The Problem with Body Image in Figure Skating

[Lanie]

There's a difference between obesity, another major problem, and encouraging already small athletes to become smaller still to fit an aesthetic that hurts their health (and performance--strong skaters do well, we don't have to be waifs watching how much WATER we drink because our coach told us). Tanith Belbin has spoken eloquently about it. So has Gracie Gold. It is a major issue.

 

[pat c]

Before Igor and Marina, USA ice dance hardly had any medalists for decades..

Go ahead change the "culture" and brainwash people into believing that "big is beautiful"
... but in sports you can't change the laws of physics..

No you can't change the law of physics, you can change people's perceptions of health tho.
Which leads us back to ok US didn't have any id medalists for years and Russia didn't have
that many lady singles skaters. What changed?

Hmm.......well ladies in the US seem to have had a ton of eating disorders and now it
seems like Russia has caught that bug too.

But yes you're right, you can't change a person's physiology by starving them to death.
So, it's key - the sport benefits by having healthy athletes. How to achieve that? Well
a change of attitude is the first step.

 

[giselle23]

This. While eating disorders are a serious issue in sport, it is a basic fact that with the same muscular development it will be easier to complete a jump with a lighter body. In the Butyrskaya interview thread she was quoted as saying some of her jumps only worked while she was at a certain weight.

But it can't be a one-size fits all type of analysis. How else to explain a powerful jumper like Tonya Harding, who didn't fit the light as a feather mold? Does this mean she would have been doing quads if she were a little bit lighter? Men are heavier but have stronger muscles which makes them better jumpers than women. Some women have stronger muscles than other women and could probably compete with more weight--if they could stand the negative reaction from fans, some coaches and, less explicitly, from judges.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Hmm.......well ladies in the US seem to have had a ton of eating disorders and now it
seems like Russia has caught that bug too.

I am not in favor of mutilating or starving oneself over a hobby, aka sports.. However… and here is my take on the situation.

Any activity, including a sport, requires a combination of physical and mental abilities, talent, to reach the top.
Some people got it, some people don’t.
Figure skating requires mental, physical and artistic abilities.
Physical requirements (in figure skating) have a range; a right combination/proportions of weight/height/muscles/coordination and few other elements. Please note I used words “range” and “right proportion of various elements”, and not exact measurements.

If a skater does not fit into that range/proportion specifically because of “weight” and inability to correlate it to muscles, strengths, height, then that person has choices:

- leave the sport and find another activity
- accept lesser results, skate with realistic expectations.

If for example a young lady is 5’3 and her natural weight is 115 lbs, and has a heavy built, she should not start starving herself. She needs to learn her limitations, and readjust her expectations and hobbies. She is not likely to meet the today’s technical requirements to medal at the major international events.

People need to learn their limitations, and that they ‘can’t always have what they want”, instead of killing themselves, or!, even worst: trying to set a politically correct agenda to curtail others, and bring DOWN the plank so they can win too.

If one has to starve to do the quads or 3A or pairs lifts, or any other elements, one should not skate, or skate with expectations to medal internationally. But one has no right to limit others, in any shape or form to suite his/her own “limitations”.

Laws of physics and biology (without dna manipulation) are not subjects to "all equalizing social engineering". Nature is nature (since WADA prohibits chemicals)...

 

[pat c]

.........
People need to learn their limitations, and that they ‘can’t always have what they want”, instead of killing themselves, or!, even worst: trying to set a politically correct agenda to curtail others, and bring DOWN the plank so they can win too.

If one has to starve to do the quads or 3A or pairs lifts, or any other elements, one should not skate, or skate with expectations to medal internationally. But one has no right to limit others, in any shape or form to suite his/her own “limitations”.

Laws of physics and biology (without dna manipulation) are not subjects to "all equalizing social engineering". Nature is nature (since WADA prohibits chemicals)...

