Vaytsekhovskaya's interview with Irina Slutskaya

[SkateFanBerlin]

Bull....
Raf never said anything like this, or made ANY comments about doping and Slutskaya’s heart condition.

It was an insinuation, made by Dave Lease (DL) of The Skating Lesson (TSL) way back during WADA/Russia issues.

Dave Lease took an interview from RA, it was posted on Golden Skate. Rafael does not say one word about Slutskaya. At some point Rafael “waved his head” in a way that made David Lease “assume” whatever he wanted to “assume”.

Based on his assumption, David Lease then added HIS OWN editorial comments saying that “Rafael did not say Slutskaya, but at some point, he waived his head, which probably meant that he thinks Slutskaya’s heart issues were invented, she was clearing her system. Because sometimes such heart issues can come from taking steroids”.

Here is a copy of the Golden Skate link, which has a small part of the interview. The TSL’s interview link was soon removed…
https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?60017-Rafael-Arutyunyan-on-Russian-Doping

The link (removed) but the heading describes the story
http://www.theskatinglesson.com/tsl...fael-arutyunyan-on-the-russian-doping-scandal

That interview was translated on the Russian sites. There is a copy in Russian, of Dave Lease's "assumptions" and "editorial" (the russian poster did not speak english, google-translated it from english to russian, and the paragraph is not grammatically correct).

David Lease thinks...
Хотя Arutyuanyan не упоминает ее по имени, Ирина Слуцкая поднял брови, когда она вернулась конкуренция сильнее, чем когда-либо после того, как поставлен диагноз синдрома Чарга-Стросса, форма васкулита. Когда поставлен диагноз болезни, врачи сообщили, Слуцкая она имела увеличенное сердце. Увеличенные сердца известный побочный эффект использования стероидов.

Although Aratunyan never mentions her name, Irina Slutskaya, he frowned; (so that means that Rafael thinks) when she returned to competition, she was not as strong as she was before she was diagnosed with the heart condition. When diagnosed, Slutskaya's doctors determined she has an enlarged heart. Enlarged heart is known as a side effect of using steroids.

Wow - thanks for all the work. I guess you are right. I don't know what made me think Raf was the source of the Slutskaya story. The story never went anywhere.

I've seen him shrug his shoulders and and give knowing looks about other things - i.e. Ashley's practice habits.

 

[Marco]

I think she was unlucky in the 2002 Olympics short program because it was quite good and Michelle got away with a slight ur on her 3f. However, her 1-foot steps, while impressive, were a bit shallow and lacked diversity, which might have been deductions. Also, her final combination spin traveled quite a bit. And she did her jumping passes as the first three elements.

So I guess I say unlucky because her errors or compositional issues didn't seem as significant as Michelle's ur, but they couldn't be ignored.

Exactly.

A few things in Irina's short that may have received deductions / lower base mark / negative impressions, especially compared to Michelle:

- gap between steps and 3flip
- extreme front loading of jumps
- steps didn't go end to end
- steps didn't have much content
- combo spin travelled quite substantially throughout the spin, very obvious against the Olympic ring on the ice
- poor spinning in the second foot of the combo spin - didn't really hold any position in the second foot for more than 1 rev aside from the final upright spin

 

[VenusH.]

She never was my favorite... but i admired her for her long career and coming back from illness....

So bit dissapointed to see how bittet she is. Suck it up buttercup, you had a long succesful career.... two olympic medals, slew of other medals... be happy. The world did not hurt you.

 

[Japanfan]

It wasn’t just Scott Hamilton. It was (Canadian) Sandra Bezic, too. I blame both of them for giving the ISU the excuse to ditch the 6.0 system in favor of the the IJS, which made cheating even harder to detect and prove.

Hmm. There was a judge who admitted to being pressured to give one team the win, remember?

And IMO, IJS is a vast improvement to 6.0. I especially like that the top three no longer control their destiny, and more movement in the rankings is allowed.

