As far as funding goes, the Team Envelope tiers are determined mostly by placements and/or assignments so the presence/absence of top skaters does affect the funding for others. For instance, if Nathan and Vincent had decided to continue competing and comprised the Worlds team along with Ilia, then it's likely some of the other US men would have been pushed to lower funding tiers.
U.S. Men 2024-25 news & updates
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MacMadame
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Plus, more money to certain skaters means less money overall. That trickles down to every level.
kwanfan1818
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Unless they declined to take the envelope money.
Looking at the requirements and the stats, Envelope A requires:
1. Worlds podium
2. National Champion plus Top Five at Worlds.
Brown (2023, 2024) and Pulkinen (2022) both finished 5th at Worlds. Had Zhao not skated in 2022, and had Malinin not skated in 2023 and 2024. It is remotely possible that if Brown (2023) or Pulkinen (2022) had gone in as US #1 with all of the politiks behind them, they might have squeaked out the 1-3 points they would have needed to get on the podium in the absence of Zhao and Malinin . In 2024, Brown was not catching Uno: Brown's PCS were just shy of a 9.4 average.
If that didn't matter, and they ended up 4th each time, then Nationals matters. In 2022, US Nationals went Chen, Malinin, Zhao, Brown, Pulkinen. If they all moved up without change, Brown would have been National Champion, and out of Envelope A with a 4th-place finish. In 2023, US Nationals went Malinin, Brown, Torgashev, Naumov, so if Malinin didn't skate, and they all moved up, Brown would be US Champion again. In 2024, US Nationals went Malinin, Brown, Pulkinen, Naumov, so, again without Malinin, Brown would have had his third title in a row. Brown would have been eligibile for Team A Tier 1 instead of Tier 2 envelope money in 2023 and 2024.
Of course, down the tier, skaters on the cusp 11-13 at US Nationals, depending on how many of Chen, Zhao, and Malinin skated in any given year might have moved up a Tier if they didn't otherwise qualify, there would have been different results at different 4C's, etc.
If I understand this correctly, for envelope money, the % each Tier earns from the fixed pool is dependent on the number of skaters who qualify, so the more top skaters qualify at the higher levels, the less cash there is to distribute to all of the qualifiers. It's not like with WTT, where the maximum amount of appearance money is BIG, but fixed based on the number of people who can qualify for it.
Trivia: had Jason Brown not doubled a planned 3S and had landed it cleanly, the additional base value would have likely put him over Hanyu, who underperformed in his quixotic pursuit of the 4A, and Cha, and he would have been FORTH.
ETA: I forgot what I was coming in to post: I don't think USFS should be paying anyone without transparent criteria that are applied to all skaters.
Looking at the requirements and the stats, Envelope A requires:
1. Worlds podium
2. National Champion plus Top Five at Worlds.
Brown (2023, 2024) and Pulkinen (2022) both finished 5th at Worlds. Had Zhao not skated in 2022, and had Malinin not skated in 2023 and 2024. It is remotely possible that if Brown (2023) or Pulkinen (2022) had gone in as US #1 with all of the politiks behind them, they might have squeaked out the 1-3 points they would have needed to get on the podium in the absence of Zhao and Malinin . In 2024, Brown was not catching Uno: Brown's PCS were just shy of a 9.4 average.
If that didn't matter, and they ended up 4th each time, then Nationals matters. In 2022, US Nationals went Chen, Malinin, Zhao, Brown, Pulkinen. If they all moved up without change, Brown would have been National Champion, and out of Envelope A with a 4th-place finish. In 2023, US Nationals went Malinin, Brown, Torgashev, Naumov, so if Malinin didn't skate, and they all moved up, Brown would be US Champion again. In 2024, US Nationals went Malinin, Brown, Pulkinen, Naumov, so, again without Malinin, Brown would have had his third title in a row. Brown would have been eligibile for Team A Tier 1 instead of Tier 2 envelope money in 2023 and 2024.
Of course, down the tier, skaters on the cusp 11-13 at US Nationals, depending on how many of Chen, Zhao, and Malinin skated in any given year might have moved up a Tier if they didn't otherwise qualify, there would have been different results at different 4C's, etc.
If I understand this correctly, for envelope money, the % each Tier earns from the fixed pool is dependent on the number of skaters who qualify, so the more top skaters qualify at the higher levels, the less cash there is to distribute to all of the qualifiers. It's not like with WTT, where the maximum amount of appearance money is BIG, but fixed based on the number of people who can qualify for it.
