U.S. Men 2021-22 season news & updates

[Trillian]

And who is to say if having the Olympic experience with ZERO pressure wouldn't have been a good learning opportunity for Ilia in preparation for Worlds?

Well, USFS decided to send three skaters who had already established themselves as three of the very best in the world, instead of using the Olympics as a “learning opportunity.” Worlds was Ilia’s learning opportunity.

I'm sorry, but, no, no one here is ever going to convince me that sending Brown to the Olympics was the better decision, not especially for the long term future of US figure skating, even if Brown did make the most of it and gave NBC the peppy, rah rah social media content it clearly wanted from at least one of our US men's skaters.

You can disagree with the Olympic team selection without constantly finding new ways to call Jason’s skating and competitive results worthless. He didn’t just show up and make a couple of Instagram posts. He was one of the top skaters in the world all season, skated two clean programs at the Olympics, and there were a lot of people who felt the quality of his skating made the event as a whole more enjoyable to watch than it would have been without him. Long term, it’s also probably a good thing for skating as a whole to have a someone demonstrating the kind of skating we might see if we put more emphasis on high quality elements and skating skills rather than just counting jumps (especially given some of the conversation around women’s skating right now). I’m sorry he’s not your favorite. Ilia might turn out to be the kind of skater who leaves a lasting impact on the sport, but Jason has done that, too.

The US had at least four men who would have been great choices for the Olympic team (apparently even five; way to go, Camden!). The selection committee picked three of them within the boundaries of the criteria they had set and the information they had available at the time. While it might be fun to discuss this again every time Ilia or Jason does anything for the rest of their lives (“Ilia Malinin’s daughter Tatiana the Second just landed five quints in her Olympic free skate that was choreographed by Jason Brown, noOoWwWw who do you think should have gone to the 2022 Olympics??!?”), we could just … let it go.

 

[Bookslut]

Well, USFS decided to send three skaters who had already established themselves as three of the very best in the world, instead of using the Olympics as a “learning opportunity.” Worlds was Ilia’s learning opportunity.



You can disagree with the Olympic team selection without constantly finding new ways to call Jason’s skating and competitive results worthless. He didn’t just show up and make a couple of Instagram posts. He was one of the top skaters in the world all season, skated two clean programs at the Olympics, and there were a lot of people who felt the quality of his skating made the event as a whole more enjoyable to watch than it would have been without him. Long term, it’s also probably a good thing for skating as a whole to have a someone demonstrating the kind of skating we might see if we put more emphasis on high quality elements and skating skills rather than just counting jumps (especially given some of the conversation around women’s skating right now). I’m sorry he’s not your favorite. Ilia might turn out to be the kind of skater who leaves a lasting impact on the sport, but Jason has done that, too.

The US had at least four men who would have been great choices for the Olympic team (apparently even five; way to go, Camden!). The selection committee picked three of them within the boundaries of the criteria they had set and the information they had available at the time. While it might be fun to discuss this again every time Ilia or Jason does anything for the rest of their lives (“Ilia Malinin’s daughter Tatiana the Second just landed five quints in her Olympic free skate that was choreographed by Jason Brown, noOoWwWw who do you think should have gone to the 2022 Olympics??!?”), we could just … let it go.

Amen!

 

[Frau Muller]

Cross-posting from the KnC Worlds subforum, as this promises to be an historical day for US figure skating! Prepare to celebrate very soon!!!!


Happy for Vincent, returning to the Worlds podium…and Team USA remains on track to MEDAL IN EVERY DISCIPLINE AT A WORLDS!!! When’s the last time that that has happened…1967?

M - Gary Visconti - bronze
W - Peggy Fleming - gold
P - Kaufmanns - bronze
D - Dyer/Carrell - silver

…shhh…I was 11, in Puerto Rico, and watched on ABC Wide World of Sports…shhh

1967 World Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[baramin]

Camden-- Not only 3rd in the free (small world medal winner!), not only the only American to go completely clean, not only 5th overall, but we can wuzrob him of 4th? Seeded next season? I love a skater who could literally place anywhere at any given time.

