The ISU's concussion protocol or lack thereof

[RoseRed]

It's insane that they had them walking off like that. I was at a horse show last year, and there was a bad fall in the show jumping (horse slipped and they both went down). We pulled part of the fence down and they drove the ambulance in to where she was. She didn't end up on a board and walked into the ambulance herself. But that was after they spent a while examining her. And she didn't hit her head - it was her shoulder I think.

Actually, I said it's insane, but I just realized that pretty much the same thing happened to me a few years ago (though not as bad). My horse stopped suddenly before a ditch on the cross country cross, and I went into it and hit my head on the wood board. I stayed down at first, but no one came over, so I got up eventually, then they came. And that was even stupider in some ways, because my horse just stood there at first, and someone could have caught her, but then she went trotting across the field and we had a loose horse, which can also be dangerous.

That one wasn't the medic's fault though - they aren't right there, so the volunteers who are posted at each jump need to call for them if needed on the walkie-talkies. I don't think they called them. But there were people right nearby and they left me lying in the ditch until I sat up. Well, I don't think it was for very long, but it wasn't right away. I had time to think "I should stay down... Oh, is no one coming? Guess I'm getting up". And I was competing in a junior category, so extra not great. I was lucky because I hit my shoulder first, then my head so it wasn't as hard. And unlike skating, we wear really good helmets. I did eventually get checked by the medics, though I think I was told to walk over there by myself because I was up and walking by then. Didn't have a concussion, thankfully. But it was pretty badly handled thinking back.

 

[overedge]

Side note I was totally confused at Skate Canada why Keegan was allowed to continue because they broke all the protocols we have to follow - when I asked was told it is because it is an ISU event not a Canadian event so they follow ISU protocols not ours.

Not disputing what you were told, @rink_mom, but this is all kinds of BS. There's standard medical/first aid practice for treating people with possible head injuries. The ISU may not have a concussion protocol, but that doesn't mean basic first aid procedures can't be followed.

Honestly, after seeing the video and then hearing this, I am . I hope that any skater who is injured because of this lack of protocol sues the ISU for negligence. Personally I would contribute to a GoFundMe to make that happen.

 

[Judy]

We had this happen a while back and a mandatory law now. in this case it was rugby and the young girl didn't tell anyone how she was feeling so she could play. We can't leave it up to kids so now there are specific requirements for coaches etc.

Ontario creates concussion law in memory of 17-year-old rugby player

Ontario will set guidelines to ensure children are taken out of a game if a concussion is suspected, after a bill named for a 17-year-old girl who died from rugby injuries passed Tuesday with rare all-party support.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

 

[maatTheViking]

I was just talking to my husband about concussion protocols in Mountain Bike, and they certainly have them.

I have no desire to watch this, but it's clear enough from everyone's accounts that she should not have gotten herself off the rink, and that O'Shea should have had help to get to medical too.

I think of Usacheava's injury too - she limped off the ice. Why was the warmup not paused? Why was no one there with a wheelchair? Her coach (Danii G?) carried her off to the doctor (I presume), but not all skaters will have the same skater-to-coach size difference so they can be carried that easily.

When watching Messing at SC, I was really concerned.

Today for Andrews, why did she had to hobble to the referee before she could stop the program? Her injury maybe wasn't grave, but I really second a way for the skater to signal a program stop.

This 'the show must go on' attitude needs to stop.

I wish O'Shea and Liu a full and swift recovery.

 

[Judy]

I will never forget what happened to actress Natasha Richardson after a Skiing accident. She had a head injury but she didn't go to the hospital until later (1-2 days?). She lost her life.

The NFL and NBA are taking concussions and other injuries seriously. It is time the ISU did too.

Yes I remember it too as Mont Tremblant isn't that far from Ottawa. She didn't lose consciousness either. Very tragic.

 

[MacMadame]

Not disputing what you were told, @rink_mom, but this is all kinds of BS. There's standard medical/first aid practice for treating people with possible head injuries. The ISU may not have a concussion protocol, but that doesn't mean basic first aid procedures can't be followed.

One of the very first things you learn in first aid class is you never haul someone up who has fallen. You let them get up by themselves. And, if they can't, you know they are seriously hurt and proceed from there. This is true even if a concussion isn't remotely suspected.