Trivia: had Jason Brown not doubled a planned 3S and had landed it cleanly, the additional base value would have likely put him over Hanyu, who underperformed in his quixotic pursuit of the 4A, and Cha, and he would have been FORTH.
ETA: I forgot what I was coming in to post: I don't think USFS should be paying anyone without transparent criteria that are applied to all skaters.
caseyedwards
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I don’t believe they were trying to make it easy but just that learning good skating skills can be like learning a quad lutz!!! If it can’t be done that’s depressing! “Well you either have good skating skills at 13 or you never do! Too bad” I bet people can learn edges like they do a quad lutz.
Malinin pcs did go up with all his quads but on the other hand the pcs of grassl is still really terrible! So there is that.
Aceon6
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The whole envelope thing dates back to the “true amateur” era and needs to be ditched. I support a fixed $ amount for being named to the US Senior or Junior Team, then paying people for their results as they achieve them.
I must be missing something. What money have these athletes been getting paid by USFS just to stay in, and where is this information coming from? Also, where is this money coming from?
MacMadame
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The have been credible rumors that USFS has paid athletes to stay in. That's all I know.
I believe the source of these rumors was Dave Lease, and no other evidence to corroborate. Based on what we know about Dave, I don't think we should take his gossip at face value. Unless and until actual evidence that USFS is paying Jason (or anyone else) emerges, I don't think we should assert it as fact.
misskarne
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The rumour began after 2022 that USFS were paying Jason extra to stay in. A nice little scurrilous piece for those who already disliked Jason to then further assume that his motives for continuing weren't genuine. But they've never had a credible source.
Frankly, however, if they have, no-one can argue they haven't got a return on that investment.
Frankly, however, if they have, no-one can argue they haven't got a return on that investment.
What makes them credible? I'd be curious to know if it's true, which skaters, and if the money is coming as a result of sponsors/networks, etc. Without this information, I don't get all the complaining. And I certainly wouldn't assume that other skaters are getting less because of alleged payments for some skaters.
This doesn't count as credible, IMO. Also, even if true, I think the source of funding is particularly relevant.
MacMadame
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There has been talk around the skating community that the USFS has been doing this for years. But sure, they started those 'unfounded' rumors before Jason was even skating so that 30 years later he could be smeared.
I have been hearing this -- that USFS has been paying this or that skater to stay in -- since the early 90s from people I know personally who are heavily involved in skating and in a position to know. No, I'm not going to name them. But they aren't David Lease.
Anyway, for at least one of them that I know about, it was done via sponsorships that required the skater to keep skating. I am less salty about that because it is doubtful that sponsors would have sponsored an up-and-coming skater. Plus, sponsors have reasons why they sponsor who they sponsor that can be mysterious and they have no duty to develop the sport like USFS does.
skatingguy
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I just wanted to add that I don't see what's wrong with this. Giving skaters with a good competitive record a financial benefit that incentivizes them staying in competitive skating seems like a smart financial decision for the USFS, and helps the skater because then they can focus on their training.
There has been talk around the skating community that the USFS has been doing this for years. But sure, they started those 'unfounded' rumors before Jason was even skating so that 30 years later he could be smeared.
I have been hearing this -- that USFS has been paying this or that skater to stay in -- since the early 90s from people I know personally who are heavily involved in skating and in a position to know. No, I'm not going to name them. But they aren't David Lease.
Anyway, for at least one of them that I know about, it was done via sponsorships that required the skater to keep skating. I am less salty about that because it is doubtful that sponsors would have sponsored an up-and-coming skater. Plus, sponsors have reasons why they sponsor who they sponsor that can be mysterious and they have no duty to develop the sport like USFS does.
No one is forcing 30 year old Jason Brown to skate if he really doesn't want to, though. And while you and many others tried to be convincing of his apparent massive decline in overall skating quality (see whatever GP discussion where we went in circles about his PCS being too high for having a lesser tech content or whatever it ended up being), he's worked his ass off to get back into the best shape within his current capabilities and should have won the free skate yesterday at World Team Trophy, with the highest PCS both here and at Worlds in the free skate of the entire fields.
There has been talk around the skating community that the USFS has been doing this for years. But sure, they started those 'unfounded' rumors before Jason was even skating so that 30 years later he could be smeared.
I have been hearing this -- that USFS has been paying this or that skater to stay in -- since the early 90s from people I know personally who are heavily involved in skating and in a position to know. No, I'm not going to name them. But they aren't David Lease.