Good post. Yes I agree, people do need to learn their limitations or learn to overcome them. There are many reasons why athletes/people in general have unrealistic expectations. But the problem exists that skaters are encouraged intentionally or unintentionally to develop unhealthy practises. 1. Unrealistic expectations as you mentioned above. 2. Parents who are party to the unrealistic expectations. And before anyone gets their shirt in a knot........hockey has to be the worst offender. So many parents I know were positive they had the next Gretzky and the kid hadn't even laced on skates yet. 3. Poor coaches. Eyes on the prize rather than realistic view of the talent. 4. Skating Federations - (over generalization). 5. pick one

But the topic is how to discourage eating disorders even with the ones who are the right build, have the talent, but are really sucked down the wormhole in pursuit of something that really won't help them in the long run, competitively, health wise - mental and physical. And as I said, I have no solutions.

Your comment about WADA reminded me of the animated animalympics from the early 80's. It was a hoot.

 

[Tinami Amori]

But the topic is how to discourage eating disorders even with the ones who are the right build, have the talent, but are really sucked down the wormhole in pursuit of something that really won't help them in the long run, competitively, health wise - mental and physical. And as I said, I have no solutions.

Take existing physics formulas and for elements in figure skating (which are affected by weight, height, muscles power), develop such for all elements, put them into an interactive format, where each skater can input his/her own variables (weight, height, current measured statistics of his/her elements, like Japanese jumps analysis) and check if a skater can fit the requirements without body mutilation tactics.. . If one can't, one should think about it..

https://www.real-world-physics-problems.com/physics-of-figure-skating.html

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

I am in agreement that body image issues should not be ignored; that being malnourished or losing muscles for the purpose of a lower weight is a bad idea; or that skaters should not go to the extremes of dehydrating themselves or not eating apples. I just want to challenge the common assumption among many fans here that when a coach says a skater needs to lose weight, it's an unreasonable request. Often this request is unreasonable, but sometimes it might be an objective assessment of the reality. Coach Nakano got a lot of criticism for her comments on Sakamoto's weight, but it was evident that Sakamoto was struggling with jumps during the earlier part of the season when she supposedly had a few more pounds. (That said, she also seemed to have gotten taller, so that may also have played a role.)

The "a chocolate here, a pastry there" habit described by Butyrskaya should not fly in competitive sports. The reality is that in high-level athletics, one needs to make sacrifices.

There's also the possible scenario that a skater should ideally be 2 pounds slimmer, but also a body image problem. Yes, that's a tricky situation to handle, and I wouldn't wish that dilemma on any coach/skater. And indeed for taller or curvier skaters, even a slight change in weight (fat, rather than muscle) could make the skater more vulnerable to injury, so it is a valid concern.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

Hmm.......well ladies in the US seem to have had a ton of eating disorders and now it
seems like Russia has caught that bug too.

My hunch is definitely that body image problems have always been a serious problem, but now they are thankfully openly discussed, whereas before they were swept under the rug. Of course, heavy social media and advertisement plays a role as well.

 

[Japanfan]

The "a chocolate here, a pastry there" habit described by Butyrskaya should not fly in competitive sports. The reality is that in high-level athletics, one needs to make sacrifices.

IIRC Bute was saying that everyone wants a chocolate or a pastry, not that everyone should have them - certainly not if they are living with her with the aim of losing 5 kg per week (which I said elsewhere was not realistic for a tiny woman).

I'm reminded of Tessa Virtue saying that she enjoyed various treats every day in an interview. She said it wasn't an issue, given how many calories she burned in training. Bute said 'no fruit after 12 pm' which I thought was ridiculous (unless an athlete really has to lose weight and is on a high protein diet). An apple has only 75 calories or so (I think?).

And Tessa has a lean, toned and beautiful body, but is not stick thin.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

I'm reminded of Tessa Virtue saying that she enjoyed various treats every day in an interview. She said it wasn't an issue, given how many calories she burned in training. Bute said 'no fruit after 12 pm' which I thought was ridiculous (unless an athlete really has to lose weight and is on a high protein diet). An apple has only 75 calories or so (I think?).

And Tessa has a lean, toned and beautiful body, but is not stick thin.

Every skater is different. I'm sure Tessa (and some other skaters) can get by fine by being a bit indulgent here and there.

 

[bladesofgorey]

"The "a chocolate here, a pastry there" habit described by Butyrskaya should not fly in competitive sports. The reality is that in high-level athletics, one needs to make sacrifices."