Vincent--after the olys, so thrilled he can walk away from this season with some hardware (in addition to that team silver/gold that will arrive in the mail 10 years down the lines). Maybe not the skate he wanted, but he gets to be on the podium and know that, barring disaster in dance, he's the one who stepped up to make the US medaling in all events here possible

Ilia--lots of good stuff here. Not what he hoped for, but Nathan had a disappointing first worlds, too. Now he's got some experience to grow on

 

[livetoskate]

Oh, mannnn... ISU is killing it on their IG story... check out this video of Vincent and Camden when Vincent realized he had medaled...

Watch this story by ISU Figure Skating ⛸ on Instagram before it disappears.

312k Followers, 1,116 Following, 3,125 Posts

instagram.com

How wonderful that Camden and Vincent were able to share their victories together. From Instagram in the past, they along with Tomoki seem like really close friends. This was an amazing competition and a real nail biter. Ilia can be proud of his accomplishments, and he has the absolute best quad lutz in the world. I hope he goes on to win junior worlds. Also, I'm thrilled for Stephane Lambiel being the coach who pulled Shoma out of his downhill funk a few years ago. It seems like yesterday when Stephane and Carolina Kostner were playing ping pong in the skaters' lounge at Worlds 2003 in DC. Congrats to all the skaters who made it to Worlds and gave us amazing skating memories.

 

[Karen-W]

Well, USFS decided to send three skaters who had already established themselves as three of the very best in the world, instead of using the Olympics as a “learning opportunity.” Worlds was Ilia’s learning opportunity.



You can disagree with the Olympic team selection without constantly finding new ways to call Jason’s skating and competitive results worthless. He didn’t just show up and make a couple of Instagram posts. He was one of the top skaters in the world all season, skated two clean programs at the Olympics, and there were a lot of people who felt the quality of his skating made the event as a whole more enjoyable to watch than it would have been without him. Long term, it’s also probably a good thing for skating as a whole to have a someone demonstrating the kind of skating we might see if we put more emphasis on high quality elements and skating skills rather than just counting jumps (especially given some of the conversation around women’s skating right now). I’m sorry he’s not your favorite. Ilia might turn out to be the kind of skater who leaves a lasting impact on the sport, but Jason has done that, too.

The US had at least four men who would have been great choices for the Olympic team (apparently even five; way to go, Camden!). The selection committee picked three of them within the boundaries of the criteria they had set and the information they had available at the time. While it might be fun to discuss this again every time Ilia or Jason does anything for the rest of their lives (“Ilia Malinin’s daughter Tatiana the Second just landed five quints in her Olympic free skate that was choreographed by Jason Brown, noOoWwWw who do you think should have gone to the 2022 Olympics??!?”), we could just … let it go.

Go chastise the people who have been bringing this subject up again today in both this thread and the Worlds FS thread. It's consistently been the Jason Brown-ubers who are trying very hard to continue to justify the selection. As I said over in the FS thread, I don't see any way that the two sides are ever going to find any sort of agreement on this subject. I agree, it is over and should be put in the past, but it won't be as long as the Brown-ubers are going to keep trying to justify the choice to send the 4th place finisher over the 2nd place finisher.

Christ, I never have said that I dislike Jason's skating. I've found him enjoyable and wonderful to watch - and everyone knows I think "Sinnerman" is one of the greatest SPs ever. What I dislike, intensely, are all of his uber fans who twist themselves every which way trying to make it seem like his contribution to US men's skating, especially over the last quad, is much larger than it really is. In fifteen years, maybe people will realize he's more like Adam Rippon than Johnny Weir - a lovely, artistic skater who was a decent, reliable Worlds lower top 10 skater with nary a Worlds medal to his name.