Honestly though, the way the people in the arena erupted after S/P's performance and their reaction to the score, it wasn't just Scott and Sandra. Tai Babilonia said she was in the bathroom in the arena after the LP and this lady saw her and recognized her and was so upset at the result and asked why should she continue watching this sport, to which Tai (who thought S/P should have won) didn't have an answer to. Although I think B/S deserved to win, I think people either aren't being entirely honest about why the Western media and those who watched it in the U.S. (at least) had the knee-jerk reaction the way they did or need to take off their knowledgeable fan glasses and try to see what made S/P's program so appealing to the point where their loss convinced so many people that the sport was rigged. To me, a lot of things happened that made the optics seems bad for the sport for the U.S. casual fan who only knew landing a jump = win.

You imply that all western viewers felt the win went to S&P, and that just isn't true. I watched the event with Mr. Japanfan and he felt B/S had the win, whereas to me it was clearly S&P. As mentioned previously, I followed the discussions/debates on that event very closely at the time, pretty much leaving the planet for a number of days. There were western people who felt B/S had the win, and Russians who went with S/P. And I've shown the comp to various western friends in the year's since, having a vested interest in it, and find that they are 50-50 one or the other - just as the judges almost were, and just as the FS-viewing population was at large, at the time.

I never was a huge B/S uber to start off with, TBH. There was a whole lot of buzz about them at the 1998 Olympics. IIRC they were poised to win against D/K, and I was so so rooting for D/K (having previously rooted for D/M).

Sure the media didn't help and they sure didn't give a frogs on ice type of analysis to explain why under the rules B/S were also deserving winners, and the whole West v. East thing certainly didn't help matters, along with the idea of political bloc judging on East/West lines, and Russia/Soviet Union having that massive winning streak and here comes these TV-friendly seemingly nice Canadians who had a chance to topple the "machine" with the French judge scandal making things a hundred times worse. However, I do think for casual people (in America who had ties and memories of Love Story) they preferred S/P's charismatic/romantic/snow ball fight/tragic death performance and thought they were clean in the way casual watchers do, so it can't all be on Scott and Sandra. Honestly, Scott and Sandra were FAR from the only ones in that arena who thought what they thought. And yes I know there were people there who thought B/S should have won too, I'm not disputing that.

As to the event being rigged, we all know that it always is to a certain extent - although ice is slippery.

IMVHO, and taking a cynical view, the problem with this event was that two sides were trying equally hard to do the rigging, with the French judge being pushed and shoved between them. Given that the Olympics were in North America and it was the first time ever, and in 40 years or so, that a western had a chance of winning, the 'western' side understandably came out swinging. It might have been best for the 'eastern' side just to let it be.

Again, don't assume this was all about west versus east. The friends I've showed the comp to are western, and not experts on FS - and some preferred B&S.

It really was a very close call, IMHO, and really comes down to personal preference.

Also, @VIETgrlTerifa, you say "thought they were clean in the way casual watchers do".

Could you please explain why S/P were not clean in that performance?

 

[UGG]

I looked up the ordinals for the ladies free in 2002

Sarah- 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Irina- 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
MK- 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

Sarah barely won the long program.

 

[MacMadame]

I was in the arena for the event and there was an overwhelming feeling that S/P had won. When the scores were announced, there was a collective gasp and then silence from those in the box with me.

However, the idea presented above by one poster that B/S were sucky and had all sorts of problems with their FS is revisionist history at best. They were also very good and it's quite possible that had they skated last and skated like they did that we might not have felt that S/P had done it and not have been shocked by the scores.

 

[LarrySK8]

I was in the arena for the event and there was an overwhelming feeling that S/P had won. When the scores were announced, there was a collective gasp and then silence from those in the box with me.

I was there also, and as a Pair Skater myself, I was shocked by the audience perception and how it was different from a judging perspective. Sale & Pelltier's program was all about side by side skating in unison. They only really touched each other to complete pair elements and their program was not a seamless choreography, i.e. kind of junior level compared to B/S. They had phony facial expressions and kind-of sentimental, cheesy presentation (like the movie).

Skating is more than landing jumps and throws. Although, Sale and Pelltier had the best lifts because David was superior in his footwork, and better than Anton in the lift footwork. The man's footwork in lifts is often overlooked by an audience, but is judged very specifically. Other subtle issues are judged, maybe not apparent to an audience.

Has anyone gone back and applied IJS to this competition? I think PCS would give B/S the win, by far.