Good lord. If a skater is at the elite level they are training hard many hours a week and certainly can afford a chocolate there and a pastry here- if they are eating well and getting all the nourishment they need for optimal health they are going to have to get additional calories from somewhere and having a non-nutritional occasional snack isn't going to effect their fitness or health.

Also, if coach decides a skater needs to lose two pounds I can say with certainty that the coach is insane. Two pounds or more is a normal daily fluctuation for most people, young women especially. Also, when people say a skater needs to drop 5 pounds "because extra fat"- well, there's no way to drop 5 pounds in a relatively (weeks not months) period of time and have all of those 5 pounds be solely fat and not some muscle as well. Bodies don't work like that.

Finally- I was highly involved competitively with a different sport where extreme leanness was important for optimal performance (not aesthetics- aesthetics in this case didn't matter) and let me tell you- the Olympians and national record holders that I had the good fortune to run and socialize with for the most part did not restrict their eating habits as rigidly as people have been suggesting young figure skaters should. Yes there were a couple of outliers who did and they were injured all the time and ended up retiring early, but for the most part these athletes ate as much junk food as the average person (but also more healthy food than the average person as well since they were burning more calories than someone not in training). I also have to say that their coaches were far more enlightened about nutrition and the dangers of encouraging eating disorders because this topic had been, and continues to be, grappled with heavily at the collegiate level.

 

[giselle23]

Anyone who thinks that the desire for thin bodies in skating doesn’t have an aesthetic element is kidding themselves.

 

[Japanfan]

Go ahead change the "culture" and brainwash people into believing that "big is beautiful"

But most female skaters are not big, but lean and usually quite tiny.

The issue is the perception that one can never be thin enough, and fretting so much over weight and the need to lose more of it that eating becomes disordered. And health/fitness may be compromised.

If one has to starve to do the quads or 3A or pairs lifts, or any other elements, one should not skate, or skate with expectations to medal internationally.

While I agree with you, pairs female skaters are in a difficult position should they gain a few pounds because the throws and lifts could become more difficult for their partner. I would think it would be easier for a singles lady skater to adjust her jumps to those few pounds than it would be for a pair skater's partner to adjust. Though I'm no expert, and could be wrong.

In her book, Katerina Gordeeva mentioned that when Sergie had a back injury, the only way she could think to help him was by losing five pounds.

 

[lurkz2]

But it can't be a one-size fits all type of analysis. How else to explain a powerful jumper like Tonya Harding, who didn't fit the light as a feather mold? Does this mean she would have been doing quads if she were a little bit lighter? Men are heavier but have stronger muscles which makes them better jumpers than women. Some women have stronger muscles than other women and could probably compete with more weight--if they could stand the negative reaction from fans, some coaches and, less explicitly, from judges.

I did say same muscular development, such as comparing Butyrskaya at her competitive weight vs. a heavier Butyrskaya.

I think right now coaches are more familiar with the dynamics of having lean and slim-hipped bodies jump (such as Yuzu and Nathan).

This could be changed by the advent of a special type of athlete who would showcase how another body type can exploit the points system, which is why I'm hoping a Simone Biles type of athlete could conquer ladies figure skating. If they can garner enough tech points, I don't think any negative reaction from fans/judges could stop them.

 

[dramagrrl]

This could be changed by the advent of a special type of athlete who would showcase how another body type can exploit the points system, which is why I'm hoping a Simone Biles type of athlete could conquer ladies figure skating. If they can garner enough tech points, I don't think any negative reaction from fans/judges could stop them.

I would love to see that happen. The fact that skaters like Gabby Daleman (who is TINY but ripped) are called "bigger" and Tessa Virtue has been called "fat" repeatedly over the years shows exactly how ridiculous many people (including fans) in the skating world are about how they perceive body types.

 

[canbelto]

I did say same muscular development, such as comparing Butyrskaya at her competitive weight vs. a heavier Butyrskaya.

I think right now coaches are more familiar with the dynamics of having lean and slim-hipped bodies jump (such as Yuzu and Nathan).

