U.S. Men in 2018 - articles & latest news

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And Adam is responsible for taking his career into his own hands when USFS was more interested in 'phasing him out' in 2015 with that low-ball sp score.

Say what now? Adam got nearly 85 for a program with two level 2 spins (including missing a basic position in his last combination spin) and an under-rotated quad Lutz with a two-foot landing and step out. If anything, you could argue his SP score at 2015 Nats was rather generous!

*looks at videos from 2015 nats and winces* ah yes, I did always want to burn that Footloose from my eyeballs. Sorry, Max.
 
Say what now? Adam got nearly 85 for a program with two level 2 spins (including missing a basic position in his last combination spin) and an under-rotated quad Lutz with a two-foot landing and step out. If anything, you could argue his SP score at 2015 Nats was rather generous!

*looks at videos from 2015 nats and winces* ah yes, I did always want to burn that Footloose from my eyeballs. Sorry, Max.

Everyone's a victim in the eyes of the fans and competitors; Ashley, Adam, Ross, and Mirai! Just depends on what you want out of judging and who you support at times! :rolleyes: :40beers: :barrel :encore: :puppet: :respec:
 
Whatever @misskarne. Adam was in 5th place after the sp in 2015 for a very good sp, regardless of your opinion. As a result of having faltered in 2014, Adam was not being held in high regard at that point. He could have accepted the judges' message, folded in the fp and went away quietly. He didn't.
 
It would make perfect sense to put Adam as the flag bearer at the Olympics but I think with the political winds this year it will probably be a woman.

Team USA has almost always selected at least a 3 time Olympian as its opening ceremony flag bearer (usually a prior medalist). My bet is either Elana Meyers (as mentioned earlier) or Lowell Bailey (not an Olympic medalist, but a World champ and a 4 time Olympian).
 
Whatever @misskarne. Adam was in 5th place after the sp in 2015 for a very good sp, regardless of your opinion. He could have accepted the judges' message, folded in the fp and went away quietly. He didn't.

This is literally not my opinion, it's what the protocol actually says. If you look at the protocol it's all there in black and white - quad Lutz under-rotated with -3 GOE. Change foot sit spin level 2. Combination spin with change of foot, 2 positions, level 2. Have a look at the actual protocol. And the video clearly shows a two-footed landing and step out of the quad Lutz. What the hell video/protocol were you looking at?

Also, Adam made mistakes in that SP in a field where he could not. He still ended up only a point behind Max, who landed a clean quad and had two level 4s and a level 3 (Max's TES was 3 points higher than Adam's). He was only four points behind Jeremy who had a mistake on his 3A landing and two level 3s. The leader was Jason with 93 and he was perfect. Joshua had a 90 for two errors - the turnout on the 3F-3T and the level two spin. If the judges were sending Adam a message, it was "hey, we think you're so good we're going to keep you in touch in this ridiculously talented good field".
 
This is literally not my opinion, it's what the protocol actually says. If you look at the protocol it's all there in black and white - quad Lutz under-rotated with -3 GOE. Change foot sit spin level 2. Combination spin with change of foot, 2 positions, level 2. Have a look at the actual protocol. And the video clearly shows a two-footed landing and step out of the quad Lutz. What the hell video/protocol were you looking at?

Also, Adam made mistakes in that SP in a field where he could not. He still ended up only a point behind Max, who landed a clean quad and had two level 4s and a level 3 (Max's TES was 3 points higher than Adam's). He was only four points behind Jeremy who had a mistake on his 3A landing and two level 3s. The leader was Jason with 93 and he was perfect. Joshua had a 90 for two errors - the turnout on the 3F-3T and the level two spin. If the judges were sending Adam a message, it was "hey, we think you're so good we're going to keep you in touch in this ridiculously talented good field".