Something they told us in an EMT class I took is that more people have been paralyzed from being ripped out of cars by well-meaning onlookers.

 

[jlmart]

https://thecanadian.news/2021/05/01...-seguin-lives-with-severe-concussion-effects/

Julianne Sequin is still suffering badly from the aftereffects of several concussions, requiring help from her parents for the activities of daily life. She has said she thinks her partner Charlie Bilodeau, even though she was angry with him at the time, probably saved her life by refusing to continue competing with her.

 

[Immortelle]

If there are to be no helmets or other safety gear in figure skating, then the injury protocols must be clearly defined and not negotiable. I wonder if there will be cases of CTE diagnosed among skaters as a result of the head knocks we’re seeing today. Clear concussion protocols are vital.

 

[Elka]

I think of Usacheava's injury too - she limped off the ice. Why was the warmup not paused? Why was no one there with a wheelchair? Her coach (Danii G?) carried her off to the doctor (I presume), but not all skaters will have the same skater-to-coach size difference so they can be carried that easily.

She was carried by the Russian team's doctor. But your point of course stands. Not all skaters have a team's doctor or can be carried that easily.

 

[Mayra]

https://thecanadian.news/2021/05/01...-seguin-lives-with-severe-concussion-effects/

Julianne Sequin is still suffering badly from the aftereffects of several concussions, requiring help from her parents for the activities of daily life. She has said she thinks her partner Charlie Bilodeau, even though she was angry with him at the time, probably saved her life by refusing to continue competing with her.

This article I'm devastated for her. Just goes to show we really don't know what happens behind closed doors and the sacrifices being made.

 

[Jammers]

Anyone remember a few years ago when Yanyu was in a collision in the warmup but skated anyways with a towel on his head and then proceeded to flop around on the ice and fall like 4 times? That shit doesn't even happen in the macho NFL anymore so why does the ISU have their heads up their asses? Orser should have inserted himself and said to the judges he's done and not worried about if Hanyu or the Japanese Fed wanted him to skate. Athletes always want to compete but he wasn't even in his right mind so that's when the adults are supposed to take over.

 

[Andrea82]

Thank you! Is there any way we can start compiling a list of the falls this season that resulted in a skater's head hitting the ice? I feel like one way to get the point across is to create a video showing each and every incident where the concussion protocol was completely ignored by the ISU and event organizers at major senior and junior events (ie - any event that is listed on the ISU Events page, plus National Championships and National qualifying competitions such as the USFS NQS, SC Sectionals & Challenge, Russian Cup, Japanese Regionals/Sectionals). My belief is there are a lot more of these incidents than anyone realizes.

Suleymanova hit her head falling after a jump in the FS at NRW Trophy.
She stopped and started crying. She went to the board to talk to referee. At that point you can hear the announcer saying something like "please, can the doctor come over?". After a few minutes, she resumed the program.

She is the second to skate here: https://sportdeutschland.tv/blicker-media/nrw-trophy-2021-tag-4

 

[Orm Irian]

Anyone remember a few years ago when Yanyu was in a collision in the warmup but skated anyways with a towel on his head and then proceeded to flop around on the ice and fall like 4 times? That shit doesn't even happen in the macho NFL anymore so why does the ISU have their heads up their asses? Orser should have inserted himself and said to the judges he's done and not worried about if Hanyu or the Japanese Fed wanted him to skate. Athletes always want to compete but he wasn't even in his right mind so that's when the adults are supposed to take over.

I remember that one. The other skater in that collision was Han Yan and he also skated in the event and fell multiple times, despite the fact that he literally collapsed seconds after hauling himself off the ice and was both concussed and visibly in shock (pretty much the only reason he could get himself off the ice without needing help was that he was in shock as well as concussed). Neither of them should have been allowed anywhere near ice for weeks after that crash.

A few years ago at IIRC World Team Trophy?, Gabrielle Daleman accidentally slammed into Laurine Lecavelier during warmup and fell hard; Laurine wasn't moving fast at the time so she came out of it okay, but Gabrielle was, and though she didn't realise it at the time, she cracked some ribs and got a concussion. She went on to skate in the competition, not well. And there was the time at Worlds when Vanessa James and Matteo Guarise slammed into each other during the warmup for the FS - I can't remember if Matteo ended up with a concussion from that, but I know he had cracked ribs, and both J/C and DM/G skated very shakily so I wouldn't be surprised if he and Vanessa both did. I do know Gabrielle, Matteo and Vanessa all had concussion protocols done at the rink though, and I think there's a big problem with that: sometimes it takes a while for the symptoms of concussion to manifest, or to register over physiological shock associated with a collision or fall. That's why I think medical withdrawal after a head-strike needs to be immediate and mandatory. That way there's less risk of someone skating with a concussion that hasn't fully manifested symptoms yet and compounding the damage.