Who knows what the future holds for Ilia? All I know is that I'd rather go with a future shot gaining crucial experience rather than someone who doesn't have a chance at medaling that year or any year. And, I'll gladly point out that Ilia's score today to finish 9th was higher than the score Jason earned at Worlds last year to finish 6th, and it was higher than any score Jason earned during the fall. If anything, one might argue that Jason's Olympics result was unexpectedly better than should have been expected.

 

[Vagabond]

Camden-- Not only 3rd in the free (small world medal winner!), not only the only American to go completely clean, not only 5th overall, but we can wuzrob him of 4th?

Camden wuzrobbed by the Starting Order!

 

[Trillian]

Go chastise the people who have been bringing this subject up again today in both this thread and the Worlds FS thread.

I haven’t been in the FS thread, but I know you weren’t the one who brought it up here. I’ve also been around long enough to know this one will never completely die no matter how much we might wish it would.

In fifteen years, maybe people will realize he's more like Adam Rippon than Johnny Weir - a lovely, artistic skater who was a decent, reliable Worlds lower top 10 skater with nary a Worlds medal to his name.

I guess that’s possible, but I doubt it. Much as I liked Adam’s skating (and I really, really did) Jason was a lot more technically consistent over the years, and had quite a few programs even beyond “Sinnerman” that people will remember. But I do think a lot of it will depend on the direction skating takes in the future. If it keeps being a race to the bottom in terms of valuing jump rotations over everything else, then I guess history will tell us that the skating world looked at Jason and said, “Meh, we don’t need that.” If there’s any kind of reevaluation in terms of assigning more appropriate GOEs and PCS scores, or giving more weight to non-jump aspects of skating, Jason will have been a part of that (along with Satoko and maybe a few other skaters from their generation). It’s one of those things we’re not going to know until we know. But either way, there will always be a lot of people who appreciated that he was doing that kind of skating when hardly anyone else really was.

Either way, though, I think the important thing is that it’s possible to have a conversation about the Olympic team selection without tearing down any of the skaters involved. They’re all great skaters and I suspect when the dust settles, all of the top four U.S. men this season are going to be the kind of skaters people will remember for a long time. That’s why it was such a hard decision.

 

[Spikefan]

Camden wuzrobbed by the Starting Order!

At least he wasn’t robbed of third.

 

[baramin]

Genuinely not trying to take part in the debate, just noting for my own fun: Jason's Oly score would have given him bronze here. Fully understand why he wasn't here, that he likely wouldn't have repeated those exact skates & that podiums don't seem to be what drive him, but still a little bummed that he didn't skate at 2018/2022 worlds, his 2 best chances at becoming a world medalist

 

[once_upon]

I think a post Olympics World Championship where no Hanyu, no Chen, no Brown, no Jin, is a bit different than the Olympic stage.

It was an opportunity for Illia and Camden to shine and hopefully set the US up for the next Quad.

IMO the 6 US men who competed in Olympics and Worlds did the jobs they needed to do.

 

[jlai]

This is just another one of those Oksana vs Nancy debate that can go on forever. They are all worthy skaters, and some will skate better than others at different times. Peace!

 

[kwanfan1818]

Not what he hoped for, but Nathan had a disappointing first worlds,

Same with Patrick Chan in 2008: he was glorious at Nationals, beating Buttle, and not so much at Worlds. The next year, he was Worlds silver medallist.

 

[Jammers]

The fact that a 17 year old was a clean or even semi clean skate away from a World medal says how close he already is to breaking through and he's at the age where the improvements can be seen in just a few months. Now he just needs to end his Junior career with a world title to put a stamp on this season.

 

[once_upon]

If the concern is that Illia loses his Olympic experience it doesn't speak too highly of what people think of his longevity.

 

[Karen-W]

If the concern is that Illia loses his Olympic experience it doesn't speak too highly of what people think of his longevity.

No, it's that he loses out on the valuable Olympic experience this time around to set him up for Milano-Cortina.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Just reminding everyone of the nonstop story put out there by NBC, Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and yes, even Nathan that their first Olympic games off the podium prepared them for the pressures of their 2nd where they received gold. Does it mean Ilia will never get a gold medal? No. But look what happened to Nathan when we at least expected him to medal in his first.