No one wants to hear it so they can justify the choice of Adam with a subpar effort! It was really worse than when Bobek watered down her program just to keep her feet knowing the judges would send her to Nagano no matter what! Adam probably should have just kept it clean and skipped the Quad Lutz this Nat'ls IMO! The judgement would have looked a little less shady since the result was one of the most awful performances of someone being selected out of hand as they've done "yet again!" :rolleyes: :duh: :fragile: :plush:
 
As I said, Adam came back strong in his fp and pulled up to 2nd place (he was very close to winning, except that Jason laid down a gutsy, competitive skate afterward). I didn't even recall Adam attempting a 4-lutz in the sp that year. Cool. :cool: :lol: Adam led the effort of going for 4-lutz in competition, and that's for sure, even though it was younger guys like Boyang Jin and Nathan Chen who mastered it post Brandon Mroz landing the first ratified 4-lutz in competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toR5bRdC4XI No sound, but here's the 2015 sp
I found it interesting to see how much Adam has improved since then
Here's the same program at 2015 Worlds, with sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd4oj_uTdL8

The point is that Adam found it within himself to turn things around in his career. He was motivated by his placement in the 2015 Nats sp to come back with determination in the fp. Here's the sp and fp back-to-back at 2015 Nationals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHJfmx6M3BY
And 2016 France GP fp with ratified quad toe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hvo-3yXvic

What's the point in getting over-excited and venomous about what happened in 2015? You feel the way you feel @misskarne, and the protocols tell the story of what the judges noted and felt about Adam's performances. :drama:

Obviously another poster here is fixated on 2018 and not exactly following the thread drift. :yawn:
 
What's the point in getting over-excited and venomous about what happened in 2015? You feel the way you feel @misskarne, and the protocols tell the story of what the judges noted and felt about Adam's performances. :drama:

You were the one who stated the judges gave Adam a "go away" message and that he got a "low ball" score in the SP in 2015. But the quickest, shortest glance at the protocol suggests that the judges did not really give Adam any message because the score wasn't "low ball" at all! In fact, if you start adding up the points lost on his errors, a clean SP at that event would have been over 90. How is that telling him to go away?
 
You were the one who stated the judges gave Adam a "go away" message...

Yep, that's how Adam felt because that's what he said and I don't disagree. He had historically struggled with competitive nerves, and it was a victory for him to skate with no major errors and without falls. It certainly doesn't matter at this point whether 'a message' by judges was intended or not intended. The key is that Adam used what he felt the judges were telling him, as motivation to persevere.

Also, the fact Adam wasn't as highly regarded coming back from his 2014 Nats struggles was mentioned by commentators who felt Adam 'was harshly judged' in the 2015 sp. But I guess you'd beg to differ with that as well, since Johnny Weir was one of the commentators who made the references, along with Terry Gannon and Tara Lipinski. :p

Why are you so overwrought about Mr. Rippon in the first place. :drama: :COP: :violin:
 
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Adam led the effort for the 4Lz in competition? Now that is...I don’t even know. Frankly, that is solely attributed to Boyang.
 
Adam led the effort for the 4Lz in competition? Now that is...I don’t even know. Frankly, that is solely attributed to Boyang.

I disagree. Efforts to land the 4Lz in competition can be traced much earlier than that. People forget it was Brandon Mroz who landed the first clean one. Plushenko came damn close...in 2001.
 
I think there's a difference between the earlier skaters who attempted or practiced the quad Lutz, and Boyang Jin. Boyang's quad Lutz pushed the jump from the fringes into the mainstream and he was the first to start landing it regularly, and consistently and it was the beginning of the ramp up of quad jumps which has happened in the past two years.
 
I disagree. Efforts to land the 4Lz in competition can be traced much earlier than that. People forget it was Brandon Mroz who landed the first clean one. Plushenko came damn close...in 2001.

I've never understood why Mroz's got "homologated" first- wasn't it in a club competition? Don't these things usually have to happen in international competition?
 
I remember there being some controversy about ratifying Mroz’s lutz at the time (especially from Rippon’s camp, since he wanted his chance to be first, IIRC), but he did land it on the Grand Prix that year before anyone else, in any case, so first is cemented as his.
 
I remember there being some controversy about ratifying Mroz’s lutz at the time (especially from Rippon’s camp, since he wanted his chance to be first, IIRC), but he did land it on the Grand Prix that year before anyone else, in any case, so first is cemented as his.
Mroz landed the quad lutz at the 2011 Colorado Springs Invitational, which the ISU decided to ratify. It was a sanctioned competition, just not an international.