 

[Hedwig]

I remember Canadian Nationals a couple of years ago - there was a Junior Pairs team that had a horrific fall (in warm-up maybe?) and they were still skating afterwards. Does anyone remember that? So apparently even a concussion protocoll is not enough (since Canada said it has some)

 

[angi]

I remember Canadian Nationals a couple of years ago - there was a Junior Pairs team that had a horrific fall (in warm-up maybe?) and they were still skating afterwards. Does anyone remember that? So apparently even a concussion protocoll is not enough (since Canada said it has some)

It was a junior team - Émy Carignan / Bryan Pierro, he tripped on the twist and didn't catch her and she crashed on the ice at full speed and power (there's a video of it on YouTube that I didn't want to share). They then competed their SP and he carried her off the ice since she wasn't even able to get off of it on her own. She ended up losing a few teeth and I think with a broken knee and wrist or something of that kind. It was another example of complete incompetence when it came to protecting the skaters, and she was a 13 year old junior at the time which makes it even worse.

ETA: Found a post Tinami posted at the time: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-news-and-updates.105667/page-23#post-5728454

 

[Hedwig]

It was a junior team - Émy Carignan / Bryan Pierro, he tripped on the twist and didn't catch her and she crashed on the ice at full speed and power (there's a video of it on YouTube that I didn't want to share). They then competed their SP and he carried her off the ice since she wasn't even able to get off of it on her own. She ended up losing a few teeth and I think with a broken knee and wrist or something of that kind. It was another example of complete incompetence when it came to protecting the skaters, and she was a 13 year old junior at the time which makes it even worse.

ETA: Found a post Tinami posted at the time: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-news-and-updates.105667/page-23#post-5728454

yes that was the one. A stuff to give you nightmares, really. Do you know if she is still skating?

 

[Orm Irian]

By the way, multiple sources are now reporting that both Liu and O'Shea have been diagnosed with concussion and are resting in their hotel rooms: this is the one that crossed my Twitter timeline.

 

[Sylvia]

@Hedwig, Émy Carignan/Bryan Pierro won Quebec Sectionals in Junior Pairs earlier this month and will next compete at Skatee Canada Challenge to qualify for Nationals.

 

[BittyBug]

All this talk about ISU protocols but wasn't that Jenni Meno who walked Liu off the ice? With maybe Todd by her side? (Not sure whether the male was Todd).

 

[Karen-W]

All this talk about ISU protocols but wasn't that Jenni Meno who walked Liu off the ice? With maybe Todd by her side? (Not sure whether the male was Todd).

Todd is in Grenoble with K/F. Not sure who was the male, but yes, it was Meno also assisting her. I want to smack the crap out her for that too.

 

[wickedwitch]

All this talk about ISU protocols but wasn't that Jenni Meno who walked Liu off the ice? With maybe Todd by her side? (Not sure whether the male was Todd).

I don't think coaches should be allowed on the ice when their skater is injured until the medical staff clears them. The coach is unlikely to be thinking rationally -- how could they after a fall like that from one of their skaters -- and has no medical training.

 

[clairecloutier]

I agree. But, if there was no help forthcoming in this case from rink/organization personnel, probably Jenni Meno didn't know what else to do. i guess it would be either help Chelsea off or call 911 Polish equivalent and wait for them to arrive.

 

[wickedwitch]

I agree. But, if there was no help forthcoming in this case from rink/organization personnel, probably Jenni Meno didn't know what else to do. i guess it would be either help Chelsea off or call 911 Polish equivalent and wait for them to arrive.

Yeah, that rule only makes sense in a world where the ISU has a real protocal for head injuries, which would enure medical personnel on hand.

 

[Kateri]

I agree. But, if there was no help forthcoming in this case from rink/organization personnel, probably Jenni Meno didn't know what else to do. i guess it would be either help Chelsea off or call 911 Polish equivalent and wait for them to arrive.

