The Shibutanis Thread 4: Ready for Paradise

Spun Silver said:
Oh, if I knew Alex was sick at the 2015 GPF I forgot. Lucky you to be able to attend so many comps. It’s not really an option for me, and both the times I thought I really could, something happened to prevent it. I feel DOOM, as an French-speaking ex of mine used to say.
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Well you know how much I love Mao, I went to those competitions not exactly to see the Shibs, I went for Mao, even the GPF of 2016, I thought that she would qualify :wuzrobbed. Anyway, I was lucky enough for Maia and Alex to be there, I was doubly happy. I hope you can go to a competition soon, it's great and you can see the practices.
 
I saw Fix You and Evolution both live.

Both very powerful. Fix You at Skate Canada & Worlds. Evolution was not as powerful early in the season at Skate America; but by Nationals, it was quite moving.


VIETgrlTerifa said:
people keep saying how their twizzles are slower than others.
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Maia & Alex have the best twizzles in the world.

In my completely biased opinion, they also have the best positions in the world. Exceptional posture.

The best synchronicity. Every move feels like an extension of one another.

Together, they are more impressive than alone.

They are not the fastest, most powerful team across the ice. But neither are Virtue & Moir. (The fastest teams right now, IMO, are among the largest physically. P&C, W&P, H&D). But speed across the ice is different than rotational speed. Scott has always done very fast, exceptional rotational lifts.

The Shibs' dance spin is fabulous. And they turn very fast & crisp within the twizzles in their footwork sequences. The twizzles down the ice don't turn as quickly as a tighter position--one close to the body--would, but the positions they hold show off their perfect unison. It's easier to hide a lack of synchronicity within a tight position.

After the Shibs, I would say that Stepanova & Bukin and Hubbell & Donohue have the next best twizzles. All three teams, IMO, should earn plus 3s.

I find it very odd how people seem to criticize the Shibs' strengths. They have flaws just like everyone. But the twizzles, their posture, their positions, their attention to detail, the way they relate to the music--all very STRONG. And chemistry as well. That charm they have with each other on screen, they have that on the ice. It's not the same kind of chemistry as many of the other teams, but it's powerful & special.
 
Dobre said:
The Shibs' dance spin is fabulous. And they turn very fast & crisp within the twizzles in their footwork sequences. .
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Their twizzles in the step seq are amazing, the first time I watched their new FD, for a moment I thought their twizzles in the circular step seq were their official twizzles. And it is remarkable because teams like V/M, P/C and H/D have had evident and some costly mistakes in their twizzles in their step seq but Maia and Alex do those like it is nothing. I think that's the best proof that when it comes to doing twizzles, they are the most skilled team
 
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Where do ice coverage and speed fall under judging? They aren't written as ice coverage and speed in the GOE requirements so I'm just curious. (whereas for dance spins, it is in fact spelled out as fast)
 
DreamsofBliss said:
Where do ice coverage and speed fall under judging? They aren't written as ice coverage and speed in the GOE requirements so I'm just curious. (whereas for dance spins, it is in fact spelled out as fast)
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They are in PCS. Speed is under skating skills, and ice coverage is implied in speed and "effortless power." See the chart in this article being talked about in a GSD thread.
http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2...k-trophy-all-components-are-not-created-equal
 
Spun Silver said:
They are in PCS. Speed is under skating skills, and ice coverage is implied in speed and "effortless power." See the chart in this article being talked about in a GSD thread.
http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2...k-trophy-all-components-are-not-created-equal
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So...if they have good ice coverage and speed in their twizzles than it should be reflected in PCS which makes it hard to compare how they are being judged on those elements of the twizzles in comparison to others since PCS is for the whole program. (i was asking about twizzles specifically sorry if that was unclear!)
 
DreamsofBliss said:
So...if they have good ice coverage and speed in their twizzles than it should be reflected in PCS which makes it hard to compare how they are being judged on those elements of the twizzles in comparison to others since PCS is for the whole program. (i was asking about twizzles specifically sorry if that was unclear!)
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I don't see anything about twizzle speed in the handbook either! I was looking at levels as well as GOE. ??
 
I had Mr. P watch the Shibs SD/FD and the FDs of Chock and Bates and Hubbell and Donahue this evening. He loved the Shibs programs -- he did not feel like Paradise was anything like Fix You and was amazed that they did those programs without having done a senior B before hand.

He liked C/B and H/D less so. I promise I did not force him to have these opinions. He actually ended up watching the Shibs FD again after watching Chock and Bates because he felt their twizzles were slow and wanted to see fast ones, LOL.

He did like Chock and Bates slightly more than Hubbell and Donohue, which was interesting. He felt that they (and Madison especially) had to many unnecessary arm movements (I swear, again, I did not force him to say any of these things). He liked some of Chock and Bates' choreography but wasn't crazy about the twizzles and didn't have the flow the Shibs had.

He said all three dance couples were great, however, and admits that this was just his personal preference.