To further solidify his "first", he then landed the quad lutz again in the SP at NHK Trophy that fall.

It seems like the ISU just makes up its own rules as to what is ratified. Kurt Browning got credit for the first quad toe at the 88 Worlds, even though he did two 3-turns out of the landing. They ratified Mroz's quad lutz at a club competition instead of an international, but then Krasnozhon's quad loop wasn't ratified because it didn't have positive GOE - and Hanyu landed it a week later and got the "first" (konspiracy!).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(figure_skating)
 
I've never understood why Mroz's got "homologated" first- wasn't it in a club competition? Don't these things usually have to happen in international competition?
I believe that you've answered your own question. Still, he did land a quadruple lutz in subsequent international competition, so what's your point here?
 
I believe that you've answered your own question. Still, he did land a quadruple lutz in subsequent international competition, so what's your point here?

Was he the first in international? (Edit: I see someone posted he was.)

I don't believe I did answer my own question- why did the ISU ratify something that happened in a club competition? Have other skaters who are the "first" to do any skill had the same thing happen to them? Do they monitor competitions in every country or just major ones?
 
I remember there being some controversy about ratifying Mroz’s lutz at the time (especially from Rippon’s camp, since he wanted his chance to be first, IIRC)
I don't recall any such controversy -- maybe from fans but not from "Rippon's camp"? Mroz being the first to land the 4Lz in competition was a fair and deserved accomplishment. He was an incredibly talented jumper.
I don't believe I did answer my own question- why did the ISU ratify something that happened in a club competition? Have other skaters who are the "first" to do any skill had the same thing happen to them? Do they monitor competitions in every country or just major ones?
USFS submitted Mroz's 4Lz video to the ISU and it was "homolgated" that way.

ETA - here's a clip of Mroz's 4Lz at the Colorado Springs Invitational club competition (Terry Kubicka, an ISU technical specialist, was on the panel) in Sept. 2011: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMQ8qNTG-jY

IN article (Oct. 26, 2011): ISU confirms Mroz's historic accomplishment
Officials from the CSI [club competition], including referee Les Cramer and technical specialist Terry Kubicka (the first U.S. man to land a triple Lutz in competition) completed paperwork in support of Mroz and longtime U.S. Figure Skating official Gale Tanger hand delivered the report to ISU officials at the Hilton HHonors Skate America Grand Prix event, which was held this past weekend in Ontario, Calif.
 
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He was an incredibly talented jumper.
There’s certainly no denying that. The back and forth I remember wasn’t about the merits of the jump, but about homologating at a club competition. Looking back, the Rippon stuff may have just been board speculation that he wanted the shot at being first, since he had an earlier GP event, but I did find this Icenetwork article with a quote from Patrick Chan about it not really being official until Mroz landed the jump internationally, which is the general feeling I remember from the time. Luckily Mroz did just that, so it’s one less thing for us to argue over as we all go a little crazy waiting for the Olympics to start. :40beers:
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111027&content_id=25805134&vkey=ice_news
 
I believe one of the justifications for Mroz's ratification was that there was an ISU tech spec on the panel (and they got it on professional video). I still don't think it should have happened - but I mean then he went and did it on the GP and no-one else did, so it's all a moot point really.

They ratified Mroz's quad lutz at a club competition instead of an international, but then Krasnozhon's quad loop wasn't ratified because it didn't have positive GOE - and Hanyu landed it a week later and got the "first" (konspiracy!).

Yeah, that was dodgy as fcuk and smacked of the ISU wanting to make sure the "first" was by a bigger name than a then-little known American born in Russia. It was also incredibly stupid because it basically was the ISU undermining their own panels at the event. That could set a really dangerous precedent.

IIRC, Mroz's first ones didn't have +GOE, did they?
 