Isn't there supposed to be a referee, isn't this their entire job? I know they hardly ever get to do anything, so maybe they fall asleep, but in theory?

 

[SmallFairy]

I’m sometimes working as a skating coach for both children and adults. I make sure I know basic first aid, and what to do in certain situations, like if a skater hit the head on the ice. It’s my responsibility to know what to do and react correct. High level coaches should definitely know.

I’m so angry and shocked about this whole thing. Jenni could have gone to the ice but should have done nothing, just sat with them, made sure the meds arrived and put Chelsea on a stretcher. Instead she escorted her out. Wtf? There’s no excuse. She’s responsible for her skater.

I totally agree with everything being said in this thread. This needs to be addressed and taken seriously. The interview with Julianne was devastating.

I truly hope both Chelsea and Danny will recover well. All the best to them!

 

[Judy]

This article I'm devastated for her. Just goes to show we really don't know what happens behind closed doors and the sacrifices being made.

I was horrified too. I had no idea this was the end result of her skating career. Absolutely no sport is worth that .

 

[overedge]

I’m sometimes working as a skating coach for both children and adults. I make sure I know basic first aid, and what to do in certain situations, like if a skater hit the head on the ice. It’s my responsibility to know what to do and react correct. High level coaches should definitely know.

I’m so angry and shocked about this whole thing. Jenni could have gone to the ice but should have done nothing, just sat with them, made sure the meds arrived and put Chelsea on a stretcher. Instead she escorted her out. Wtf? There’s no excuse. She’s responsible for her skater.

It looks like the Professional Skaters Association, which Jenni belongs to, requires its member coaches to have at minimum a "concussion training certificate" https://skatepsa.com/ratings
So she should have known how to take care of skaters who might have suffered a concussion.

 

[Coco]

Hope that L/O'S can stay in Warsaw with proper observers/support as long as needed.

I had a bad experience flying after a concussion.

Craniosacral therapy helped me enormously after my concussion. Learned about reading articles about Eric Lindros.

 

[Lacey]

I am very old. When I was about 8, I was skating with a friend where we were holding hands facing each other, I was doing a backwards spiral and she was doing a forwards one. My leg was behind me and ran into someone, it then swooped forwards and I fell with the back of my head hitting the ice first of any part of my body. Fortunately, as was the custom with rink skaters at that time, I was wearing a matching very thick decorated wool sweater and hat. We had Mothers on Ice Duty, the one who rescued me was my 8 year old BF's mom. I was knocked BLIND. I was the 4th child and my mom had dumped me at the rink and gone. They asked me my locker number and I told them one that it was 456 instead of 455. They asked if it was my candy inside, which it wasn't. I said yes, and they let me eat it. I still couldn't see, but they kept me very calm. About 2 hours later, my vision came back and my wandering mom returned. She took me to doc, not hospital. He said I had had a concussion but that if it were not for the hat, I would have had a fractured skull. I will remember every detail of the whole thing forever.

I went on to skate for years, even as an adult. I much later got a job in a school district, in the department where they dealt w. learning disabled kids. One day I realized that the day after my head injury, I had lost my brilliant math ability, and I have struggled with it for the rest of my life to this day. Seriously I went from the top of the class to the bottom. I can speak and write well but I cannot do math. I have trouble with my memory, I think that's connected. I suffer from vertigo, and wonder if it's from that accident. And everyone thought I was just, well, not stupid, but not smart. At this point my parents were deceased. I wanted to tell them, look something happened, and it wasn't my fault. My parents thought I wasn't studying or trying to learn, just didn't care. Everyone was wrong.

I later became Chairperson of that Mother's On Ice group. I am not sure we had the right accident protocols, but I seem to remember we had an ambulance company come & speak with us & we did learn it was ok to call an ambulance for help.

I am so freaked out for all of these poor skaters this week and hope they will be permanently ok. Yes they should be watched this week, but for the rest of their lives also.

 

[Judy]

Has anyone watched the movie Concussion? Maybe more of a documentary movie but I saw it in my theatre years ago. It is about the NFL. I believe it is available on both American and def Cdn Netflix.

My friend and I went and kinda randomly thinking it was a movie .. but I think it is important to watch too.