrates a 'triangle' or apparently freestyle variation of a 'barrel roll'! It's not the barrel roll as it originated, but more like a hip hop dance move. Still, this is fascinating. It would be cool if this growing style of 'extreme skating' ever becomes officially recognized. The skates they wear are more like roller blades on ice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdTV3Vp451Q

 

[barbk]

Those barrel rolls by Scott Williams are amazing. I would love to see some current skaters incorporate them into a routine. Thanks for posting that link!

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Yes, it would be cool @barbk. Scott W is certainly an expert at performing barrel rolls. I wonder whether they are allowed for in competition under current rules. Perhaps, but with IJS, skaters have so much they must get in that the freedom to be unique and creative is much less free and available to them in terms of time.

 

[bardtoob]

I wonder what Vaness Riley would have thought of Fadeev's Technical Program from that year . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN2_WuoEJ9w

It is easy to assess his fitness.

 

[tony]

I wonder what Vaness Riley would have thought of Fadeev's Technical Program from that year . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN2_WuoEJ9w

It is easy to assess his fitness.

She knows. He had the same costume in 1989 for his short program!

 

[antmanb]

I don't think what Scott Williams does is a barrel roll, barrel rolls involve doing a Mohawk and cross in front, in the opposite direction from the circle you are skating it on.

 

[aftershocks]

I wonder what Vaness Riley would have thought of Fadeev's Technical Program from that year . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN2_WuoEJ9w

It is easy to assess his fitness.

Wowza, I love the amazing hip action in the green body suit with the colorful beaded bird on the back! And Fadeev sure seems to love that waist high sit-spin twizzle. It should be called 'the Fadeev', and ice dancers need to perform it for twizzle variation!

 

[alchemy void]

Damn, that Fadeev costume is mesmerizing.

 

[aftershocks]

I don't think what Scott Williams does is a barrel roll, barrel rolls involve doing a Mohawk and cross in front, in the opposite direction from the circle you are skating it on.

As I said, it looks like the move you are talking about is named 'triangle,' or 'barrel roll,' but what Scott W was known for performing (in previously linked video @3:10) are also called 'barrel rolls'.

Scott Williams specifically references the move as "barrel rolls" in this 2003 Goldenskate interview:
http://www.goldenskate.com/2003/01/scott-williams-online-interview/
Scott: "I love doing barrel rolls because it combines spinning with speed across the ice."

It's interesting that Scott had this to say about the new judging system which was in its infant stages at that time:
Scott: "The new system is disturbing to me as I think skating is more than the sum of its parts. I don’t feel the scoring system was as much of a problem as the system of judge selection and the lack of skater participation in the governing bodies."

Robert Wagenhoffer was also known for performing barrel rolls. He executes modified barrel rolls at 028: in the below video. Toward the end of this performance, he performs not only a back flip, but also a patented 'Wagenhoffer side flip!' Wow, he was very creative and innovative:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66a84LqSbX0

I believe the famous skating entertainment duo of Frick & Frack may have been responsible for innovating the barrel rolls as later performed by Robert Wagenhoffer and Scott Williams. Perhaps @floskate and/or @N_Halifax know more and might enlighten us further.

 

[aliceanne]

I've heard what Scott was doing referred to as piston rolls.

In this video at 2:34 Petkevich refers to it that way, and says the move was first done by Ronnie Robertson.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlzayLplRdM

Here is Robertson's version at 2:08.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BHJ61W579DY

 

[SkateGuard]

I believe the famous skating entertainment duo of Frick & Frack may have been responsible for innovating the barrel rolls as later performed by Robert Wagenhoffer and Scott Williams. Perhaps @floskate and/or @N_Halifax know more and might enlighten us further.

I've heard the same move referred to as both barrel and piston rolls. As for who performed it first, I couldn't tell you... In my experience, every time something is labelled as a 'first', there's an example of someone performing the same jump/spin/lift etc. earlier so it's really important to be extremely careful with making these kinds of claims.

 

[Tinami Amori]

some interesting spins/moves @ 0:35 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgwlS1ho87I

 

[aftershocks]

I've heard what Scott was doing referred to as piston rolls.

In this video at 2:34 Petkevich refers to it that way, and says the move was first done by Ronnie Robertson.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RlzayLplRdM

Here is Robertson's version at 2:08.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BHJ61W579DY

Thanks for sharing. Here's a video of Ronnie Robertson skating to Pagliacci (and introduced by Tab Hunter, who also skated before becoming an actor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDRjoHk2PQc

In this silent version of 1956 World championships, Robertson is dressed like a waiter* performing a series of jump elements and spins. At 1:26 Robertson executes what looks like a style variation of barrel rolls/piston rolls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oF9x3SvU85U
*I think it was Dick Button who made looking like a waiter, a trend on the ice

Those barrel rolls by Scott Williams are amazing. I would love to see some current skaters incorporate them into a routine. Thanks for posting that link!