Anyway, for at least one of them that I know about, it was done via sponsorships that required the skater to keep skating. I am less salty about that because it is doubtful that sponsors would have sponsored an up-and-coming skater. Plus, sponsors have reasons why they sponsor who they sponsor that can be mysterious and they have no duty to develop the sport like USFS does.
Really, if he hated it so much and didn't want to pursue skating further, you really think he wouldn't say screw it, I'll tour and make money doing other things within the sport? He's already dabbled in choreography (for Grassl of all people, amongst others) and I'm sure he could easily turn around and have people lined up at the rink waiting for him to choreograph.
I heard ramblings too, but for all we know USFS is just continuing to fund the cost of his skating. Which, newsflash, isn't really that different than what many other countries do, especially as he continues to be a top 10 in the World skater. I know skaters who have not paid a single dollar of any facet of skating costs since they've reached the elite level, and will have all of the prize money still banked when they do retire.
MacMadame
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Ahem. I was the one, when people were saying in the Fall that he'd lost many of his jumps and should just retire as he'd never get them back, pointed out that it was the Fall and he had plenty of time to get them back if he buckled down and trained. I did think his PCS were too high because his programs had enough errors that it took you out of it and negatively impacted the rest of the program. This is no different than what you said about certain skaters yesterday who had really crappy skates, in fact. In particular, I recall you bitching about Ilia's PCS being too high.
(And I agree they were too high for that mess he put out.)I definitely was concerned when he didn't show up at Nationals and said he had boot problems that kept him from training as he wanted. Thankfully, he did get those jumps back by Worlds despite that. So, yeah, he had time and those saying he was finished in the Fall were wrong.
Not to mention, where is anyone saying he doesn't want to stay in and that's our objection? It's about where USFS spends its money and how it develops its skaters. I want to see more focus on the future and less on being risk-averse and sticking with known quantities. It's fine if you disagree, but don't act like everyone who disagrees with you is either nuts or a Jason hater.
No, your quote was more or less that 'if he weren't Jason, his PCS would be lower' and that it's not fair that they are selectively used in such a way, even if he was deserving of the mid-80's or whatever he got there-- which I'm fairly certain you also said, too. I can find the exchange if needed. Actually, I'm adding it in here so that we don't have to talk in more circles over it.I did think his PCS were too high because his programs had enough errors that it took you out of it and negatively impacted the rest of the program. This is no different than what you said about certain skaters yesterday who had really crappy skates, in fact. In particular, I recall you bitching about Ilia's PCS being too high.
And Ilia skated right through his program looking like he was in pain and taking out what little choreography he may have had in the first 3 minutes. So yes, from an actual rules and criteria standpoint, his PCS is ludicrous. Much different than what you stated as your reasoning.
I didn't claim you are nuts or a Jason hater.. although you sure do put a lot of angst into something that your sources don't seem to even know much about, just like everyone else regarding his financial situation.You or I don't know where USFS is allocating its money precisely, but all of us can see that there are many skaters down the rankings that continue to get ample opportunity and funding. This is a skater who has an outside shot at an Olympic medal, and you're worried about USFS continuing to put money into him? Okay.
The skaters from the 90s obviously aren't Jason or any other contemporary skater, so I still don't know where your credible source is about what is going on now. (I remember reading that a skater in the 90s was getting appearance fees to compete in certain events important to the USFSA and the network, and I think it was a worthwhile investment. I don't think any money was taken away from any other skater as a result. In fact, the skater's participation probably helped the USFSA get more money that it could spend on skater development.)
You have said nothing (much less provided any credible specifics and sources regarding Jason or any other contemporary skater) to show that any skater has received funding at the cost of future skaters.
Also, I don't see that USFS is being risk averse. Plenty of other skaters have been given opportunities. They just haven't capitalized on them.
Thank goodness we have Jason (and Ilia and Amber and Isabeau and now Alysa again) or NBC and Peacock might just abandon showing us figure skating. There's something to be said for known quantities because there wouldn't be nearly as much interest in buying tickets and watching figure skating if we had Torgy and Camden (or name your "risky" skater) as America's primary skaters. And USFS wouldn't be receiving as much money and inspiration for future American skaters.
I agree with you.
I think people who believe basic skating skills are developed at a young age need to have a good look at how Sui Wenjing's basic skating used to look when she was younger, before she developed to where she was (or is, seeing that she's coming back). Same goes for Shen/Zhao.