The idea that you give the future opportunities to develop isn't coming out of nowhere. Especially when we talk about nations developing skating programs or new skaters in any country and what it means to give them competition experience.

 

[Jammers]

Just reminding everyone of the nonstop story put out there by NBC, Scott Hamilton, Brian Boitano and yes, even Nathan that their first Olympic games off the podium prepared them for the pressures of their 2nd where they received gold. Does it mean Ilia will never get a gold medal? No. But look what happened to Nathan when we at least expected him to medal in his first.

The idea that you give the future opportunities to develop isn't coming out of nowhere. Especially when we talk about nations developing skating programs or new skaters in any country and what it means to give them competition experience.

Big difference though Ilia will be much older and experienced then those skaters if he does make it to Mila in 2026. He might even have a world title under his belt by that time.

 

[VGThuy]

There’s been as many examples as skaters doing their best at their first Olympics or not doing much differently at their second. It is what it is. Everyone has their own path. That said, the USFS should probably rethink the whole BOW and only give consideration to skaters who seem to consistently show they can score in the top 3-5 or something.

 

[Karen-W]

There’s been as many examples as skaters doing their best at their first Olympics or not doing much differently at their second. It is what it is. Everyone has their own path. That said, the USFS should probably rethink the whole BOW and only give consideration to skaters who seem to consistently show they can score in the top 3-5 or something.

I agree with this 100% - and I think we touched on it in the USFS Selection Criteria thread after Nationals, because it really didn't make any sense to have certain skaters/teams prioritized merely because they're solid lower Top 10 material.

 

[VGThuy]

I agree with this 100% - and I think we touched on it in the USFS Selection Criteria thread after Nationals, because it really didn't make any sense to have certain skaters/teams prioritized merely because they're solid lower Top 10 material.

I think that makes sense in a field where we didn’t have the depth we had this season and the alternative is a surprise top 3 finish by a skater who consistently showed he is not top ten material, but then that still doesn’t seem quite fair if he loses out to someone who makes lower top ten at best. That said Jason was better than only lower top ten skater.

 

[dawnie]

Congrats to Vincent on another World medal after an emotional rollercoaster of a season! So well deserved.

Noticing his constant haters are being awfully quiet...

 

[Karen-W]

I think that makes sense in a field where we didn’t have the depth we had this season and the alternative is a surprise top 3 finish by a skater who consistently showed he is not top ten material, but then that still doesn’t seem quite fair if he loses out to someone who makes lower top ten at best. That said Jason was better than only lower top ten skater.

But he wasn't. He finished 6th, which is the lower half of the top 10. Four of the top 10 from Beijing weren't here in Montpellier, but Zhou, Pulkinen & Tomono, who all finished above him here weren't in Beijing either, so maybe he would have managed 10th in that field (or better, with no pressure/expectations). I just don't see much point in prioritizing a Brown or K-Chen (or even a Hawayek/Baker, much as I wanted them to get their Olympic experience) unless they finish top 3 at Nats and earn that spot at the last competition before the Olympics.

 

[Trillian]

That said, the USFS should probably rethink the whole BOW and only give consideration to skaters who seem to consistently show they can score in the top 3-5 or something.

I’m sure they’ll make adjustments every time. But frankly, a few tweaks to the criteria and people are going to be talking about what to do with some of Vincent’s more questionable results, and going strictly in order of nationals finish would probably have had a lot more people fighting over that close result between 3rd and 4th.

We have four skaters whose fans are making a case that they deserved to go to the Olympics… because we have four skaters who all had a good case to go to the Olympics. We can adjust the selection criteria all we want, and a situation like that is still going to hurt every single time, no matter which way it goes.

All the U.S. men at the Olympics and Worlds made really good use of their opportunities. I’m super impressed by all three at Worlds and looking forward to seeing what all these guys do next.

