The Dance Hall 10: The Saitama Samba 2022-2023

[Dobre]

Grimm & Savitskiy's FD.

How cute is that? I missed their events on the JGP this season. I think seeing their improvement this year is the highlight of the dance at the GPF for me.

(Interesting that in all the Nutcracker skating programs I have seen over the years, I have never previously thought about the guy/Nutcracker prince as portraying the Nutcracker).

 

[Ena Grins]

I really thought Hawayek/Baker were the best in the FD, technically and performance-wise. Honestly, even taking into account yesterday's scores they should have been above Fear/Gibson and even challenged for bronze. I love Guignard/Fabbri but there were pretty noticeably shaky today (though I think they should have won the RD).

 

[firstflight]

With regard to comparing H/B and F/G, I think it may be more useful to take F/G out of the picture and just compare H/B’s scores this season with the other 4 teams. There’s progress on that front from last season to this season. Good!

I personally think F/G are just a “unique” scoring team in ice dance. They didn’t even make the FD at 2018 Worlds! Their climb has been quite decoupled from whatever ups and downs other teams were experiencing. They continually had the trajectory of great FD scores outpacing their RD scores, with that gap lessening the past couple of seasons, until the literal rules codified their “entertainment forward” approach into the RD this season. So, this season they’re getting into the 80’s in the RD.

 

[Gris]

Taking stock after the JGPF. By my tally we're looking at a field of up to thirty teams for junior worlds:

And potentially Xuantong Li / Xinkang Wang for China, who recently earned their MTS at Santa Claus Cup.

 

[Colonel Green]

Looking at the six teams in the JGP Final, three of the six age out after this year (Bashynska/Beaumont, Lim/Quan and Bekker/Hernandez) and I tend to think that Mrazkova/Mrazek will also graduate even though they could theoretically do another junior season. Grimm/Savitskiy and Fradji/Fourneaux can also stay junior and presumably will.

 

[Karen-W]

Looking at the six teams in the JGP Final, three of the six age out after this year (Bashynska/Beaumont, Lim/Quan and Bekker/Hernandez) and I tend to think that Mrazkova/Mrazek will also graduate even though they could theoretically do another junior season. Grimm/Savitskiy and Fradji/Fourneaux can also stay junior and presumably will.

Mrazkova/Mrazek's decision might rest on how well the Taschlers do at Worlds, as well as how well they do at Jr Worlds. If they can finish top 10 then that would give CZE two spots at Worlds and make the decision pretty easy. Tough call, for sure, I think.

 

[Dobre]

Quite nice FD performance for Bashynska & Beaumont. Beautifully skated. They made the right choice to compete in juniors this season, IMO. The experience is serving them well in this field of less experienced teams.

About their RD, I do have to say that while I like the music, it's very busy for a tango & they only seem to interpret about one out of every 7 notes. The movement is logical for a tango. I just think maybe the music might lend itself better to a freer interpretation, maybe in a FD?

 

[Belsornia]

Mrazkova/Mrazek's decision might rest on how well the Taschlers do at Worlds, as well as how well they do at Jr Worlds. If they can finish top 10 then that would give CZE two spots at Worlds and make the decision pretty easy. Tough call, for sure, I think.

Taschlers vs Mrazeks is setting up to be an unusual domestic rivalry because they're such similar teams: very closely matched in terms of skating style and strengths and weaknesses. Zanni and co are doing good work with them both, but I wonder if in the longer term one team will feel a need to put a bit of distance between them and move on from Egna.

 

[Colonel Green]

With Canada being (temporarily, one imagines) down to two dance teams at Worlds, Saitama will be a big opportunity for nations to add a second spot that can be more easily defended in subsequent years as long as both teams make the free dance. You'd assume there are seven teams likely to be top ten (the six from the Final plus the third American team, most likely Green/Parsons at this point). So there are three places remaining for the Lithuanians, French, Finns, Czechs, etc. to fill. It would be a shame if the Czechs missed out, since apart from perhaps the French they have the best claim to two spots in terms of team quality. But of course, Spain can tell you how much that gets you.