 

[VGThuy]

You imply that all western viewers felt the win went to S&P, and that just isn't true. I watched the event with Mr. Japanfan and he felt B/S had the win, whereas to me it was clearly S&P. As mentioned previously, I followed the discussions/debates on that event very closely at the time, pretty much leaving the planet for a number of days. There were western people who felt B/S had the win, and Russians who went with S/P. And I've shown the comp to various western friends in the year's since, having a vested interest in it, and find that they are 50-50 one or the other - just as the judges almost were, and just as the FS-viewing population was at large, at the time.

You're sort of twisting my words around. I'm only talking about the overwhelming reaction in the arena and the media reaction backed up by the audience's feelings even before the whole judging scandal came about. The judging scandal made things worse but it also seemed to validate people's initial reaction. You're talking about anecdotal evidence here, but there would not have been a scandal in the U.S. perpetrated or fanned by the media unless there was something to exploit and obviously there was. Of course there will be other people who didn't feel the same way as there's no such thing as 100% positive reactions when it comes to popular opinion. I even said I'm not disputing those who even in the arena felt B/S should have won. I even said I thought B/S deserved the win, though that took me learning a lot more about figure skating to come to that conclusion as the 2002 Olympics was my first Olympics that I watched beyond a casual watcher.

Again, don't assume this was all about west versus east. The friends I've showed the comp to are western, and not experts on FS - and some preferred B&S.

Again, I'm not speaking in absolutes as I'm a long-time poster here and know this forum is mostly Western posters and it's overwhelmingly pro-B/S (some of them reacted to what they perceived to be overwhelmingly pro-Western bias in the commentary as other posters have referenced in their posts in this very thread), but you know the whole East v. West thing played a part. There was so much talk about the history about Eastern Bloc judging that after the event, so much of the judging scandal was about Eastern bloc judging and decades of it by the Western media. Why do you think Stapleford went after Marie-Reine Le Gougne? Because her ordinal did not fall by Eastern-Western sides that she felt something was up and suspected it had something to do with ice dance. That was all a part of the East v. West thing. Also, after so many years posting here, one thing I've understood was that the Russian commentators DID NOT have the reaction that Scott v. Sandra did and Irina Rodnina cheered with B/S came out on top, so I can't help but deduct there was a East v. West disconnect.

Also, @VIETgrlTerifa, you say "thought they were clean in the way casual watchers do".

Could you please explain why S/P were not clean in that performance?

Read the Frogs on Ice analysis. Jamie was pitched forward on some of her throws and did not hold the landings. Albeit they were clean, but weren't maximizing their potential scores even under 6.0. More jarring was that one of S/P's lifts may have been illegal as he was holding Jamie on her thigh as opposed to her hip and that was a deduction under the rule books at the time (maybe even now). Some of the other stuff were composition issues that don't affect cleanliness, but don't really give what the rulebooks were asking for, like how S/P did two lasso lifts instead of three different types of lifts as was standard and asked for the way B/S did. Then there's all the stuff about simpler programs and side-by-side skating v. B/S's more intricate and difficult program. However, casual viewers would not know to look for such things and would assume the two footed simple program was good enough for a win if they skated it with charisma and with the confidence of champions and brought all the relatable emotion and landed their jump/throw elements relatively cleanly.

 

[giselle23]

Hmm. There was a judge who admitted to being pressured to give one team the win, remember?

But did she actually give B/S the win? I can't recall. Scott and Sandra's commentary fueled the fire that led to the investigation. The investigation was a good thing, but the ISU's response-- a slap on the wrist for the judge and the French federation and a massive overhaul of the judging system (with anonymous judging)--was not.

 

[giselle23]

Exactly.

A few things in Irina's short that may have received deductions / lower base mark / negative impressions, especially compared to Michelle:

- gap between steps and 3flip
- extreme front loading of jumps
- steps didn't go end to end
- steps didn't have much content
- combo spin travelled quite substantially throughout the spin, very obvious against the Olympic ring on the ice
- poor spinning in the second foot of the combo spin - didn't really hold any position in the second foot for more than 1 rev aside from the final upright spin

And don't forget frantic face-palming at the end.

 

[UGG]

There never would have been an investigation if Scott and Sandra hadn't made such a big deal of the result.

There would never have been dual gold medals if a judge did not cheat. The cheating is what lead to the final results, not people complaining. If there were an investigation and no cheating, there would be no dual gold medals. I’m not really sure why this fact is always eliminated...