 

[VGThuy]

Speaking of Vincent, he technically medaled at every event he competed in this season. I hope he realizes that and come away with this season proud. And though his Olympics didn’t go his way, he will get either a silver or a gold Olympic medal out of it a year or so from now.

 

[Spiralgraph]

Speaking of Vincent, he technically medaled at every event he competed in this season. I hope he realizes that and come away with this season proud. And though his Olympics didn’t go his way, he will get either a silver or a gold Olympic medal out of it a year or so from now.

At the speed in which some Olympic decisions are resolved, I think that time table may be overly optimistic. I hope I am wrong and they all get their Olympic medals ASAP but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[once_upon]

I doubt it will be resolved before the next olympics.. it took what 2+ years for Ben Johnson Tobe stripped of his 1988 Olympic medal?

And Canada didn't start a war after those Olympics.

 

[Trillian]

I just don't see much point in prioritizing a Brown or K-Chen (or even a Hawayek/Baker, much as I wanted them to get their Olympic experience) unless they finish top 3 at Nats and earn that spot at the last competition before the Olympics.

He had a stronger and more consistent international track record than either of your comparisons there, both in the current season and overall. I adore H&B in particular and think they tend to be underscored, but you’re drawing an equivalency here between a skater who was good enough to make the final group at the Olympics vs. some who were never realistically going to be in the top ten.

If you think about it that way, we had four men at nationals who all conceivably could have been competitive for the final group at the Olympics. That’s not remotely comparable to the depth we had in any other discipline, so it’s going to be a different conversation.

 

[Rhumba d’Amour]

Oh, mannnn... ISU is killing it on their IG story... check out this video of Vincent and Camden when Vincent realized he had medaled...

Watch this story by ISU Figure Skating ⛸ on Instagram before it disappears.

312k Followers, 1,116 Following, 3,125 Posts

instagram.com

That was beautiful, thanks for posting it here.

 

[Karen-W]

He had a stronger and more consistent international track record than either of your comparisons there, both in the current season and overall. I adore H&B in particular and think they tend to be underscored, but you’re drawing an equivalency here between a skater who was good enough to make the final group at the Olympics vs. some who were never realistically going to be in the top ten.

If you think about it that way, we had four men at nationals who all conceivably could have been competitive for the final group at the Olympics. That’s not remotely comparable to the depth we had in any other discipline, so it’s going to be a different conversation.

Sure, but there were also some skaters not in the Men's comp in Beijing (Vincent, Kolyada, not to mention Keegan wasn't anywhere near his best due to the whole Covid travel drama) who could have easily knocked Jason out of the final flight for the FS. He got as lucky there as Mariah, Karen, and our Pairs teams did at Worlds. It isn't false equivalency because he was qualified in Group 3, same as Mariah, Karen, Cain-Gribble/LeDuc, Calalang/Johnson, Lu/Mitrofanov, Hawayek/Baker and Green/Parsons. Just because he happened to luck into a slightly shallower Men's field in Beijing doesn't mean that he was any more likely to make top 10 than any of those other skaters (and both Mariah and C-G/L did make top 10, FWIW).

I don't disagree that the US Men's field was, going into Nationals, stronger than the other three disciplines, and they've definitely proven, once again, just how incredibly deep and good they are. I mean, we have 5 guys who have managed to place 1st at the Olympics, 3rd at Worlds, 5th at Worlds, 6th at the Olympics, and 9th (in his first major senior international competition) at Worlds. Only Japan has that kind of depth in any discipline.

Dance is the only other discipline that comes close, and I'd have been disappointed but okay if GrePar had beaten HawBak at Nats and gone to the Olympics instead, because the two teams are as comparable, IMO, as Brown & Malinin are. The point is, I don't think that consistently scoring, during the season, Top 10 at Worlds is enough to justify being selected to the Olympic team unless you back it up with placing high enough at Nats to earn one of the spots outright (1st-2nd if only 2 spots, 1st-3rd if 3 spots).