ETA: I've seen the Shibs twice live-- Nationals 2014 and Worlds 2016. Nationals 2014 was sadly not the best showing of them -- they were tenantive in the SD and by the end of it, I got why Chock and Bates were ahead of them at the time. Worlds they were much, much better. I loved Fix You, of course, but the SD was actually the bigger highlight for me to see in person -- so much personality and so fun.

Things look good for me to go to Nationals this year, so I'll get to see this year's programs in person.
 
I have only gotten to see the Shibs live once...2014 SA. So a pretty long time ago. But I am going to SA again this season and I am excited to get to see the Shibs live again.

@Spun Silver I hope you get to go to a competition soon!
 
chapis said:
No, I can´t see it either https://imgur.com/a/2ZjC2

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/2016-17 ID Marking Guide for GOE for SD and FD updated 200716.pdf

it doesn't even mention synchrony :confused: so :rolleyes:
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Yes, and some ice dance commentators, including former ice dancers/skaters themselves, pay so much attention to the speed and ice coverage of twizzles, but obviously they haven't really read the most current rules about GOE for twizzles. Like, when commentating Virtue/Moir's FD performance at NHK Trophy, the regular Russian Eurosport commenator mentioned that the majority of the judges had given them +3 on their twizzles, but Maxim Staviski, who was commentating with him, said that their twizzles in the FD were not so outstanding at all. He did not say anything as to why, but from his previous comments about other ice dancer's twizzles it was clear that he thinks so because V/M's twizzles are not very fast and don't cover as much ice as some others. Rotational speed and ice coverage has been the main things that he (Staviski) has praised about some ice dancer's twizzles before.

And it was not even that long ago when the speed of rotations and also ice coverage (if I remember correctly) were among the criteria for twizzles GOE, so I can understand those experts/commenators who still pay a lot of attention to that.

As for synchronicity, I too find it surprising that this criteria was also taken out, but I guess ISU ice dance experts probably thought that it can fall under continuous, smooth, seamless and flawless etc. turns, as turns of an ice dancer who is at fault for loosing synchronicity with their partner can't really be smooth, seamless or flawless.
 
lauravvv said:
Yes, and some ice dance commentators, including former ice dancers/skaters themselves, pay so much attention to the speed and ice coverage of twizzles, but obviously they haven't really read the most current rules about GOE for twizzles. Like, when commentating Virtue/Moir's FD performance at NHK Trophy, the regular Russian Eurosport commenator mentioned that the majority of the judges had given them +3 on their twizzles, but Maxim Staviski, who was commentating with him, said that their twizzles in the FD were not so outstanding at all. He did not say anything as to why, but from his previous comments about other ice dancer's twizzles it was clear that he thinks so because V/M's twizzles are not very fast and don't cover as much ice as some others. Rotational speed and ice coverage has been the main things that he (Staviski) has praised about some ice dancer's twizzles before.
.
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Well but the thing is that following only those criteria there is no reason for Shibs don´t get +3. Like I have said before, it is okay if they want give +3 to P/C, even V/M got more points in Skate Canada with these twizzles https://youtu.be/C9AGxUob3v8?t=158, but then why Maia and Alex can´t get +3 too?. H/D are out of sync in the second and third set of twizzles in NHK in the FD but they got higher points than Maia and Alex too.
 
I saw Virtue/Moir at Skate Canada this year and I thought their FD twizzles were very fast, of course they do a lot of steps in between to cover ice better but the crossing of the twizzles, the phrasing to the MAD! and then the final set out to the Roxanne! in the lyrics were soooo effective. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Also "speed" alone isn't a criteria, the PCS chart says:
the clarity of technique and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed
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Which the Shibs are more than adequate at, can you imagine them zipping across the ice the way they do in the second half of Paradise at the beginning? Their speed and transitions throughout the program are all appropriate.

And lucky all of you for being able to see the Shibs, I'm yet to be so lucky.
 
Spun Silver said:
I don't see anything about twizzle speed in the handbook either! I was looking at levels as well as GOE. ??
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SPEED is included in the section "Adjustments to Grade of Execution". In the subsection "Applicable to all required elements (except Pattern Dance)" it says "Speed of rotations across the ice and/or maintained or accelerated during the Element" should increase the element by 1 grade level.
 
People want sell the idea of Shibs skating small, slow, and even to say their SS are poor, wich is the biggest lie. But when people try underestimate their twizzles is where I easily can notice the worth and real intentions of their comments. I think ¨ okay, if you can´t see how good their twizzles are (twizzles are an easy element to evaluate) and you praise others who are only average, so I guess you will have a hard time recognizing other aspects of skating that reflect quality ¨.
 
Cayuse said:
SPEED is included in the section "Adjustments to Grade of Execution". In the subsection "Applicable to all required elements (except Pattern Dance)" it says "Speed of rotations across the ice and/or maintained or accelerated during the Element" should increase the element by 1 grade level.
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Thank you! So if a team has fast twizzles it can increase their GOE.
 
chapis said:
Well but the thing is that following only those criteria there is no reason for Shibs don´t get +3.
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I did not say anything about whether Maia and Alex deserve + 3 according to the current criteria, nor I meant to imply anything. I was just commentating on how the criteria have changed etc.