 

[Coco]

It's been 17 years and it ain't going away!

The "solution" always bothered me because a tie in the FS still leaves B/S ahead due to their SP victory.

Was there a provision for one of the other officials, such as the referee, to be a backup judge? If so, why didn't they go that route?

 

[Deleted member 19433]

Read the Frogs on Ice analysis. Jamie was pitched forward on some of her throws and did not hold the landings. Albeit they were clean, but weren't maximizing their potential scores even under 6.0. More jarring was that one of S/P's lifts may have been illegal as he was holding Jamie on her thigh as opposed to her hip and that was a deduction under the rule books at the time (maybe even now). Some of the other stuff were composition issues that don't affect cleanliness, but don't really give what the rulebooks were asking for, like how S/P did two lasso lifts instead of three different types of lifts as was standard and asked for the way B/S did. Then there's all the stuff about simpler programs and side-by-side skating v. B/S's more intricate and difficult program. However, casual viewers would not know to look for such things and would assume the two footed simple program was good enough for a win if they skated it with charisma and with the confidence of champions and brought all the relatable emotion and landed their jump/throw elements relatively cleanly.

It's not now.

"Partners may give each other assistance only through hand-to-hand, hand-to-arm, hand-to-body and hand to upper part of the leg (above the knee) grips" and a group three lift, which is traditionally thought of as hand-to-hip is officially defined as "Hand to Hip or upper part of the leg (above the knee) position" (page 112).
https://isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-regulations-rules/file

It's been 17 years and it ain't going away!

The "solution" always bothered me because a tie in the FS still leaves B/S ahead due to their SP victory.

Was there a provision for one of the other officials, such as the referee, to be a backup judge? If so, why didn't they go that route?

There was a substitute judge who I remember hearing had given S&P 1st place (which would have given them the free skate win and the overall win, if those marks had been used instead, but likely they didn't want to take the gold away from B&S?). I think the substitute judge's marks were only supposed to be used if one of the official judge actually couldn't finish judging the event and have never heard of that actually happening. In the official free skate results, so it was a tie in the free skate, which, as you said would've still left B&S the winners by the usual calculations. Having them share gold was definitely an unconventional decision not really backed up by the rules and that bothers me somewhat too, but they were kind of between a rock and a hard place.

 

[rhapsody]

I was there also, and as a Pair Skater myself, I was shocked by the audience perception and how it was different from a judging perspective. Sale & Pelltier's program was all about side by side skating in unison. They only really touched each other to complete pair elements and their program was not a seamless choreography, i.e. kind of junior level compared to B/S. They had phony facial expressions and kind-of sentimental, cheesy presentation (like the movie).

Skating is more than landing jumps and throws. Although, Sale and Pelltier had the best lifts because David was superior in his footwork, and better than Anton in the lift footwork. The man's footwork in lifts is often overlooked by an audience, but is judged very specifically. Other subtle issues are judged, maybe not apparent to an audience.

Has anyone gone back and applied IJS to this competition? I think PCS would give B/S the win, by far.

I far preferred B&S to S&P but I think using the IJS as it is used now might actually give the free skate win to the Canadians. When you factor in the negative GOE for the jump sequence and the low GOEs for the tight landings on the throws and crashy twist, as well as levels and GOEs for the difficult lifts and death spirals of S&P, there is almost no comparison. It would could come down to components and as the IJS is used now I don't think the judges would actually differentiate the transitions, complex choreography, and skating skills of B&S. Right now, if you skate clean you get the components regardless of how craptastic your program construction is.

But then again, if we're using IJS--one also has to rejudge the short program. I personally think that B&S's Lady Caliph is the finest short program in Olympic history. B&S would've demolished S&P there and have had more than enough of a buffer to give them the win overall. But YMMV.

 

[LarrySK8]

I personally think that B&Z's Lady Caliph is the finest short program in Olympic history.

I agree - however, my favorite incarnation of it is from the Lalique Trophy just prior to the Olympics. The blue costumes and performance were magnificent, and I don't even mind the lower level pair spin at the end which was ??? on rotations.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I can't recall. Scott and Sandra's commentary fueled the fire that led to the investigation. The investigation was a good thing, but the ISU's response-- a slap on the wrist for the judge and the French federation and a massive overhaul of the judging system (with anonymous judging)--was not.