I don't mind the idea of it being ratified at a club competition with a valid technical specialist. In gymnastics, an athlete has to (or maybe had to--I am so out of date) present an original skill at the world championships in order to have it named after them. So there are many skills named after athletes who really weren't the first to perform them, and you will often hear people complain about how the skill should have been named after so-and-so.
 
I don't mind the idea of it being ratified at a club competition with a valid technical specialist.

Oh, I wouldn't mind ratification at club comps as long as there are rules about it. My problem in 2011 was that they basically pushed it through in contravention of what the established protocol was (which I believe was "FS of an ISU event" at the time).

To allow ratification at a club event I would require a) at least two members of the technical panel to be ISU technical officials and b) professional recording/video available in HD. That way you have no doubts that it's fine to be ratified.
 
Yeah, that was dodgy as fcuk and smacked of the ISU wanting to make sure the "first" was by a bigger name than a then-little known American born in Russia. It was also incredibly stupid because it basically was the ISU undermining their own panels at the event. That could set a really dangerous precedent.
Except under 6.0 they refused to ratify a 2-footed quad, so -GOE is the equivalent under IJS.
 
But people were sure quick to count Mirai Nagasu’s triple axel with a two-footed landing and negative GOEs at U.S. Classic.
 
But people were sure quick to count Mirai Nagasu’s triple axel with a two-footed landing and negative GOEs at U.S. Classic.
Well that's the difference between fans saying 'Nagasu landed a 3A' and the ISU ratifying a jump as a first successful completion. Once someone's done it once the ISU doesn't track the accomplishment, but fans do. Someone used to have a list of every quad landed at every competition by every skater but gave it up because the numbers were getting out of hand.
 
^^ :p lots of discussion generated re quad lutz. Guys were obviously practicing the quad lutz during training sessions, but who knows exactly when certain guys actually began landing it in training sessions? Did Plushy, Joubert and Yags perform quad toes mostly? Quad-toe seems to be the first quad for many quadsters, and then the salchow first landed by Tim Goebel. [Edit] According to Wiki, the first quad ever landed by Kurt Browning was a quad toe loop. And interestingly, the first triple jump ever landed by Dick Button was a loop.

The first quad flip was landed by Shoma Uno in 2016. The lutz was outer limits until recently. In fact, when quads first began to be landed, there was not a lot of discussion as to what kind of jumps were being landed. When skaters performed the extra revolution it was mainly referred to as simply being a quad, as if that was some kind of new jump in and of itself. The quad is simply an extra revolution added to a basic jump. I spoke about that a few years back and then there were IN articles in which guys discussed some of the differences between the basic jumps and why that extra revolution is so challenging. Then commentators began to focus more on naming the type of quad that was being landed.

There doesn't seem to be any solid documentation of training sessions involving successful quad lutz efforts among senior competitive skaters over the years. That would be difficult to track, unless there was some kind of organized coordination re practice & training reports. Of course Brandon Mroz was the first to land the quad lutz in competition, as I already noted in post #247 in this thread. Still, Adam Rippon as a popularly known skater, made a concerted effort to land the quad lutz (due to its point value and his facility with the triple lutz) before Boyang Jin moved up to seniors and slayed in the points with his fully rotated 4 lutz/triple. That was Jin's calling card and his ticket to the podium as a newbie senior (who still needed to work on other aspects of his skating). The message was sent to all the younger guys that mastering 4 lutz/triple is how to break through in a big way. Nathan Chen had the talent, great jumping technique and chutzpah to heed the message.

The below site lists some of the firsts regarding figure skating jumps, but it is not up-to-date re quad-lutz/triple (Jin Boyang) and the first man to land five clean quads in a single performance (Nathan Chen): http://www.jacksonskates.com/html/jumphist.html

Wiki has updated more recent records re landing quadruple jumps in figure skating, but the list still fails to include the fact that Evan Lysacek landed a quad/triple at U.S. Nationals in 2007. Lysacek also landed quads in international competition, but he didn't need to land a quad jump to win 2010 Olympics, even though his winning without one was used by peeved Plushenko to set off a controversy that led to Patrick Chan mastering quad toe, and quads being overweighted in the scoring. The rest is quad-mania history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(figure_skating)
 
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