Cayuse said:
SPEED is included in the section "Adjustments to Grade of Execution". In the subsection "Applicable to all required elements (except Pattern Dance)" it says "Speed of rotations across the ice and/or maintained or accelerated during the Element" should increase the element by 1 grade level.
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Thank you for the information and correction, Cayuse. I remembered that the rotational speed of twizzles was one of the criteria not so long ago, and wondered when that had changed, as I did not see it among the main/basic criteria anymore. Did not think (or did not remember) that it was included with the adjustments to grade of execution.
 
It's strange that ice coverage isn't a listed criteria for GOE in twizzles as I remember when the Shibs used to have some of the fastest twizzles in the field some criticized them for not traveling as much in distance and I know Stepanova/Bukin's sit twizzles were criticized for that. That said, I see teams in the past four years have worked really hard to cover as much ice as possible. I think it's one of those things that may not be listed officially but is a feature many judges have in their mind when evaluating twizzles and simply a natural progression as teams try to one-up each other. That's the good thing about skating and competition. When the competition is close and even when things aren't listed in the IJS, competitors come up with ways to go above and beyond in order to differentiate themselves from the rest. Plus when your twizzles don't travel much, you run the risk of the twizzles not being counted as twizzles. It looks like for the FD, the Shibs should maybe think about adding more showy connecting steps as it's one of the +3 features.
 
Dobre said:
They are not the fastest, most powerful team across the ice. But neither are Virtue & Moir. (The fastest teams right now, IMO, are among the largest physically. P&C, W&P, H&D). But speed across the ice is different than rotational speed. Scott has always done very fast, exceptional rotational lifts.
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I think speed across ice also depends on the type of movement a team chooses to do. Some teams do a lot of side-by-side, very open skating, and so naturally, they look faster than skaters who do not do as much of it.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
It's strange that ice coverage isn't a listed criteria for GOE in twizzles as I remember when the Shibs used to have some of the fastest twizzles in the field some criticized them for not traveling as much in distance and I know Stepanova/Bukin's sit twizzles were criticized for that. That said, I see teams in the past four years have worked really hard to cover as much ice as possible. I think it's one of those things that may not be listed officially but is a feature many judges have in their mind when evaluating twizzles and simply a natural progression as teams try to one-up each other. That's the good thing about skating and competition. When the competition is close and even when things aren't listed in the IJS, competitors come up with ways to go above and beyond in order to differentiate themselves from the rest. Plus when your twizzles don't travel much, you run the risk of the twizzles not being counted as twizzles. It looks like for the FD, the Shibs should maybe think about adding more showy connecting steps as it's one of the +3 features.
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I agree that it's fun to see teams do it, but by not having it listed officially the judges can just sort of choose whether or not they are going to reward it and you end up with a bunch of bitter fans when a team seemingly doing less is scoring just as well or close to the same even though it's technically fair.

And then if the teams AREN'T rewarded for any risks or innovation they may end up axing it like Chock and Bates did with their twizzle entrance in the SD last year which is disappointing when you enjoyed it!
 
DreamsofBliss said:
From the same call:
Alex and Maia "not really" paying attention to other scores during the #GrandPrix. "It's difficult to glean any information from that,"Alex said during the media call.

Healthy attitude. Really looking forward to seeing their programs again at Skate America!
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That's actually wise. The scores that only matter are the ones you can help, which is your own. We've seen inconsistent scoring already this GP and it makes no sense to go crazy over other teams' scores since you can't really help that. Plus, the Shibs know more than anyone how one's scores can seriously change in a season. See their SD and FD scores at Skate Canada 2015 and then see 2016 Worlds.
 
Well, I guess he means that they are not obsessed with those scores but if someone is scoring very well at certain elements, I guess it is helpful see what they are doing to get those scores. At the same time it is helpful to see if someone got deductions to try to avoid making the same mistakes. Maybe that is Massimo and Marina´s job, because someone said that in Skate Canada Marina was sending the scores to someone.
 
I don't think the question was about that, but more about watching their competitor's scores (like Hubbell/Donohue's scores) and paying too much attention to it. If they did that, then it'll only psyche them out and make them neurotic (like me). Or it'll pump them up, but then they become too focused on what everyone else is doing and it's going to interfere with their mental game this season. They need to just keep getting input on how to improve their programs, allow Marina and Massimo to see what's maximizing points out there and figure out how to best incorporate that with the Shibs and add whatever changes to their planned content and practice, practice, practice. I think the worst thing for the Shibs is to make them too aware of all of the deductions they can incur if they make a mistake or error. I mean they're already criticized for being too careful. They need to just trust the material and elements as practiced and have confidence so they can perform freely and with more energy.
 
chapis said:
no, just in general. H/D L3 for the spin. S/D invalid element, the extreme drop of the score of Penny/Nich, the lost of L4 to L2 in the no touch step seq of B/S from Russia to China, etc.
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I guess the Shibs have their own history of fighting for levels to rely on. But it is good we know Marina is watching like a hawk. :)
 
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