Followup thought on the juniors, I would say that the JGP Final firms up that Lim/Quan are the default third-place team. They got their RD scores up to the point where the difference between their free dance and their rivals is overpowering.

 

[Rafter]

I wonder how Kaitlin and Jean-Luc just keep going. They must have spines of steel.

I agree. It is an absolute farce that they are behind Fear/Gibson. The quality of the edges, skating skills, transitions, dance holds (do F/G even have any?), overall complexity of choreo is not even comparable.

Judges should be ashamed.

I’m sorry but Lilah Fear is not a good skater. She’s often on two feet and when she’s on one foot she’s hanging on to Gibson for dear life.

I think most of the junior girls in the dance event at the GPF can skate circles around her.

 

[Rafter]

I think C/B just need to fix the middle of the dance. The music lacks dynamics. I think they need something with a beat or faster tempo.
But I love the beginning and the end is solid.
But yeah not their greatest work this season but they skated well here and IMO deserved the silver

I can’t get into C/B FD this year and I thought they looked really slow at the GPF. Their RD music choice and program in general I think is really interesting.

 

[firstflight]

Do Lilah and Lewis have any defenders on here, lol?
They did manage to earn the second highest base value in the FD with this panel, higher than C/B and G/F. Is it more that people disagree with the levels they do earn or disagree with the criteria themselves (as in, if Lilah can earn a L2 on her one foot, then the criteria must be too easy)?

 

[sap5]

C/B's FD finally got to me. It is starting to work and by worlds could be great. They manage to create a mood this time around.
Evita, I still cannot but I do enjoy the waltz part, very charming. The rest, too much theatrics for my taste.
Sad for the Danadians, such a great start to the season but maybe the pressure got to them. Anyway, better now than at worlds.
I don't get H/B scores, their skating quality is obvious. They have a wonderful dancing quality too which is evident in their opening poses.
The Brits are starting to get boring. I appreciate the energy and fun, their choreographic sequence is infectious but after the 3rd competition, it is already slightly tired. That is also why C/B might be on to something because their program has definitely room to grow.

Agree that C/B have room to grow; in a way that G/P do not, imo.

 

[Karen-W]

Agree that C/B have room to grow; in a way that G/P do not, imo.

That's sort of where I'm at. I don't know that G/P can evolve their Evita program much further. I know some of their fans have complained that the only good part is the waltz section, but I have a feeling that the scores they've received so far and this GPF win won't push them to keep revising and refining the program.

C/B are definitely on the right track now, but they know their programs have more work to be done and I expect that we'll see even more changes and improvements by Nationals. Imagine what they can do with seven weeks of uninterrupted training between now and Nationals if that's what they did in just the three weeks between NHK and the GPF.

 

[miffy]

Do Lilah and Lewis have any defenders on here, lol?
They did manage to earn the second highest base value in the FD with this panel, higher than C/B and G/F. Is it more that people disagree with the levels they do earn or disagree with the criteria themselves (as in, if Lilah can earn a L2 on her one foot, than the criteria must be too easy)?

Well I like them. It feels like being a Kerrs fan all over again. They always had really entertaining programmes but their actual skating was often trashed on here. I just tend to enjoy their skating however bad/good it may be, and hope for the best

 

[BlueRidge]

Well I like them. It feels like being a Kerrs fan all over again. They always had really entertaining programmes but their actual skating was often trashed on here. I just tend to enjoy their skating however bad/good it may be, and hope for the best

I'm not in a position to defend them on technique, but I think they are at the moment receiving over-the-top criticism. They are a good team and very good at what they choose to do which emphasizes their strengths. I'm not a big fan of their FD this year because the music drives me up a wall but I keep watching to see just how awful they really are and I come away in fact impressed.

Should they be top 5 in the world? Beats me, but they don't deserve quite the drubbing they are taking on FSU from many people.

 

[Karen-W]

I'm not in a position to defend them on technique, but I think they are at the moment receiving over-the-top criticism. They are a good team and very good at what they choose to do which emphasizes their strengths. I'm not a big fan of their FD this year because the music drives me up a wall but I keep watching to see just how awful they really are and I come away in fact impressed.