Basic skating is developed through loads of ice time and monetary investment. Not everyone is able to do that through their careers, as much as some might delude themselves into believing otherwise.
I think Orser taught him to be more powerful across the ice.
I don't believe his basic skating quality is as good anymore though.
gkelly
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So is that USFS paying the skater to stay in, or a sponsor paying the skater if they keep competing?
Does USFS broker these deals or funnel the money?
kwanfan1818
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Sponsorships tend to be like that, ie, you have to keep doing what made you appealing to the public who will buy your stuff or who will represent your cause, greenwash your business, enhance your reputation,, etc. Very few people reach iconic status and either transcend or pivot into something else that’s notable, like a Maria Callas.
MacMadame
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This entire conversation is going in circles and I'm bored... We aren't going to agree about this so I don't see the point in repeating our positions over and over.
I'm not sure how saying "this has been going on as long as I've been aware, which is since the 90s" has turned into "my source told me about something that happened in the 90s."
Anyway, I think it's pretty clear to most of us that USFS funnels money to certain skaters in various ways.
I don't think that's true with athletes. Back when they couldn't take money and still be in the Olympic track, many didn't get sponsorship until after they retired. Even athletes who can get money while competing continue getting sponsorships after they retire.
kwanfan1818
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It's no longer back when they couldn't take money: it's been over a generation since they've been allowed to get sponsorships while they are competing. And even back then sponsorship didn't necessarily last very long, an Olympic cycle if they were lucky: it was about who was going to take their place on the Wheaties box. The lucky few in skating who are paid to commentate get to remain in the public eye: while people might have remembered Lipinski for her Olympic gold medal -- if they didn't mis-remember Kwan winning -- who would really think about Weir if he wasn't on NBC/Peacock?
Athletes do get sponsorships after they retire, but they tend to be in small sports where they are kings, often for niche sport equipment, or major sports, where major athletes get sponsorships and have more opportunities to be commentators/expert analysts for local stations. There are also more opportunities for major sport local heroes in being recruited for ads for a local car dealer or get appearance fees for signing cards, balls, and programs.
Brown is unlikely to get major/national product sponsorships after he stops skating, but as an ambassador to a program or as a motivational speaker, sure, but not the same. And I'm not sure he'd have sponsorships if he wasn't on tour, volunteering, and being with his family, which gives him a lot of material to be a social media presence.
jlai
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If paying athletes is a long standing practice, then at least they are not doing it to one athlete only (favoritism).
Whether paying athlete should be a practice is another discussion. I think no, right now, because feds are likely come pressed for $$ these days. (unlike the 90s when it was more popular)
Whether paying athlete should be a practice is another discussion. I think no, right now, because feds are likely come pressed for $$ these days. (unlike the 90s when it was more popular)
Theatregirl1122
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Well, Ilia in 2022. But there is no 2022 Ilia now, so that point is moot.
YukiNieve
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Since many people asked for them, Jason decided to sell his merch on a limited basis (one week only). It seems you can ship them overseas (I did).
skatingguy
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DreamSkates
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He had a great sp and difficult lp. It happens. I'm looking forward to seeing him next year.
Karen-W
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This has been floating around on X for about a day and I'm with Torgy... "just... what?" Stuff like this makes me think that post-Milano, when Ilia does "go all ham" a quint may very well be achievable. He's just so crazy talented & his jump technique is that natural.
Tinycities
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If I remember correctly, he was also getting hammered on twitter and Reddit the entire day regarding political opinions. People were celebrating his nightmare skate afterwards. I don’t agree with the political stuff, but no one deserves to have that happen. I don’t know him, clearly, so I don’t know if he had seen it or not, but I did see that he was being repeatedly tagged for hours before his skate. It’s not an excuse, but he was very consistent all year before worlds and I’m not ready to write him off as quickly as others are.
Spiralgraph
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I'm not willing to write him off either. Besides reliable Ilya and Jason, if we start dismissing all of our other men who compete poorly a couple of times but many times skate well who do we have left? I'm not obsessing about thos precious three spots business but remember Vincent skated lousy at worlds, didn't make the free then that ignited in him his determination anf fight to skate well the rest of his career. That can happen to Torgy as well (likewise Camden,Jimmy etc.) No one skates clean all the time, even Ilya at his first senior worlds.
mtnskater
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Seems crazy that Torgy would be on X or Reddit during Worlds competition. And what were the political views he was being hammered for??
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