I love Scott Williams. Here he is skating to Nirvana's Smells Like Teen Spirit (ahead of his time with the creative choice of music and moves). The barrel rolls/piston rolls show up around 3:50.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1D5dE7Rzvc

 

[aftershocks]

some interesting spins/moves @ 0:35 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgwlS1ho87I

Oooh, that opening pair move (whiplash death spiral) looks cool, somewhat similar to the 'exhibition only' head banger move that many pairs have performed, including Denney/Coughlin, and many others. Here's an exhibition vid of Castelli/Tran from 2016 performing a variation of a head banger or airplane glide @1:25 (and later a series of unique moves culminating at @2:24 in another body swinging move with Merv holding Marissa by her head against his chest). They are so smooth, so cool.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVAqIyTNpCU

The main difference from what the past pair team performed in the video you linked is: the older move is performed lower to the ground starting as a modified death spiral with a quick rotational whipping around and then back into a form of death spiral. I guess it wouldn't be allowed in competition, but it would be fun if skaters had more freedom to innovate. I'd like to see the Knierims perform it.

 

[gkelly]

^^ Yes, it would be cool @barbk. Scott W is certainly an expert at performing barrel rolls. I wonder whether they are allowed for in competition under current rules. Perhaps, but with IJS, skaters have so much they must get in that the freedom to be unique and creative is much less free and available to them in terms of time.

My understanding:

They're not illegal, but they don't automatically gain points as elements or features to existing elements.

In a choreo sequence they would be welcome. Worth doing if the skater can perform in such a way as to contribute positively to the GOE of the ChSq and/or to the program components.

In a step sequence they would not add to the level in any way, so only worth doing if they are likely to increase the GOE or the PCS.

As transitions outside such sequences they could contribute positively to PCS, and possibly to the GOE of a jump or spin element they lead directly into or out of.

The program component they'd probably be most likely to affect negatively would be Skating Skills, performed on two feet in a program that already includes more than its fair share of two-foot skating. But if performed well and/or used to good choreographic effect they should have a positive impact on most components.

 

[Meoima]

It looks cool... hopefully we will see some current skaters do aome barrel rolls even just in gala

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks very much @gkelly. What you explain is hopeful, but in other words, doing barrel rolls and other unusual moves would require a thoughtful process and much creativity between skater and choreographer combining the right music & costume choices with skillful choreo and musical interpretation. Most skaters I would imagine, don't have the time or skill for that, especially since as you say, the barrell rolls and other innovative moves: "... don't automatically gain points as elements or features to existing elements."

As we know, skating today is more about accumulating points. Any creativity and innovation is good if you can get it with the points. And so, innovation and creativity is seen as a luxury and icing on the cake (at best). But also, unfortunately more of an afterthought to making sure the ubiquitous and boring point-getting required moves and endless spin revolutions are taken care of.

Oh well, I continue to be hopeful that someone will surprise us. That's why I appreciate the former Savchenko/Szolkowy, and Gilles/Poirier so very much, as well as the way skillful choreographers like Rohene, Jeff, Julie, Dickson, Dean, John Kerr, and Shae Lynn try very hard to challenge their skaters by incorporating uniqueness. (Which of course then often gets copied in different ways, but I guess that's a compliment).

 

[screech]

Thanks for sharing. Here's a video of Ronnie Robertson skating to Pagliacci (and introduced by Tab Hunter, who also skated before becoming an actor): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDRjoHk2PQc

Tab Hunter was so beautiful in his prime. And a bit of gossip - he helped fund Ronnie's skating, as they were in a relationship in the 50s.

In any case, at least in exhibitions I wish skaters would use moves like these more. It's like the Russian split jump - used to be used all the time in competitive programs, now it's barely used, even in exhibitions. And I love them!

 

[aftershocks]

Tab Hunter was so beautiful in his prime. And a bit of gossip - he helped fund Ronnie's skating, as they were in a relationship in the 50s.

Yep, thanks I know. I read Tab Hunter: Confidential. It pulls the wool off the 1950s and 1960s re Hollywood studio system behind-the-scenes, and macho boy-next-door societal myths and expectations.

Another revealing Hollywood biography is Farley Granger's Include Me Out: My Life From Goldwyn to Broadway. An eye-opening and entertaining read. Granger was a very good actor who had intimate relationships with both men and women, including Shelley Winters and Arthur Laurents. He's particularly known for his work in Hitchcock's Strangers on a Train, and Rope.
http://bugsburnett.blogspot.com/2011/07/how-hollywood-star-farley-granger-lost.html
http://nypost.com/2011/03/29/farley...iancee-shelley-winters-ive-seen-an-awful-lot/