Should they be top 5 in the world? Beats me, but they don't deserve quite the drubbing they are taking on FSU from many people.

I agree with this. I like FearGib fine and I don't think she's a horrible skater by any stretch. Their program this season is my least favorite of theirs since they made their splash as the DiscoBrits. I think they could be beaten by a healthy Hawayek/Baker for top 5 in Saitama. Of course, if FBSoer have another FD disaster like they did yesterday, they'll be top 5 regardless, and I'm fine with that.

As others have said, the real battle is going to be for 7th-10th at Worlds. I don't think I'll get my wish, but of the 4 non-USA teams in the mix, I'd sacrifice ReedAmbru. I'd rather have the French, Czech & Finnish #2 teams at Worlds 2024 than the Lithuanian #2 team. Demougeot/Le Mercier or Dupayage/Nabais, the Mrazeks and Orihara/Pirinen are several cuts above Ramanauskaite/Kizala.

 

[trainingdogs82]

Fear & Gibson were quite popular amongst skating fans, and like a breath of fresh air, when they were first began emerging. Particularly with their very popular Disco program. They still are popular, but in reality they have probably been a bit overscored and pushed politcally for awhile now. Nothing drastic, but still noticeable. Since they are well liked and enjoyable, and weren't really close to being medal contenders yet either, it largely went untalked about. Now that they are much closer to the medals it makes sense they will be much more scrutinized, particularly their weaknesses. Just my take.

 

[BlueRidge]

As others have said, the real battle is going to be for 7th-10th at Worlds. I don't think I'll get my wish, but of the 4 non-USA teams in the mix, I'd sacrifice ReedAmbru. I'd rather have the French, Czech & Finnish #2 teams at Worlds 2024 than the Lithuanian #2 team. Demougeot/Le Mercier or Dupayage/Nabais, the Mrazeks and Orihara/Pirinen are several cuts above Ramanauskaite/Kizala.

As a long time fan of Allison Reed, I hate this! Because I have to agree with it, dammit.

 

[Belsornia]

As others have said, the real battle is going to be for 7th-10th at Worlds. I don't think I'll get my wish, but of the 4 non-USA teams in the mix, I'd sacrifice ReedAmbru. I'd rather have the French, Czech & Finnish #2 teams at Worlds 2024 than the Lithuanian #2 team. Demougeot/Le Mercier or Dupayage/Nabais, the Mrazeks and Orihara/Pirinen are several cuts above Ramanauskaite/Kizala.

Reed/Ambrulevicious have my favourite FD of the top ten(ish) this season - plus I've liked Allison with various partners for a long time, so I'm glad to see her still skating and getting some success - so I'm loath to chuck them, but if we're going purely on the basis of setting the 2024 field then I agree. Though France have the advantage of having three spots this year - Demougeot/Le Mercier should make the FD, so Lopareva/Brissaud would only need to finish top 12 to hold two spots.

 

[her grace]

Do Lilah and Lewis have any defenders on here, lol?
They did manage to earn the second highest base value in the FD with this panel, higher than C/B and G/F. Is it more that people disagree with the levels they do earn or disagree with the criteria themselves (as in, if Lilah can earn a L2 on her one foot, then the criteria must be too easy)?

I'm not at all a Fear/Gibson fan, however, credit where it's due: Fear's twizzles are just fine and their lifts are solid and performed well. Their choreo moves are showy and fun. I'm sure Fear/Gibson do deserve to get levels some of the time on the steps. It's easier to achieve certain key steps than it is to consistently perform on deep edges throughout the entire program (something they do not achieve IMO). Much of my consternation is reserved for the judging criteria which has devalued the importance of steps vis-a-vis choreographic elements and the judges who seem constitutionally incapable of varying the individual components to reflect strengths and weaknesses.

As others have said, the real battle is going to be for 7th-10th at Worlds. I don't think I'll get my wish, but of the 4 non-USA teams in the mix, I'd sacrifice ReedAmbru. I'd rather have the French, Czech & Finnish #2 teams at Worlds 2024 than the Lithuanian #2 team. Demougeot/Le Mercier or Dupayage/Nabais, the Mrazeks and Orihara/Pirinen are several cuts above Ramanauskaite/Kizala.