This could be changed by the advent of a special type of athlete who would showcase how another body type can exploit the points system, which is why I'm hoping a Simone Biles type of athlete could conquer ladies figure skating. If they can garner enough tech points, I don't think any negative reaction from fans/judges could stop them.

But we've already had the Simone Biles' of figure skating. In fact we've had several. Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Surya Bonaly, Irina Slutskaya, were all powerful jumpers with muscular compact bodies. The fact that so many years later these ladies still maybe have the best jump technique of all time hasn't squashed the craze for small, lithe bodies.

In fact, one thing that always bothered me about coverage about Gordeeva and Grinkov was not a single program ever went by without commentators mentioning how slim and beautiful they were as a pair. And ... they were. However I can't help but think that the fact that Sergei Grinkov looked so slim and fit maybe prevented him from getting the medical care he needed. Looking back in Lillehammer he was making uncharacteristic mistakes and not skating with the same speed as Gordeeva. But again, nonstop gushing about their physical beauty.

It isn't healthy.

 

[lurkz2]

But we've already had the Simone Biles' of figure skating. In fact we've had several. Midori Ito, Tonya Harding, Surya Bonaly, Irina Slutskaya, were all powerful jumpers with muscular compact bodies. The fact that so many years later these ladies still maybe have the best jump technique of all time hasn't squashed the craze for small, lithe bodies.

Didn't they all skate under the 6.0 system? I'm not too sure about Slutskaya, but I think most of her career was spent under 6.0...

I think it might be more doable to win in spite of the aesthetic preferences of judges in IJS, if you can get the TES high enough, compared to the 6.0 system. And someone being extremely dominant with a muscular compact body (a la Biles) will probably make more of an impact.

 

[canbelto]

Didn't they all skate under the 6.0 system? I'm not too sure about Slutskaya, but I think most of her career was spent under 6.0...

I think it might be more doable to win in spite of the aesthetic preferences of judges in IJS, if you can get the TES high enough, compared to the 6.0 system. And someone being extremely dominant with a muscular compact body (a la Biles) will probably make more of an impact.

I'll also note that in Russia, which maybe has the HARSHEST standards of weight and appearance, the last two OGM's were Adelina Sotnikova and Alina Zagitova, who are/were considerably more muscular than Yulia Lipnitskaya and Evgenia Medvedeva. Don't get me wrong they are tiny girls by any standard. But they are not wisps.

 

[Bonjour Sherry]

This could be changed by the advent of a special type of athlete who would showcase how another body type can exploit the points system, which is why I'm hoping a Simone Biles type of athlete could conquer ladies figure skating. If they can garner enough tech points, I don't think any negative reaction from fans/judges could stop them.

Wakaba Higuchi comes to mind as a successful IJS skater with a 'Biles' body. Yoshie Onda and Beatrisa Liang also competed for a bit under IJS. I think their successful was limited more by nerves than by body type.

 

[sharsk8s]

In a bunch of threads people have brought up this issue again. Use this thread as to not clog up other ones that are dedicated to news

 

[Japanfan]

Figure skating requires mental, physical and artistic abilities.
Physical requirements (in figure skating) have a range; a right combination/proportions of weight/height/muscles/coordination and few other elements. Please note I used words “range” and “right proportion of various elements”, and not exact measurements.

But the problem is that a lot of female skaters (and probably some men as well) are not comfortable being with a range that is considered healthy for them - thinner is better, and nothing other than thinner will do.

If a skater does not fit into that range/proportion specifically because of “weight” and inability to correlate it to muscles, strengths, height, then that person has choices:

But if a skater has been training for many years and shown promise and the ability to learn triples, quitting may not be a choice so easily made. Especially if their families have hopes riding on them (i.e. ticket out of poverty) or they and their families have sacrificed a lot for the sport. A girl might not have weight problems until she is 15/16, and by then she may have a whole lifestyle built around skating (i.e. home schooling, one parent not working to accompany her to competitions, having moved away from home to train, perhaps with a family member). Just quitting isn't so easy under those circumstances.

 

[skatfan]

In fact, one thing that always bothered me about coverage about Gordeeva and Grinkov was not a single program ever went by without commentators mentioning how slim and beautiful they were as a pair. And ... they were. However I can't help but think that the fact that Sergei Grinkov looked so slim and fit maybe prevented him from getting the medical care he needed. Looking back in Lillehammer he was making uncharacteristic mistakes and not skating with the same speed as Gordeeva. But again, nonstop gushing about their physical beauty.