There would have been no investigation without LeGougne's witnessed admission, once under immediate duress when confronted by Stapleford and at least one other witness, and then repeated at the judges' meeting, because there was no administrative policy or rules for investigation, despite years of judging scandals and allegations of bloc voting on variations on a theme of two sides, and because neither NBC nor CBC had done the type of investigation that would show direct proof, no matter how loud the screeching by any commentator.

PJ Kwong's book goes into detail about the discussions that led to the decision to award dual gold medals.

Under today's IJS, at minimum, B/S should have had a substantial lead after the SP, although, the way PCS are still awarded, I doubt that would have happened. A big lead can go either way in the heads of the competitors, so that could have been a factor in the FS per IJS.

 

[eurodance2001]

It's been 17 years and it ain't going away!

The "solution" always bothered me because a tie in the FS still leaves B/S ahead due to their SP victory.

Was there a provision for one of the other officials, such as the referee, to be a backup judge? If so, why didn't they go that route?

The substitute judge was Jarmila Portova of the Czech Republic and she had S/P 1st in the long program.

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/30/sports/figure-skating-judge-and-ice-official-face-accusers.html

 

[eurodance2001]

I looked up the ordinals for the ladies free in 2002

Sarah- 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Irina- 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
MK- 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

Sarah barely won the long program.

It truly really was close for Irina. I remember Christine Brennan writing an article for USA Today about how close it was and about how the Russians were protesting the result. Christine stated that Hughes should've counter protested that the ordinals were not unanimous 9-0 for Hughes. That made me chuckle.. The fact that Irina feels that she was cheated is very WTF. If anything, she was gifted on multiple occasions. NHK over Butryskaya being one of the most blatant; as well as her receiving 5.9's for presentation for some of her programs.

 

[MsZem]

Well, since the dead horse has been exhumed again: I like to think that near the end this clip Hongbo Zhao was giving Jamie Sale the side eye for colliding with Anton Sikharulidze in the warmup, but his expression is probably unrelated. IIRC that collision was later presented as somehow being Sikharulidze's fault, which obviously it was not.

My take at the time was that I was thrilled that my favorites Shen and Zhao got a medal and also that B/S were clearly better. Also that it was a good thing that the next event had such an obvious winner in Yagudin.

 

[alchemy void]

2000 NHK over Butryskaya being one of the most blatant

Too soon!

 

[Tinami Amori]

I looked up the ordinals for the ladies free in 2002

Sarah- 1 4 3 4 1 2 1 1 1
Irina- 3 1 1 1 4 1 2 3 2
MK- 2 3 2 2 2 3 3 2 3

Sarah barely won the long program.

Remind me please about scoring. back then were one higher and lower mark in each score eliminate?

 

[LarrySK8]

Remind me please about scoring. back then were one higher and lower mark in each score eliminate?

Noooooooo.

In the example above, the ordinals can be summarized as:

Hughes: (5/1) The majority of her ordinals were 1st place by 5 judges.
Irina: (6/2) The majority of ordinals were 2nd place or higher by 6 judges.
Kwan: (9/3) The majority of ordinals were 3rd place or higher by 9 (all) judges.

Soooo - it was SUPER close between Hughes and Irina AND it was super close for 2nd place between Kwan and Irina. One change of one judge's ordinal could have changed everything. For example - if one of the two judges who placed Irina 1st and Kwan 2nd had the audacity to put Kwan 1st and Irina 2nd, the summary would have been:

Hughes: (5/1)
Kwan: (5/2)
Irina: (8/3)

It was very close, and complex.

 

[skatingfan5]

Remind me please about scoring. back then were one higher and lower mark in each score eliminate?

No marks were eliminated, all counted and Sarah was ranked over Irina by 5 of the judges, versus 4 who ranked Irina higher in the FS.

 

[Tinami Amori]

In 2002 Olympic FS, i thought Sarah had the "wow" factor in her performance, energy, speed, and expression. I had her in 1st too.... (for same reasons as with Baiul, Lipinski, Sotnikova...)

 

[Deleted member 19433]

Under today's IJS, at minimum, B/S should have had a substantial lead after the SP, although, the way PCS are still awarded, I doubt that would have happened. A big lead can go either way in the heads of the competitors, so that could have been a factor in the FS per IJS.