It's sad that fans are almost forced to root against a good team like the Lithuanians who don't have a fellow good team at home due to the current allotment rules.

 

[Dobre]

Fear & Gibson are sitting in front of Hawayek & Baker, and that is why they are getting heavier criticism right now than in the past.

The irony, I think, is that Fear & Gibson are finally getting good enough to deserve to be in the top ten. (Russians or no Russians).

But this is how it goes, you know. The higher you climb, the fiercer the opposition.

The judges used H&B to slap down Chock & Bates, and now the Fear & Gibson fans are paying for the hopes that were raised by H&B fans at Skate America.

 

[deegee]

Fear & Gibson were quite popular amongst skating fans, and like a breath of fresh air, when they were first began emerging. Particularly with their very popular Disco program. They still are popular, but in reality they have probably been a bit overscored and pushed politcally for awhile now. Nothing drastic, but still noticeable. Since they are well liked and enjoyable, and weren't really close to being medal contenders yet either, it largely went untalked about. Now that they are much closer to the medals it makes sense they will be much more scrutinized, particularly their weaknesses. Just my take.

this exactly.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I wouldn't compare Fear/Gibson to the Kerrs: I'd compare them to Coomes/Buckland; I think they were also overrated.

 

[Belsornia]

I wouldn't compare Fear/Gibson to the Kerrs: I'd compare them to Coomes/Buckland; I think they were also overrated.

(because C/B were my faves)

But now you say it, while I think Lewis is more similar as a skater to John Kerr than Nick Buckland, Lilah is more like Penny than Sinead. Aside from the physical similarities, Lewis and John are both physically strong lifting partners, are extrovert performers wih a strong sense of rhythm, and take a side-on approach to some of the traditions of ice dance. Both were also late switchers from singles who lack(ed) the technical foundation of someone who's spent years honing their craft. And both prone to twizzle errors (though no-one as much as John!).

Penny and Lilah are both fearless and acrobatic lifted partners, and they can both hit interesting and unique positions in choreography but you wouldn't say they have good lines. And both tend to have quite shallow edges and struggle in the pattern - though I think some of C/B's difficulties here came from the super-optimal height difference.

Tangentially, I've been impressed by Nick B's coaching of Bekker/Hernandez (and Brown/Hernandez before) and I hope some other young teams choose to work with him. Or that someone bribes him to come back to the UK and teach the kids here how to skate a pattern! He certainly knows what to do even if he couldn't always do it himself.

 

[Dobre]

Looking at Karen's list of qualified dance spots for Worlds (in the TES thread) & thinking that Finland has a good shot at earning a 2nd Worlds berth for next season. (And has a second team that could really use it).

 

[Ena Grins]

I'm wondering if we need a new system for earning Worlds spots than placements at last year's Worlds. It's a lot more noticeable in pairs but when you have teams from Finland and Canada (this year) or the Czech Republic (potentially next year) that are performing well on the GP/Challenger series, seeing rising scores, and showing the ability to compete with similarly-ranked teams, it makes the case for a system that takes into account fall performance instead of/in addition to last year's placements.

 

[Dobre]

Oh, I'm sure the Russians would be ready to back that plan right now.

 

[Colonel Green]

I'm wondering if we need a new system for earning Worlds spots than placements at last year's Worlds. It's a lot more noticeable in pairs but when you have teams from Finland and Canada (this year) or the Czech Republic (potentially next year) that are performing well on the GP/Challenger series, seeing rising scores, and showing the ability to compete with similarly-ranked teams, it makes the case for a system that takes into account fall performance instead of/in addition to last year's placements.

This isn't really a new thing, by any means.

But there's really no perfect system, especially because fall competition opportunities are themselves so uneven (the Grand Prix, especially, is invitation-based).

 

[Dobre]

It's not impossible that the Czech Republic could earn two berths for next year's Worlds with the current system either. Not going to be easy, but they've a shot.