It isn't healthy.

Grinkov had a congenital heart defect, his training had nothing to do with that. I frankly have never noticed his speed was an issue in 1994 - where did you see this?

 

[misskarne]

Oh, yay, this absolute trainwreck of a thread is back.

 

[PRlady]

Anyone who thinks that the desire for thin bodies in skating doesn’t have an aesthetic element is kidding themselves.

I agree. I’m thinking of the French song in last night’s Eurovision in which the singer was accompanied by a fat ballerina. The message against fat-shaming was serious but at the end of the day, I don’t want to see fat ballerinas or figure skaters. The aesthetic is part of the look of the art/sport - it doesn’t matter if the novelist or oboist are fat but the visual arts are different.

That doesn’t mean that a range of body types, from Tursy to Sakamoto, isn’t acceptable. It is.

RTA: there’s a photo of French performance embedded in this article, no paywall: https://www.timesofisrael.com/puttin-on-the-glitz-7-things-to-know-for-may-19/

 

[gkelly]

I agree. I’m thinking of the French song in last night’s Eurovision in which the singer was accompanied by a fat ballerina. The message against fat-shaming was serious but at the end of the day, I don’t want to see fat ballerinas or figure skaters. The aesthetic is part of the look of the art/sport - it doesn’t matter if the novelist or oboist are fat but the visual arts are different.

The best dancer in my college ballet class was about 5'5"/150 lbs. She had outgrown a typical ballet body type, but as a fit 20-year-old with high-level skills, she would have been enjoyable to watch in choreography designed to play to her strengths.

That doesn’t mean that a range of body types, from Tursy to Sakamoto, isn’t acceptable. It is.

That's a very narrow range of body types. We already see more than that in figure skating.

The question is whether the technical demands of the sport as it develops will make it less and less possible for skaters outside that narrow range to execute the elements that earn the most technical points under the current rules.

And whether narrowminded aesthetics will limit PCS points for skaters who can execute the elements but whose looks fall outside that narrow range.

 

[PRlady]

The best dancer in my college ballet class was about 5'5"/150 lbs. She had outgrown a typical ballet body type, but as a fit 20-year-old with high-level skills, she would have been enjoyable to watch in choreography designed to play to her strengths.



That's a very narrow range of body types. We already see more than that in figure skating.

The question is whether the technical demands of the sport as it develops will make it less and less possible for skaters outside that narrow range to execute the elements that earn the most technical points under the current rules.

And whether narrowminded aesthetics will limit PCS points for skaters who can execute the elements but whose looks fall outside that narrow range.

5’5” and 150 on a muscular frame isn’t fat. I’m not a ballet superfan but I’m sure your friend could perform well, if not at ABT level.

PCS should be 90% or more performance skills, from skating skill to musicality. There will always be an element of lookism but weight isn’t the only factor, see the post in the original thread about Tennell’s looks.

 

[rfisher]

Oh, yay, this absolute trainwreck of a thread is back.

Better here than cluttering up the Russia thread. There are some of us who are tired of the endless debates by a handful of posters that make it a PITA to scroll past for actual news. Which is precisely why the thread was reactivated.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Better here than cluttering up the Russia thread. There are some of us who are tired of the endless debates by a handful of posters that make it a PITA to scroll past for actual news. Which is precisely why the thread was reactivated.

It's a MAJOR issue in Russian figure skating. Yet you are surprised that it is discussed in the Russian figure skating thread.

 

[rfisher]

It's a MAJOR issue in Russian figure skating. Yet you are surprised that it is discussed in the Russian figure skating thread.

Please discuss all your complaints here. You can argue all you want and we can keep the Russian thread for actual news.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Please discuss all your complaints here. You can argue all you want and we can keep the Russian thread for actual news.

I will discuss my views on the issue where I see fit. Perhaps you can make an official request to the moderators to remove all body image, eating disorder, coach ethics etc. related topic from the country-specific threads, since they are so inconvenient.