The double fall at the end of S&P's program would've "helped" give B&S an advantage too. I presume it would've been a two point deduction since they never came to a complete stop beforehand.

 

[tony]

The double fall at the end of S&P's program would've "helped" give B&S an advantage too. I presume it would've been a two point deduction since they never came to a complete stop beforehand.

This is interesting. Watching the program over, they were either right at 2:40 or right over 2:40 when they fell, so they could've gotten a third deduction for going over the time. Both falling definitely would have been two deductions-- maybe you meant the third as well.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

This is interesting. Watching the program over, they were either right at 2:40 or right over 2:40 when they fell, so they could've gotten a third deduction for going over the time.

Yes, potentially, although that would've been a deduction under 6.0 too of 0.1 from each mark (0.2 total) if the referee felt it was over, and it doesn't seem like that deduction was taken (if S&P's actual marks had reflected that deduction then that would mean they would've been unanimously first without it since no judge had them more than 0.1 below B&S in total marks).

 

[tony]

My own view of the 2002 Olympics in real-time (at 15 years old) was that I was totally in the B/S boat. I do think their SP is one of the top five programs of all-time, and I was a little bit over the constant media frenzy involving Sale/Pelletier in North America, much like how I felt about B/K at the time (but the latter was also because of their eye-rolling and complaining).

Watching the free skates, I thought after S/P's skate that the judges would give it to them, but I still felt overall that B/S were the better team. I was thrilled when the judges, IMO of course, rewarded the better package even with the mistake. And then NBC immediately went to the drama show, as we all know.

Looking back on S/P, I remember the first time we saw them in the USA they skated at one of those ISU pro-ams (The Masters IIRC) and finished last even though they skated very well. Then just a year later, they win Skate America and just WEEKS later, after withdrawing from a different GP, Lifetime TV chose to sit with them in the audience and get their opinions of all the other teams. When has a skater/team been that pushed to the top so quickly? Or, maybe better put-- when has a non-USA team been pushed that hard by the USA commentators/producers?

Another issue I have with North American television during those years is every single time B/S lost out to a weaker S/P, there was never a single question raised about the judging as far as I know. Sandra Bezic even said during the Olympics that B/S have the stronger program (or something along those lines), but it never seemed to apply at any other competitions. See the GPF short program just a little bit over a month before these Olympics as another example people don't often give.

 

[VGThuy]

Noooooooo.

In the example above, the ordinals can be summarized as:

Hughes: (5/1) The majority of her ordinals were 1st place by 5 judges.
Irina: (6/2) The majority of ordinals were 2nd place or higher by 6 judges.
Kwan: (9/3) The majority of ordinals were 3rd place or higher by 9 (all) judges.

Soooo - it was SUPER close between Hughes and Irina AND it was super close for 2nd place between Kwan and Irina. One change of one judge's ordinal could have changed everything. For example - if one of the two judges who placed Irina 1st and Kwan 2nd had the audacity to put Kwan 1st and Irina 2nd, the summary would have been:

Hughes: (5/1)
Kwan: (5/2)
Irina: (8/3)

It was very close, and complex.

And if that had happened, Kwan would have won gold! The OBO system was funky in that it made sense but you get results where the majority of judges could have placed a skater higher than their actual placement in the either the LP or SP but because it wasn't unanimous regarding which skaters placed higher or lower than them, they ended up the way they ended up i.e. five out of nine judges placing Kwan in second in the LP.

Check out the 1998 Ladies in contention for the bronze medal LP ordinals to see what I mean. The 2002 Olympics SP ordinals were also all over the place.

 

[giselle23]

It truly really was close for Irina. I remember Christine Brennan writing an article for USA Today about how close it was and about how the Russians were protesting the result. Christine stated that Hughes should've counter protested that the ordinals were not unanimous 9-0 for Hughes. That made me chuckle.. The fact that Irina feels that she was cheated is very WTF. If anything, she was gifted on multiple occasions. NHK over Butryskaya being one of the most blatant; as well as her receiving 5.9's for presentation for some of her programs.

Also, didn't she once win Europeans with only three triples? I can't remember what her competitors did, but I do remember a lot of criticism at the time.